Author Topic: State Of the Union  (Read 12981 times)

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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 09:39:19 pm »
Not quite he actually got rid of the guy who was supposed to be in cahrge of getting rid of it

Did you forget that congress barred him from bringing any GITMO prisoners to the US, or that many of the people still there do not have any countries willing to take them?

Why are we still paying attention to what this liar says? The only thing he's half delivered on is health care reform, and even that was a half-assed capitulation to the health care industry.

Well you have no idea what you are talking about.  Perhaps you should find out what the health care laws does and look at the other things the President has accomplished.
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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 09:50:22 pm »
Why are we still paying attention to what this liar says? The only thing he's half delivered on is health care reform, and even that was a half-assed capitulation to the health care industry.

Well you have no idea what you are talking about.  Perhaps you should find out what the health care laws does and look at the other things the President has accomplished.
Yes. For example, did you know he's contributed to a skyrocketing death toll in Pakistan? And he fought for the  National Defense Authorization Act which would allow indefinite detention of American citizens? As for Gitmo? I doubt he gives a shit.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 10:23:02 pm »
People who accuse Obama of going back on his promises or engaging in unsavory activities should look closer at the pressure put on him by Republicans in those matters. The GOP was one of the biggest obstacles to getting anything done during his first term, as they seemed to fight against anything put forward by the left and tried to force a compromise on everything simply on principle. The POTUS doesn't have nearly as much power as people seem to think; he's not a dictator. It's even worse when getting the people in the other party to work with you instead of fighting you just 'cause is like pulling teeth.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 10:24:47 pm by chitoryu12 »
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Offline dpareja

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 10:32:42 pm »
People who accuse Obama of going back on his promises or engaging in unsavory activities should look closer at the pressure put on him by Republicans in those matters. The GOP was one of the biggest obstacles to getting anything done during his first term, as they seemed to fight against anything put forward by the left and tried to force a compromise on everything simply on principle. The POTUS doesn't have nearly as much power as people seem to think; he's not a dictator. It's even worse when getting the people in the other party to work with you instead of fighting you just 'cause is like pulling teeth.

It's because whenever anything happens, the President looks like he's gotten something done, which gives him a bump in the polls. The less he appears to have done (because of a compromise, for instance) the smaller the bump and the faster it can vanish. It is, ultimately, in the Republicans' best interests not to let Obama accomplish much.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 10:50:44 pm »
Neil Macdonald's analysis.

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It never fails. The time to start listening closely is always after you hear the word “but.”

And, after Barack Obama uttered that word last night in his state of the union address, he duly delivered the kicker — that a little more than a month after extracting a hefty tax hike from wealthy Americans, he wants more.

Not surprising, perhaps, to anyone with a basic understanding of the way the U.S. operates. And probably unavoidable.

The seminal fact of governing in this nation is that its people fancy themselves committed to small government, but aren’t.

Government spending, or as Obama likes to call it, “investing,” accounts for about 40 cents of every dollar in the American economy —more or less exactly the proportion the government occupies in the Canadian economy, which, according to U.S. political myth, is driven by socialism.

At the same time, Americans balk fiercely at paying for the services they demand — far more so than Canadians, who aren’t keen on remitting huge chunks of their income to government, but seem to understand it’s the price of public services.

An interesting take on the speech and thank you, Neil, for calling them out for their bullshit about not being a welfare state et cetera.

Except we spend a pittance on the military (by comparison) so our 40 cents actually goes a lot farther towards public/social services. Perhaps that's why we don't mind paying taxes; we actually see some benefit from them.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 11:47:07 pm »
Not quite he actually got rid of the guy who was supposed to be in cahrge of getting rid of it

Did you forget that congress barred him from bringing any GITMO prisoners to the US, or that many of the people still there do not have any countries willing to take them?

There's actually not a choice here. If congress passes a law preventing any prosecution of these people- that's what it did, right?- then they get immediately released. There are no other legal options. Holding them in prison without charge is a violation of the constitution and grounds for impeachment.

Sure, a handful of these people are actually guilty of things. If congress refuses to imprison them legally, they can't be imprisoned at all.
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Offline Her3tiK

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 03:17:58 am »
People who accuse Obama of going back on his promises or engaging in unsavory activities should look closer at the pressure put on him by Republicans in those matters. The GOP was one of the biggest obstacles to getting anything done during his first term, as they seemed to fight against anything put forward by the left and tried to force a compromise on everything simply on principle. The POTUS doesn't have nearly as much power as people seem to think; he's not a dictator. It's even worse when getting the people in the other party to work with you instead of fighting you just 'cause is like pulling teeth.
He could most certainly at least appear to put up a fight. Obama ran the first campaign on closing Gitmo, ending the wars in the Middle East, and establishing a Single Payer health system. Of these things, Gitmo has been abandoned as a cause, we only left Iraq because the new government got tired of our shit, while we "wind down" in Afghanistan and bomb Libya to "help the resistance" (good thing that logic carries to Syria), and now everyone is legally required to purchase health care. Obama didn't even come out in support of gay equality until Biden gaffed and the polls were in his favor. The guy's more interested in looking bipartisan than he is in keeping his promises or upholding the agenda that got him elected. If he really believed the things he said, one would think he'd put more effort into defending them; it's not like the Repubs have made hard targets for mockery and ridicule.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 05:53:40 am »
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we only left Iraq because the new government got tired of our shit

Obama promised to end the war. Despite the right wanting us to remain and Mitt Romney campaigning on a platform of extending the Middle East conflicts for years, Obama had all troops out in less than 3 years and plans on having tens of thousands out of Afghanistan this year. Again, he's doing the best he can with the Republicans trying to block as much as they can.

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and bomb Libya to "help the resistance" (good thing that logic carries to Syria)

Wrong. As in, factually wrong. NATO, as well as Jordan, Sweden, and the United Arab Emirates, all participated in enforcing a no-fly zone and protecting civilians, voted on by the United Nations Security Council. The only bombings that occurred were of government targets that had been involved in the deaths of neutral civilians. Had NATO actually planned on helping the resistance, it would have been over much faster. Not to mention that the French provided 35% of all air strikes committed during the intervention. Had the rebels begun striking civilian targets, they likely would have been shot at by our drones too.

The reason we're not intervening in Syria is because the United Nations hasn't voted on doing so. There has never been a specific effort to help any resistance movement in the Arab Spring, only a single 7 month enforcement of the UN policy that indirectly assisted the rebels and ended almost immediately after the civil war ended.

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and now everyone is legally required to purchase health care.

As is done in a large number of prosperous first world countries, where they don't complain about having guaranteed healthcare instead of having to privately pay for very expensive health insurance (regardless of whether it gets used). I have yet to see anyone negatively affected by the reforms, regardless of their whining. Because that's what it is: whining.

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Obama didn't even come out in support of gay equality until Biden gaffed and the polls were in his favor.

Contrary to popular belief, Obama coming out in support of gay marriage before the election would NOT have helped as much as you think. The people who were already inclined to vote for him would likely support it, while those who would vote for Romney would likely be against it (or at least want him to abstain from civil rights in favor of something else first). The only people his decision would have affected were the voters on the fence, which could have hurt him as much as it helped.

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The guy's more interested in looking bipartisan than he is in keeping his promises or upholding the agenda that got him elected. If he really believed the things he said, one would think he'd put more effort into defending them; it's not like the Repubs have made hard targets for mockery and ridicule.

It's a matter of trying not to alienate people. Obama's election massively divided people, and anyone can tell you how many death threats he's received since coming into office. Mitch McConnell outright stated at the beginning of Obama's presidency that he wanted to make Obama a "one-term president", echoing Rush Limbaugh's desires the previous month that Obama would fail. The GOP has been more concerned with making Obama look bad to historians and preventing him from doing what he wants than actually working toward bettering the nation. Very few people in this day and age (now that we've left the Tammany Hall standards of politicking) have the clout to get people on both sides to play nice with each other; just look at the health care debate.

Again, the idea that Obama could accomplish everything and be Jesus in a suit if he just played hardball is a fallacy and a bad misunderstanding of the power of the presidency, and the history of presidents. Only 75 percent of campaign promises made from Wilson to Carter were actually met. According to the Obameter, in fact, Obama has kept 45% of his promises, compromised on 24%, and has 4% in the works. Out of 532 promises, 390 have been either accomplished in some manner or are being worked on as we speak (or 73%). Also, you should take note of how the Obameter measures progress: it requires tangible results to count as finished, rather than intentions. At least some of the ones listed in "promises broken" are ones that have stalled due to an inability to get them through Congress.

In short, your post is simply not congruent with the facts.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 05:56:49 am by chitoryu12 »
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Offline Damen

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 06:30:36 am »
Quote
and now everyone is legally required to purchase health care.

As is done in a large number of prosperous first world countries, where they don't complain about having guaranteed healthcare instead of having to privately pay for very expensive health insurance (regardless of whether it gets used). I have yet to see anyone negatively affected by the reforms, regardless of their whining. Because that's what it is: whining.

I just want to point out that as written in the ACA, there is no way the government can prosecute anyone for not buying health coverage.

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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2013, 09:16:40 pm »
There's actually not a choice here. If congress passes a law preventing any prosecution of these people- that's what it did, right?- then they get immediately released. There are no other legal options. Holding them in prison without charge is a violation of the constitution and grounds for impeachment.

Sure, a handful of these people are actually guilty of things. If congress refuses to imprison them legally, they can't be imprisoned at all.

For one legally or not some of them still are and are not going anywhere.  Second those that would be released the question is where to release them?

The President does not have the power to just put these people in any county he wants and that includes the US.

I just want to point out that as written in the ACA, there is no way the government can prosecute anyone for not buying health coverage.

*flounces off*

Yes, but the IRS can still take it out of a person's tax returns.

[He could most certainly at least appear to put up a fight. Obama ran the first campaign on closing Gitmo, ending the wars in the Middle East, and establishing a Single Payer health system. Of these things, Gitmo has been abandoned as a cause, we only left Iraq because the new government got tired of our shit, while we "wind down" in Afghanistan and bomb Libya to "help the resistance" (good thing that logic carries to Syria), and now everyone is legally required to purchase health care. Obama didn't even come out in support of gay equality until Biden gaffed and the polls were in his favor. The guy's more interested in looking bipartisan than he is in keeping his promises or upholding the agenda that got him elected. If he really believed the things he said, one would think he'd put more effort into defending them; it's not like the Repubs have made hard targets for mockery and ridicule.

Well to start the claim that Obama ran on a promise of a single payer system is total false.

Second you are complaining that the wars are ending just that we did not pull out right away, which Obama said we were not going to do.

All in all it seems very much like you don't know what you are talking about.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:24:35 pm by m52nickerson »
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 03:35:46 am »
There's actually not a choice here. If congress passes a law preventing any prosecution of these people- that's what it did, right?- then they get immediately released. There are no other legal options. Holding them in prison without charge is a violation of the constitution and grounds for impeachment.

Sure, a handful of these people are actually guilty of things. If congress refuses to imprison them legally, they can't be imprisoned at all.

For one legally or not some of them still are and are not going anywhere.  Second those that would be released the question is where to release them?

The President does not have the power to just put these people in any county he wants and that includes the US.

Right. So the president has the power to imprison innocent people for decades, but not to charter a jet to take those innocent people back to the country they are a citizen of.

Do you think the president should routinely violate the law or not?

Quote
everyone is legally required to purchase health care.

As is done in a large number of prosperous first world countries,

Virtually every developed country has Efficient Health Insurance. The only countries enforcing a legal obligation to buy Inefficient Health Insurance are the US and Switzerland.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 05:36:16 am »
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Right. So the president has the power to imprison innocent people for decades, but not to charter a jet to take those innocent people back to the country they are a citizen of.

It's nowhere near as simple as you seem to think it is. Assuming that the country actually exists nowadays (or has a government that's stable enough to handle such matters instead of fighting a war against its own citizens 24/7), the two nations would need to work out the extradition details and possibly even make the other nation agree to take the prisoners back in the first place. There's also the matter of how Gitmo's not exactly filled with people who have zero evidence of their wrongdoing and are convicted out of spite; any evidence regarding the person's accused crimes would also need to be given to the particular nation so they can figure out what to do with them when they're sent back. And again, not even the president can just look at every individual prisoner and go "Release him."

Please, try to actually understand the situation and complexities before you try to decide how nations should be run.

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Virtually every developed country has Efficient Health Insurance. The only countries enforcing a legal obligation to buy Inefficient Health Insurance are the US and Switzerland.

Is there......actually an argument here? Why did you capitalize those terms? Are they new buzzwords I didn't hear about?
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2013, 11:06:34 am »
Yeah, didn't really intend for this thread to turn into a fight between progressives and moderates. That being said, I'm just sick of how Obama is looked upon as some sort of uber socialist by the right, when in reality his policies are very moderate(actually center right). Would I prefer a single payer Healthcare system, yes, but given that we have a culture that still worships this rugged individualist bs, I'll settle for some thing like the German Healthcare model. But I've come to the conclusion that Americans don't deserve shit, because we'll rather shoot ourselves in the foot and then bitch and moan when there's no help.  Yes, I'm one extremely cynical and jaded person, but this the result of being a poli sci major during the Bush Jr years...

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2013, 11:11:35 am »
I know :( I hate this country

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: State Of the Union
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 04:18:22 pm »
Quote
Right. So the president has the power to imprison innocent people for decades, but not to charter a jet to take those innocent people back to the country they are a citizen of.

It's nowhere near as simple as you seem to think it is. Assuming that the country actually exists nowadays (or has a government that's stable enough to handle such matters instead of fighting a war against its own citizens 24/7), the two nations would need to work out the extradition details and possibly even make the other nation agree to take the prisoners back in the first place.

These are excuses, not reasons. Repatriating Gitmo prisoners to their home countries has not been a problem for the hundreds of cases so far- there's no reason why it would be for the next few hundred.

Which country has ceased to exist since 2002?

There are no serious complexities here. The law is very clear- if you won't, or can't, charge someone with an offence, you must release them. Holding them in prison forever without charges is no an acceptable option.

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There's also the matter of how Gitmo's not exactly filled with people who have zero evidence of their wrongdoing and are convicted out of spite;

No, it's certainly filled with people like that. Admittedly, there are a few people who probably could be prosecuted if they were ever charged, but apparently the Republicans don't want them to be? I'm not clear about this last. In any case, all of them must be presumed to be innocent under American law.

Quote
Quote
Virtually every developed country has Efficient Health Insurance. The only countries enforcing a legal obligation to buy Inefficient Health Insurance are the US and Switzerland.

Is there......actually an argument here? Why did you capitalize those terms? Are they new buzzwords I didn't hear about?

One country: "a large number".
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http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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