Author Topic: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies  (Read 1694 times)

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Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2019, 02:32:31 am »
The only criticism I can really muster up is it could come across as heavy handed in how it delivers its message.

Manbaby tantrums are still funny though.

Offline Askold

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2019, 05:02:59 am »
The ad also has men stopping the bad behaviour from others. That makes it clear that the ad isn't trying to say that every man is a bad one. I was just watching a TV show where the villain was a guy. Does that mean that the show was an attack on all men? Would it matter if the villain was Black or Asian or LGBT?

The fact that people keep crying about this Gillette ad so much means that either they have no understanding of nuance or they are dishonest in their arguments.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2019, 06:54:28 am »
It's both fascinating and frustrating how it's so difficult for many people to understand how changing a social context can change the implications of a message. I guess it gives a comforting feeling of being more intelligent when you reduce a complex reality into simplified logical abstractions. Trying to pierce this illusion by bringing the complexities of communication and social contexts can be dismissed as being hypocritical and/or insufficiently intellectual.

This reduction can also be used to consciously dismiss any inconvenient context in order to play semantic games where the purpose is to just own the opponent. This type of game can often be an efficient trolling tactic.

Offline rookie

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2019, 01:31:10 pm »
...
The fact that people keep crying about this Gillette ad so much means that either they have no understanding of nuance or they are dishonest in their arguments.

Or that they just want to be offended.

As a beard having flannel shirts wearing tree chopping many man, I'm the opposite of offended or outraged. All Gillette's doing is saying out loud what we men have been told since boyhood. And if don't be a dick offends, maybe they should be offended.
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Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2019, 05:32:49 pm »
You don't have to agree with the detractors, but I think it would be a good idea to at least try and understand where they're coming from rather than just dismissing them.

Offline rookie

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2019, 06:30:18 pm »
It's not that I don't get where they're coming from, please make no misunderstanding of that. And it's because I understand their gripes that I can dismiss them so easily.
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2019, 06:57:55 pm »
It's not that I don't get where they're coming from, please make no misunderstanding of that. And it's because I understand their gripes that I can dismiss them so easily.

It's less the "don't be an asshole" message and more the heavy implication that most men are either sexually harassing bullies or enablers of sexually harassing bullies. Here's a direct quote from the commercial:

Quote from: Gillette
We believe in the best in men. To say the right thing. To act the right way. Some already are in ways big and small. But some is not enough.

Emphasis mine. Askold was correct that it doesn't portray all men in such a negative light. But that doesn't really make it better. Remember this?

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When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. ... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

When you depict a majority of a demographic as being "wrong" in some way, you are going to ruffle some feathers, even if you add the qualifier that some aren't.

It's both fascinating and frustrating how it's so difficult for many people to understand how changing a social context can change the implications of a message. I guess it gives a comforting feeling of being more intelligent when you reduce a complex reality into simplified logical abstractions. Trying to pierce this illusion by bringing the complexities of communication and social contexts can be dismissed as being hypocritical and/or insufficiently intellectual.

This reduction can also be used to consciously dismiss any inconvenient context in order to play semantic games where the purpose is to just own the opponent. This type of game can often be an efficient trolling tactic.

I'm guessing from the context that you're talking about my hypothetical "black" version of this ad. Well, I see where you're coming from, and it's not a 1:1 comparison. But these comparisons aren't necessarily bad. There are times when drawing such comparisons is justified, even if you don't believe in moral universalism like I do. In America, men generally receive longer sentences than women for the same crimes, similar to how things are for black people as compared to white people. Wouldn't you say both are evidence of systemic bias?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:10:20 pm by Chaos Undivided »

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2019, 01:28:19 am »
They're right.  Half measures are worthless.  Either do something when you're able or fuck off.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2019, 01:29:09 am »
Can you define what you mean by moral universalism, because I don't see what that has to do with the shaving commercial.

Toxic masculinity is a thing.  Saying that cultural attitudes exist that say a man must violently dominate others and do other things that are harmful to himself or others to prove himself a real man and that these attitudes cause lots of problems in our society is well supported by modern psychology, sociology and criminology.  The idea that Mexicans are a bunch of rapists is not.  So this is a false comparison.

Offline rookie

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2019, 10:11:24 am »
Chaos, I didn't get the same message you did I guess. However, if you'd like to be offended, may I offer an idea? How about being upset that such a commercial had to be made. That direct quote from the commercial you put up and emphasized was absolutely correct, you know. Some is not enough. Many, even most is not enough. And it really is up to the some, many, most to bring us all up.

Maybe it's generational though? So I'm staring 40 in the face. And I was brought up on what a man is supposed to be and do. From movies, male relatives and family friends, books, all laid out an eerily similar blueprint for being a man. Doing the right thing always featured heavily. Be it a WWII or Vietnam vet, cowboy on screen, or gentle mild mannered man working his ass off to provide for his family, do the right thing always. That's how Xers were brought up. And somewhere we lost that.

Gillette was absolutely right. It is up to Real Men(tm) to curtail the behavior of those calling themselves men without doing Man Responsibilities. Why? Well when Frat Douche drugs her drink, grabs her ass, picks fights, bails on his kids, whatever, he isn't dragging down women. Not to mention stopping such behavior, or trying to, is the right thing to do.
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2019, 01:23:00 pm »
I'm guessing from the context that you're talking about my hypothetical "black" version of this ad. Well, I see where you're coming from, and it's not a 1:1 comparison. But these comparisons aren't necessarily bad. There are times when drawing such comparisons is justified, even if you don't believe in moral universalism like I do. In America, men generally receive longer sentences than women for the same crimes, similar to how things are for black people as compared to white people. Wouldn't you say both are evidence of systemic bias?

I was musing based on your post but I was not answering to you. Arguing with your type about this is just a waste of energy. If this insults you you can blame a certain previous member of this forum: I simply don't have any fucks left to give when it comes to debating with pigheaded "centrists" about anything related to social justice.

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2019, 01:36:46 pm »
Can you define what you mean by moral universalism, because I don't see what that has to do with the shaving commercial.

Toxic masculinity is a thing.  Saying that cultural attitudes exist that say a man must violently dominate others and do other things that are harmful to himself or others to prove himself a real man and that these attitudes cause lots of problems in our society is well supported by modern psychology, sociology and criminology.  The idea that Mexicans are a bunch of rapists is not.  So this is a false comparison.

Moral universality (also known as moral universalism and moral objectivism) is basically the idea of one standard for everybody, regardless of culture, race, creed, etc. I brought it up in response to SCarplean claiming that changing a social context can change a message's implications.

But back on topic. I'm not entirely sure you understand where I'm coming from. What I'm saying is that people are objecting to the heavy implication that only "some" men are saying the right things and acting the right way.

Chaos, I didn't get the same message you did I guess. However, if you'd like to be offended, may I offer an idea? How about being upset that such a commercial had to be made. That direct quote from the commercial you put up and emphasized was absolutely correct, you know. Some is not enough. Many, even most is not enough. And it really is up to the some, many, most to bring us all up.

Maybe it's generational though? So I'm staring 40 in the face. And I was brought up on what a man is supposed to be and do. From movies, male relatives and family friends, books, all laid out an eerily similar blueprint for being a man. Doing the right thing always featured heavily. Be it a WWII or Vietnam vet, cowboy on screen, or gentle mild mannered man working his ass off to provide for his family, do the right thing always. That's how Xers were brought up. And somewhere we lost that.

Gillette was absolutely right. It is up to Real Men(tm) to curtail the behavior of those calling themselves men without doing Man Responsibilities. Why? Well when Frat Douche drugs her drink, grabs her ass, picks fights, bails on his kids, whatever, he isn't dragging down women. Not to mention stopping such behavior, or trying to, is the right thing to do.

Did this really "have" to be made? Most men don't do the kind of things shown in the commercial, and those who do probably won't stop just because a shaving company wagged its metaphorical finger at them. While encouraging men to stop this kind of thing isn't inherently a bad thing, it's probably not going to help much. This is because men - and indeed, people - generally don't approve of bullying or sexual harassment, which is why it usually happens behind closed doors, not in broad daylight as the commercial claims.

Like I said, I'm not asking you to be offended. What do I care how you think about a commercial? I'm just asking you to not simply brush off the people who are.

I'm guessing from the context that you're talking about my hypothetical "black" version of this ad. Well, I see where you're coming from, and it's not a 1:1 comparison. But these comparisons aren't necessarily bad. There are times when drawing such comparisons is justified, even if you don't believe in moral universalism like I do. In America, men generally receive longer sentences than women for the same crimes, similar to how things are for black people as compared to white people. Wouldn't you say both are evidence of systemic bias?

I was musing based on your post but I was not answering to you. Arguing with your type about this is just a waste of energy. If this insults you you can blame a certain previous member of this forum: I simply don't have any fucks left to give when it comes to debating with pigheaded "centrists" about anything related to social justice.

Wow, judgmental much?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 03:46:55 pm by Chaos Undivided »

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2019, 01:53:08 pm »
Somebody is feeling a bit butthurt?

Offline rookie

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2019, 03:50:55 pm »
Ok, let's clear something up real quick. Gillette isn't trying to change the world. They're trying to sell grossly overpriced shaving products. Company, profits, fuck all else. Same page? Good. Now we can move on to what the hell were they trying to do with this marketing campaign.
That add wasn't for the dude beating his wife. It wasn't for the sleazy guy at the end of the bar hitting on every woman walking to the restroom. It was for "most men" who are doing the right thing. It was saying call out the people not going the right thing. Hell, maybe even stop them.

Tell me, do you also get mad at adds telling you to not drink and drive? Or to get help if you have an addiction? How about those weight loss guys? Are they telling you you're fat?
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2019, 04:35:59 pm »
That's for people that actually get offended by being called a fat, slovenly loser.  Folks need to learn from yours truly and just accept that they're complete pieces of shit.
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