Author Topic: State Of the Union  (Read 13003 times)

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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2013, 04:38:53 pm »
Yeah we've tried a few Gitmo guys in civie courts and they were convicted.  So why the issue anyways we have evidence

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2013, 06:21:09 pm »
Quote
One country: "a large number".

Are.....er......what are you.........eh......

Seriously, what the hell argument are you trying to make? I can't come up with any kind of rebuttal, referenced with facts or otherwise, because there is literally no argument in your post. Can't you come up with something better than flippant one or two-line statements or single terms and just expect them to prove your argument for you? I don't know what you're for or against except in the vaguest terms, and I have a feeling you don't know much more than I do about your position either.
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2013, 07:32:36 pm »
Ltfred only likes complex situations when it suits him.

Right. So the president has the power to imprison innocent people for decades, but not to charter a jet to take those innocent people back to the country they are a citizen of.

Do you think the president should routinely violate the law or not?

You forget that the President is not an all powerful dictator and still needs congress to do many things.  Not only that but some countries do not want some of these people back.

Now as far as violating the law, well congress passed a bill allowing indefinite detentions in some situations so the President is not breaking the law in that respect.  However I do think that sometimes laws can and should be ignored when it serves to protect people.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2013, 11:50:13 pm »
Quote
and now everyone is legally required to purchase health care.

As is done in a large number of prosperous first world countries...


Switzerland constitutes "a large number of prosperous first world countries". You said that more than one country requires people to purchase health care, in fact Switzerland is it. Every other (described) country has some sort of best-practice government health insurance program in place.

You forget that the President is not an all powerful dictator and still needs congress to do many things. 

Right. I think the US president is a powerful dictator, able to violate people's rights by chartering jet aircraft. You, however, believe in a democratic president limited by a constitution he can violate at will.

Try to keep a modicum of honesty here.

Quote
Now as far as violating the law, well congress passed a bill allowing indefinite detentions in some situations

You actually have no case. These are not open questions, where people can reasonably have differing views. Holding people in prison without charges is simply a violation of law (Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 2004), (Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 2006), (Boumediene v. Bush, 2008), (Rasul v. Bush, 2004). This is not an open dispute. End of story. The president may choose to release these people or to immediately charge them or to be impeached. There are no other options available.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 11:52:09 pm by Lt. Fred »
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2013, 12:29:14 am »
Quote
Switzerland constitutes "a large number of prosperous first world countries". You said that more than one country requires people to purchase health care, in fact Switzerland is it. Every other (described) country has some sort of best-practice government health insurance program in place.

You still have yet to explain your point. I want to hear YOU in YOUR terms (this should be good) explain the Swiss and new American health care policies, and how they're inferior to others or what was previously in place. All you've done so far is make a few sentences (at most) of vague and occasionally meaningless text and expect me to be satisfied. I don't even know what your argument is yet! I don't even know if you HAVE an argument, rather than just babbling nonsensically.

Quote
Right. I think the US president is a powerful dictator, able to violate people's rights by chartering jet aircraft. You, however, believe in a democratic president limited by a constitution he can violate at will.

Try to keep a modicum of honesty here.

What.....okay, I still don't know what this is supposed to say. Do you actually speak English?

Quote
You actually have no case. These are not open questions, where people can reasonably have differing views. Holding people in prison without charges is simply a violation of law (Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 2004), (Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 2006), (Boumediene v. Bush, 2008), (Rasul v. Bush, 2004). This is not an open dispute. End of story. The president may choose to release these people or to immediately charge them or to be impeached. There are no other options available.

Hamdi v Rumsfeld: The Supreme Court recognized the power of the government to detain enemy combatants, including U.S. citizens, but ruled that detainees who are U.S. citizens must have the rights of due process, and the ability to challenge their enemy combatant status before an impartial authority. It's not what you say it says.

Hamdan v Rumsfeld: Held that President George W. Bush did not have authority to set up the war crimes tribunals and finding the special military commissions illegal under both military justice law and the Geneva Conventions. It's not what you say it says.

Boumediene v. Bush: The Supreme Court ruled that foreign detainees held by the United States, including those at Guantanamo Bay detention camp, have the right of habeas corpus under the US constitution, as the US had sole authority at the Guantanamo Bay base. It held that the 2006 Military Commissions Act was an unconstitutional suspension of that right. The Act was signed into law by Bush and was overturned by the Supreme Court. It was signed in an amended form in 2009 by Obama, and Obama appointees had actually attempted to include new rules that would have led to charges of murder being dropped from a third of Guantanamo detainees. It's not what you say it says.

Rasul v. Bush: Established that the U.S. court system has the authority to decide whether foreign nationals (non-U.S. citizens) held in Guantanamo Bay were wrongfully imprisoned. It's not what you say it says.

tl;dr You're wrong. This is not an opinion or an insult. You are quite simply contradictory to the facts, and therefore more wrong than you could possibly be without declaring that Obama is a ham sandwich.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2013, 12:33:26 am »
Nonsense. You're simply lying.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2013, 01:38:47 am »
Nonsense. You're simply lying.

...

Get the fuck out of here.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2013, 01:44:44 am »
No, I'm serious. Get out.

I have rarely met anyone more blatantly dishonest than you. I posted text explaining exactly how you got your facts wrong, and you have no rebuttal but to accuse me of lying? If you'd bother to do five seconds of research, you'd be able to confirm exactly what I said. But that would involve admitting that you were wrong, wouldn't it? Can't have that!

You have no interest in debate. You only care about thinking that you're right. You have no place in any circle that actually values intelligence or reasoning or the ability to fucking use Google. You have simply spouted your mouth without care or knowledge of what you were saying.

Go find some other board to stink up with your ignorance.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2013, 01:50:05 am »
I would like to remind all of you here that personal attacks are best left to Flame and Burn.
Mockery of ideas you don't comprehend or understand is the surest mark of unintelligence.

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2013, 02:26:40 am »
Why make a response? You'll either claim not to be able to read it or tie yourself into knots to 'prove' that case law doesn't mean what it says. Or you might ask me to prove a red herring. I don't see the need to continue this.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2013, 02:38:56 am »
Nonsense. You're simply lying.

By the way, this is flame-baiting, Fred.

I'm going to let you off easy this time, but please refrain from provoking other people in this manner in the future.
Mockery of ideas you don't comprehend or understand is the surest mark of unintelligence.

Even the worst union is better than the best Walmart.

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2013, 03:12:01 am »
      US constitution: "nor shall any person . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

      • "We can hold you without due process of law!" Nope: (Hamdi, 2004)
      • US government: "we don't need due process; you're overseas!" Wrong: (Rasul v. Bush, 2004}
      • "But you're a foreigner, that means you have no rights!" Nope: (Boumediene v. Bush, 2008)
    • "Shut up Supreme Court, noone asked you!" (Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 2006)

Your conclusions were aggressively, offensively wrong. I apologise for flame-baiting (If that's what I did), I don't apologise for accurately describing your lying.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 03:13:51 am by Lt. Fred »
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2013, 08:33:06 am »
I'll let other people handle Lt. Fred from this point forward. I refuse to speak with him on principal as of now.
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2013, 10:11:04 am »
Right. I think the US president is a powerful dictator, able to violate people's rights by chartering jet aircraft. You, however, believe in a democratic president limited by a constitution he can violate at will.

Try to keep a modicum of honesty here.

You again forget Congress and there role.  You simply do not understand the US government.

You actually have no case. These are not open questions, where people can reasonably have differing views. Holding people in prison without charges is simply a violation of law (Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 2004), (Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 2006), (Boumediene v. Bush, 2008), (Rasul v. Bush, 2004). This is not an open dispute. End of story. The president may choose to release these people or to immediately charge them or to be impeached. There are no other options available.

There is the current option, keep doing it until Congress says stop.  Who is that has the power to impeach the President of the United States?  It is not the Supreme Court.  So the court can make what ever ruling they like but unless the US Congress forces the President to do do it nothing will happen. 

It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. ~Macbeth

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2013, 07:52:43 pm »
Right. I think the US president is a powerful dictator, able to violate people's rights by chartering jet aircraft. You, however, believe in a democratic president limited by a constitution he can violate at will.

Try to keep a modicum of honesty here.

You again forget Congress and there role. 

Congress, of course, has total power, including all executive power. The president is just a meaningless figurehead, without even the power to charter aircraft.

But it's me who doesn't understand US government, though.

You actually have no case. These are not open questions, where people can reasonably have differing views. Holding people in prison without charges is simply a violation of law (Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 2004), (Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 2006), (Boumediene v. Bush, 2008), (Rasul v. Bush, 2004). This is not an open dispute. End of story. The president may choose to release these people or to immediately charge them or to be impeached. There are no other options available.

There is the current option, keep doing it until Congress says stop. [/quote]

That option is not within the law.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR