Author Topic: The most important announcement on this thread.  (Read 2657 times)

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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2018, 08:12:43 pm »
The pagan conquerors still for the most part allowed Christians religious freedom and Christianity still flourished. Being a remnant of the Roman Empire made the Church the successor. And Church approval legitimizes mostly former pagan conquers because since they are legitimized, legitimacy is then based on who their legitimate successors are..
Well then, if the approval of the church trumps lineage, then every king up to Henry VIII has been legitimate, as their coronations were presided over and therefore obviously approved by the church. If church approval is good enough to legitimise pagans, then surely it's more than enough to legitimise actual Catholics, right?

I never said tha approval of the Church trumps lineage. I said that it legitimizes pagans and that further legitimacy comes from the lineage of the legitimized pagans.
But it does Trump lineage because by your own admission it means that the current, formerly pagan rulers and not the descendants of the previous government are the "true rulers".

The Catholic Church was the successor of the Western Roman Empire so the rulers were legitimized by the successors of the previous government.

Remnant they may be, but that does not mean they have the authority to legitimise one dynasty over another. If they do, then your search for a True Heir is moot because the Church happily coronated kings of different lineages, and later on failed to even try to challenge the Anglican Church doing the exact same thing. So either the Church does have the authority to legitimise previously illegitimate rulers, in which case Elizabeth II is the True Monarch of England, or it does not, in which case the direct descendent of Flavius Honorius Augustus as per the relevant succession laws is the one and only True Heir to not only England, but the entire rest of the former Western Roman Empire.

You can't have it both ways, Jakington.

It is not that hard to understand. The RCC legitimized rulers so they must have legitimate succession from them. Therefore the first legitimization is the most important and the coronations of monarchs of different lineages are illegitimate because they violate the previous coronations.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 08:16:31 pm by Jacob Harrison »

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2018, 08:23:47 pm »
It is not that hard to understand. The RCC legitimized rulers so they must have legitimate succession from them. Therefore the first legitimization is the most important and the coronations of monarchs of different lineages are illegitimate because they violate the previous coronations.
And yet you're perfectly happy for your "first" legitimisation to permanently disinherit the heirs of the previous, Church backed ruler. Again, either the Church can legitimise new dynasties while disinheriting the previous, or it can't. Pick one.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2018, 08:40:26 pm »
It is not that hard to understand. The RCC legitimized rulers so they must have legitimate succession from them. Therefore the first legitimization is the most important and the coronations of monarchs of different lineages are illegitimate because they violate the previous coronations.
And yet you're perfectly happy for your "first" legitimisation to permanently disinherit the heirs of the previous, Church backed ruler. Again, either the Church can legitimise new dynasties while disinheriting the previous, or it can't. Pick one.

But the first legitimizations did not disinherit the heirs to  previous rulers because the RCC were the successors to the previous rulers.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2018, 08:48:56 pm »
You are completely ignoring Askold's point, deliberately one presumes. Your fixation on lineages is dependent on familial lines, the RCC did not have a familial line of succession but the Byzantine empire did.

They were hereditary successors of those who were given the Eastern half of the Empire when it was divided, as they were not given the Western half. The Roman Empire has dynasties but wasn’t strictly hereditary as there were multiple dynasties. Therefore he RCC is the successor of the Western half.
By the time of the last Emperor the western Roman empire was being divvies up by Goths and Vandals, that last Emperor was the vassal of one. The Catholic church wasn't the arm of a state it was the remnant of one, power lay with those foreign kings. The church wasn't powerless but it toed the line for them, not the other way around.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2018, 09:02:55 pm »
You are completely ignoring Askold's point, deliberately one presumes. Your fixation on lineages is dependent on familial lines, the RCC did not have a familial line of succession but the Byzantine empire did.

They were hereditary successors of those who were given the Eastern half of the Empire when it was divided, as they were not given the Western half. The Roman Empire has dynasties but wasn’t strictly hereditary as there were multiple dynasties. Therefore he RCC is the successor of the Western half.
By the time of the last Emperor the western Roman empire was being divvies up by Goths and Vandals, that last Emperor was the vassal of one. The Catholic church wasn't the arm of a state it was the remnant of one, power lay with those foreign kings. The church wasn't powerless but it toed the line for them, not the other way around.

From the Wikipedia article on the Western Roman Empire

“In historiography, the Western Roman Empire refers to the western provinces of the Roman Empire at any time during which they were administered by a separate independent Imperial court, coequal with that administering the eastern provinces, referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire.” Therefore the Western Emperor’s power was equal to that of the Eastern Empire and the Catholic Church is it’s remnant.

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2018, 09:15:00 pm »
But the first legitimizations did not disinherit the heirs to  previous rulers because the RCC were the successors to the previous rulers.
As I said, it disinherited the rightful heirs of Flavius Honorius Augustus. If the Church had the authority to do that, then it had the authority to coronate future usurpers as it saw fit.

Both ways. You cannot have it.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2018, 03:18:12 am »
But the first legitimizations did not disinherit the heirs to  previous rulers because the RCC were the successors to the previous rulers.
As I said, it disinherited the rightful heirs of Flavius Honorius Augustus. If the Church had the authority to do that, then it had the authority to coronate future usurpers as it saw fit.

Both ways. You cannot have it.

The Roman Empire was not strictly hereditary, Flavius Honorius Augustus’ dynasty in the Western Empire was replaced before it’s fall, and he did not have known descendants by the time the pagan European rulers converted and were legitimized. The Catholic Church was therefore the rightful successors to Flavius Honorius Augustus.

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2018, 03:58:42 am »
The Roman Empire was not strictly hereditary, Flavius Honorius Augustus’ dynasty in the Western Empire was replaced before it’s fall
Yes, and the crown changed dynasties a number of times throughout England's history as well, as you are no doubt aware. Yet when the title changes families, as it often does in any feudal government, it's a heinous injustice which simply must be corrected at all costs, even if the Rightful Heir of this week himself doesn't give a shit. In fact, I believe your exact words were:
And have the rightful heirs continue to be deprived of what is rightfully theirs which they have been deprived of since 1189? Never!
So, I guess it was okay for the heirs to have what's rightfully theirs given taken away without their knowledge, much less consent, with the backing of the Church before 1189 (or 879 nowadays), but not after. Again, double standards.
and he did not have known descendants by the time the pagan European rulers converted and were legitimized. The Catholic Church was therefore the rightful successors to Flavius Honorius Augustus.
So, conspiracies to commit treason, start not just one but several blatant wars of aggression between nuclear powers and even kidnap and rape reluctant would-be monarchs are totally cool, but a bit of research is going to far? Then again, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given your stance on the king's vassals. Double standards for the sake of blatant laziness. Yeah, you're a real inspiration to the cause, Jakey boy.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2018, 08:10:51 am »
You are completely ignoring Askold's point, deliberately one presumes. Your fixation on lineages is dependent on familial lines, the RCC did not have a familial line of succession but the Byzantine empire did.

They were hereditary successors of those who were given the Eastern half of the Empire when it was divided, as they were not given the Western half. The Roman Empire has dynasties but wasn’t strictly hereditary as there were multiple dynasties. Therefore he RCC is the successor of the Western half.
By the time of the last Emperor the western Roman empire was being divvies up by Goths and Vandals, that last Emperor was the vassal of one. The Catholic church wasn't the arm of a state it was the remnant of one, power lay with those foreign kings. The church wasn't powerless but it toed the line for them, not the other way around.

From the Wikipedia article on the Western Roman Empire

“In historiography, the Western Roman Empire refers to the western provinces of the Roman Empire at any time during which they were administered by a separate independent Imperial court, coequal with that administering the eastern provinces, referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire.” Therefore the Western Emperor’s power was equal to that of the Eastern Empire and the Catholic Church is it’s remnant.
You are of course referring to the Western Empire that collapsed. Collapsed as in Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, yes?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2018, 09:34:18 am »
The Roman Empire was not strictly hereditary, Flavius Honorius Augustus’ dynasty in the Western Empire was replaced before it’s fall
Yes, and the crown changed dynasties a number of times throughout England's history as well, as you are no doubt aware. Yet when the title changes families, as it often does in any feudal government, it's a heinous injustice which simply must be corrected at all costs, even if the Rightful Heir of this week himself doesn't give a shit. In fact, I believe your exact words were:
And have the rightful heirs continue to be deprived of what is rightfully theirs which they have been deprived of since 1189? Never!
So, I guess it was okay for the heirs to have what's rightfully theirs given taken away without their knowledge, much less consent, with the backing of the Church before 1189 (or 879 nowadays), but not after. Again, double standards.

and he did not have known descendants by the time the pagan European rulers converted and were legitimized. The Catholic Church was therefore the rightful successors to Flavius Honorius Augustus.
So, conspiracies to commit treason, start not just one but several blatant wars of aggression between nuclear powers and even kidnap and rape reluctant would-be monarchs are totally cool, but a bit of research is going to far? Then again, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given your stance on the king's vassals. Double standards for the sake of blatant laziness. Yeah, you're a real inspiration to the cause, Jakey boy.

As I said, the Roman Empire was not strictly hereditary so succession to them is not solely based on descent.

Offline Askold

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2018, 09:49:58 am »
And since the western parts of the Roman empire fell the Byzantine became the last remaining part of Rome.

Claiming that the Catholic church somehow embodies the Roman empire is like saying that India is the successor to British Empire.
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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2018, 10:01:46 am »
As I said, the Roman Empire was not strictly hereditary so succession to them is not solely based on descent.
It was enough of a thing that the emperor's sons would have a legitimate claim on its lands. A claim that cannot be rightfully handed off to a pagan conqueror without their consent.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2018, 10:30:37 am »
And since the western parts of the Roman empire fell the Byzantine became the last remaining part of Rome.

Claiming that the Catholic church somehow embodies the Roman empire is like saying that India is the successor to British Empire.

But since the Byzantine Emperors were the heirs to those who were given the Eastern part, they had no claim to the Western part. The fact that the Catholic Church is the successor of the Western part is shown when the Pope had the power to crown Charlemagne Emperor of the Romans, and later crowned Otto the Great and his successors as Holy Roman Emperor.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2018, 10:32:34 am »
As I said, the Roman Empire was not strictly hereditary so succession to them is not solely based on descent.
It was enough of a thing that the emperor's sons would have a legitimate claim on its lands. A claim that cannot be rightfully handed off to a pagan conqueror without their consent.

From the Wikipedia article on the Roman Emperor. “The Romans considered the office of emperor to be distinct from that of a king. The first emperor, Augustus, resolutely refused recognition as a monarch.[1] Although Augustus could claim that his power was authentically republican, his successor, Tiberius, could not convincingly make the same claim.[2] Nonetheless, for the first three hundred years of Roman Emperors, from Augustus until Diocletian, a great effort was made to emphasize that the Emperors were the leaders of a Republic.

From Diocletian onwards, emperors ruled in an openly monarchic style[3] and did not preserve the nominal principle of a republic, but the contrast with "kings" was maintained: although the imperial succession was generally hereditary, it was only hereditary if there was a suitable candidate acceptable to the army and the bureaucracy,[4] so the principle of automatic inheritance was not adopted. Elements of the Republican institutional framework (senate, consuls, and magistrates) were preserved until the very end of the Western Empire.”

So the descendants of an Emperor would not have a claim based solely on descent.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2018, 04:37:56 pm »
Yet here you are, adopting the inherited kingship of Rome's Germanic barbarian invaders as holy writ and insisting that the people of Britain and Northern Ireland put up with some guy that you say should own the place because of Germanic non Roman inheritance traditions.

Which is it? Are you in favor of Roman republicanism or the inherited monarchies of the Franks, Saxons, Vandals, Goths and other people who jumped all over your beloved Rome?