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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Barbarella on July 24, 2015, 07:19:10 pm

Title: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 24, 2015, 07:19:10 pm
Other freak has shot up a movie theater! I'm sick of this!

Here's about the latest shooting....
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/24/louisiana-shooter-was-a-nazi-tea-partier-who-wanted-to-sterilize-welfare-recipients-screenshots/
....Long before this happened, he tried to get a gun before, but gun-safety laws rightfully prevented him! If it was the same deal in all states, this shooting would have NEVER happened!

When Martin Bryant shot up Port Arthur in New Zealand, New Zealand & Australia cracked down on the gun-mania and passed sweeping gun laws!

How many more shootings will it take to wake up the U.S.A?! Sandy Hook, with it's heinous slaughter of innocent little tykes, was sure to be our "Port Arthur Moment".

But, no! The NRA sucks the gun-cock of the gun manufacturers!

Any idiot can read the 2nd Amendment and SEE that it doesn't say that everybody has a right to a gun! It says a WELL REGULATED MILITIA has a right to guns! The average Joe has to prove themselves worthy to own a gun!

We need to write petitions to the White House to DEMAND sweeping, nationwide gun safety laws! We need to force Obama to sign an executive order!

I'm sick of this! A fascist terrorist has shot up a movie theater....proceeded by a fascist terrorist who shot up a church as a bullet-lynching!

When will be our "Port Arthur Moment" come?! Logically, according to the usual script of modern history, it would have taken the bloody deaths of a bunch of innocent children in a school!

However the NRA decided to buck the trend!

When will our "Port Arthur Moment" come? What will it take? A mass-shooting at an NRA meeting?!

They say it's hard to change the law because of the 2nd Amendment. I say BULL! It's easy; Joe Q. Gun Nut is NOT a WELL REGULATED MILITIA!

WELL-REGULATED MILITIA: The Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, National Guard....The Police!

What will it take for the sweeping change to take place? If over 20 small children getting blasted to bits won't do it, what will?

And can't Obama come up with an Executive Order?!


To those of you who own guns or support ownership of guns, keep in mind that I'm not saying we should ban guns wholesale. I'm saying that we need more gun-safety laws, background checks, strict regulations, obligatory gun safety classes and limits to how much guns one can buy and what kind.

A small pistol for self-defense or a shotgun for hunting (after background checks & lessons) is fine. But unlimited gun ownership for everyone & piles of military assault rifles is not!
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 24, 2015, 07:30:25 pm
Oh, you mean the Aussie gun laws that don't work?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths)

But I am in favor of stricter background checks.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Svata on July 24, 2015, 07:35:47 pm
Sad to say this, but at this point I've just resigned myself to it. Also, am surprised that no one here mentioned the shooting at the military recruiter's office in Chattanooga that happened recently. As I have no TV and largely rely on this site for news, it made me look like an ass when one of my friends mentioned being sad and angered by "what happened in Chattanooga Sunday", as it was their hometown. Hate to sound right-wing, but I guess it doesn't matter as much when its soldiers getting shot up. While they're recruiting. In an American city. Eh, whatever. 
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 24, 2015, 07:38:11 pm
Sad to say this, but at this point I've just resigned myself to it. Also, am surprised that no one here mentioned the shooting at the military recruiter's office in Chattanooga that happened recently. As I have no TV and largely rely on this site for news, it made me look like an ass when one of my friends mentioned being sad and angered by "what happened in Chattanooga Sunday", as it was their hometown. Hate to sound right-wing, but I guess it doesn't matter as much when its soldiers getting shot up. While they're recruiting. In an American city. Eh, whatever.

I was under the impression that we had a mass shooting megathread, and expected it to be posted there.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Svata on July 24, 2015, 07:42:43 pm
Haven't seen one. And it would have shown in "recent unread posts" regardless. Which it didn't.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 24, 2015, 07:51:25 pm
Sad to say this, but at this point I've just resigned myself to it. Also, am surprised that no one here mentioned the shooting at the military recruiter's office in Chattanooga that happened recently. As I have no TV and largely rely on this site for news, it made me look like an ass when one of my friends mentioned being sad and angered by "what happened in Chattanooga Sunday", as it was their hometown. Hate to sound right-wing, but I guess it doesn't matter as much when its soldiers getting shot up. While they're recruiting. In an American city. Eh, whatever.

I was under the impression that we had a mass shooting megathread, and expected it to be posted there.

There's a mass-shooting mega-thread? Oops! I had no idea! Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 24, 2015, 07:55:09 pm
Sad to say this, but at this point I've just resigned myself to it. Also, am surprised that no one here mentioned the shooting at the military recruiter's office in Chattanooga that happened recently. As I have no TV and largely rely on this site for news, it made me look like an ass when one of my friends mentioned being sad and angered by "what happened in Chattanooga Sunday", as it was their hometown. Hate to sound right-wing, but I guess it doesn't matter as much when its soldiers getting shot up. While they're recruiting. In an American city. Eh, whatever.

I was under the impression that we had a mass shooting megathread, and expected it to be posted there.

There's a mass-shooting mega-thread? Oops! I had no idea! Sorry about that.

There isn't, but I thought there was.  It's my bad.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 24, 2015, 08:00:18 pm
Oh, you mean the Aussie gun laws that don't work?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths)

But I am in favor of stricter background checks.

That article didn't say much, though. Is there a bunch of more detailed articles with a bunch of examples of incidents of shootings and a detailed analysis of the trends?

All I see here is one guy with one pithy article that says "Australia passed gun control laws. It didn't work. Crime has been going down for years, anyway. The End". Also, the Chicago Tribune is very Right-leaning so they're bound to be critical of gun-safety laws.

That said, at least we both agree that there should be gun-safety laws.

We also need to deal with culture & psychology and start a pro-mentally ill movement to get better funding and care of those with issues upstairs.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Svata on July 24, 2015, 08:05:20 pm
We also need to deal with culture & psychology and start a pro-mentally ill movement to get better funding and care of those with issues upstairs.


Yep.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: rageaholic on July 24, 2015, 09:25:54 pm
Too many nutcases with guns.  This isn't even counting the day to day shootings in Detroit. 
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: rookie on July 24, 2015, 09:47:03 pm
Other freak has shot up a movie theater! I'm sick of this!

Here's about the latest shooting....
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/24/louisiana-shooter-was-a-nazi-tea-partier-who-wanted-to-sterilize-welfare-recipients-screenshots/
....Long before this happened, he tried to get a gun before, but gun-safety laws rightfully prevented him! If it was the same deal in all states, this shooting would have NEVER happened!

When Martin Bryant shot up Port Arthur in New Zealand, New Zealand & Australia cracked down on the gun-mania and passed sweeping gun laws!

How many more shootings will it take to wake up the U.S.A?! Sandy Hook, with it's heinous slaughter of innocent little tykes, was sure to be our "Port Arthur Moment".

But, no! The NRA sucks the gun-cock of the gun manufacturers!

Any idiot can read the 2nd Amendment and SEE that it doesn't say that everybody has a right to a gun! It says a WELL REGULATED MILITIA has a right to guns! The average Joe has to prove themselves worthy to own a gun!

We need to write petitions to the White House to DEMAND sweeping, nationwide gun safety laws! We need to force Obama to sign an executive order!

I'm sick of this! A fascist terrorist has shot up a movie theater....proceeded by a fascist terrorist who shot up a church as a bullet-lynching!

When will be our "Port Arthur Moment" come?! Logically, according to the usual script of modern history, it would have taken the bloody deaths of a bunch of innocent children in a school!

However the NRA decided to buck the trend!

When will our "Port Arthur Moment" come? What will it take? A mass-shooting at an NRA meeting?!

They say it's hard to change the law because of the 2nd Amendment. I say BULL! It's easy; Joe Q. Gun Nut is NOT a WELL REGULATED MILITIA!

WELL-REGULATED MILITIA: The Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, National Guard....The Police!

What will it take for the sweeping change to take place? If over 20 small children getting blasted to bits won't do it, what will?

And can't Obama come up with an Executive Order?!


To those of you who own guns or support ownership of guns, keep in mind that I'm not saying we should ban guns wholesale. I'm saying that we need more gun-safety laws, background checks, strict regulations, obligatory gun safety classes and limits to how much guns one can buy and what kind.

A small pistol for self-defense or a shotgun for hunting (after background checks & lessons) is fine. But unlimited gun ownership for everyone & piles of military assault rifles is not!

Had me worried for a minute there, Barb. But I age with damn near everything you said 100%. And as a gun owner myself, I'd support any of those measures.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 24, 2015, 10:21:09 pm
If it would take just one, highly covered shooting to make Americans suddenly demand strict gun control, or the government to decide to pass it, then it would've already happened long ago with Columbine. The problem is that not only is gun ownership enshrined in the constitution, but both of those things are practically deified in American culture. Hence, trying to pass any sort of gun control, even when mass shootings are a regular occurrence, is political suicide and will only be overturned a short while later.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: SkyTrekTower on July 24, 2015, 11:15:47 pm
If it would take just one, highly covered shooting to make Americans suddenly demand strict gun control, or the government to decide to pass it, then it would've already happened long ago with Columbine. The problem is that not only is gun ownership enshrined in the constitution, but both of those things are practically deified in American culture. Hence, trying to pass any sort of gun control, even when mass shootings are a regular occurrence, is political suicide and will only be overturned a short while later.

Such movements have happened.  The now lapsed assault weapon ban came to be after a white supremacist attacked a California school playground with an AK-47.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockton_schoolyard_shooting
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: TheContrarian on July 25, 2015, 10:21:01 am
I'm sick of this! A fascist terrorist has shot up a movie theater....proceeded by a fascist terrorist who shot up a church as a bullet-lynching!

And of course nothing at all happened between these incidents.

In the fairytale world of liberalism at least.

In reality, however:

June 22nd, 9 dead in Afghanistan in an attack by the Taliban (Muslim)
June 23rd, a gunman belonging to Boko Haram kills 40 in Nigeria (Muslim)
June 23rd, two female suicide bombers kill 30 in Nigeria (Muslim)
June 24th, a carbomb in Mogadishu kills 6.  Al Shabaab (Muslim)
June 25th, A series of carbombs in Syria kills 146.  ISIS (Muslim)
June 25th, Multiple suicide bombings in Baghdad kill 8.  ISIS (Muslim)
June 26th, An ISIS suicide bomber kills 20 in Syria (Muslim)
June 26th, Two ISIS members behead a man in France (Muslim)
June 26th, 24 dead and over 200 injured in a suicide bombing in Kuwait city (Muslim)
June 26th, 30 killed by armed ISIS gunmen in Tunisia (Muslim)
June 26th, 70 killed by Al Shabaab militants in Somalia (Muslim)
June 27th, Another spate of bombings in Baghdad kills 12.  ISIS (Muslim)
June 28th, Two suicide bombers attack a hospital in Nigeria, killing 5.  Boko Haram (Muslim)
June 29th, ISIS carbombing in Yemen kills 28 (Muslim)
June 30th, Taliban carbombings in Afghanistan kill 3 and injure 73 (Muslim)

So the total from June 17th to the end of the month is:
Evil Racists: 9
Muslims: 431

So in the 9 days from Charleston to the end of June Islamic terrorists were killing at an average of 48 people per day including FIVE SEPARATE ATTACKS ON THE SAME DAY.

Oddly enough the massive islamic bloodbath escaped your attention.  I guess you were too busy shrieking about a few throwbacks and their 19th century battle-flag...

Anyway, onwards to the bright future of July:

July 1st, 17 dead in ISIS attack in Egypt (Muslim)
July 2nd, 145 killed by Boko Haram in Nigeria (Muslim)
July 4th, Taliban attacks kill 7 in Pakistan (Muslim)
July 5th, Boko Haram kill 69 in Nigeria (Muslim)
July 5th, Boko Haram kill 26 in Chad (Muslim)
July 7th, Boko Haram suicide bomber kills 25 in Nigeria (Muslim)
July 7th, Al Shabaab militants kill 14 in Kenya (Muslim)
July 8th, 3 policemen beheaded by the Taliban in Afghanistan (Muslim)
July 9th, Boko Haram kill 5 in Niger (Muslim)
July 10th, Boko Haram kill 54 in Nigeria (Muslim)
July 11th, Boko Haram kill 4 in Nigeria (Muslim)
July 12th, Boko Haram kill 15 in Chad (Muslim)
July 12th, Boko Haram kill 4 in Niger (Muslim)
July 13th, Taliban suicide bomber kills 33 in Afghanistan (Muslim)
July 13th, At least 12 killed by Boko Haram in Cameroon (Muslim)
July 15th, Boko Haram kill 33 in Nigeria (Muslim)
July 16th, 5 dead and 2 wounded in Chattanooga, Tenessee (Muslim)
July 17th, Boko Haram kill 64 in Nigeria (Muslim)
July 17th, A series of car bombings in Iraq kill at least 100.  ISIS (Muslim)
July 20th, Suicide bombing in Turkey kills 32.  ISIS (Muslim)
July 23rd, Lafayette shooter kills 2 and wounds several.

So we're up to present day and thus far the July totals are:
Evil Racists: 2
Muslims: 669

So the overall total since (and including) Dylann roof is:
Evil Racists: 11
Muslims: 1100

And guess which one you people give more airtime to...

To be honest I can understand you ignoring things outside your own border, 'merkins aren't known for understanding that anything else exists.  But the one in Tenessee?  You libs really made a point of studiously ignoring that one eh?

I guess if he wanted the attention that badly he should have been flying the confederate flag, it's all you lot seem to give a fuck about these days...



Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: mellenORL on July 25, 2015, 10:55:57 am
Troll, I see you ran out of rocks to eat under our bridge. I'd cite "false equivalence" to you, but one can't expect a rock eater to know there is a difference between apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 25, 2015, 11:11:18 am
So are you saying Christians need to step their murder game up?
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: mellenORL on July 25, 2015, 11:43:53 am
He's just frustrated that he cannot figure out how to build a Middle East-glassing nuke out of the rocks, fish bones, tin cans and bits of string he sleeps upon under the FQA bridge.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 25, 2015, 12:02:43 pm
TheContrarian needs to "eat a gun".  :P
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 25, 2015, 12:20:46 pm
Are all atheists communists?  Are all Germanic pagans racists?  Are all Christians misogynists?
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: TheContrarian on July 25, 2015, 12:50:45 pm
Are all atheists communists?  Are all Germanic pagans racists?  Are all Christians misogynists?

Are no muslims scotsmen?
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: TheContrarian on July 25, 2015, 01:18:07 pm
Troll, I see you ran out of rocks to eat under our bridge. I'd cite "false equivalence" to you, but one can't expect a rock eater to know there is a difference between apples and oranges.

Yes.  Obviously.

A small group of violent lunatics in one country is scarcely an adequate comparison for a global tidal wave of religious savagery.

It does beg the question, however, as to why liberals are so enraged by the former while going out of their way to ignore or excuse the latter.

Doesn't fit the dishonest narrative they're peddling, I guess.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 25, 2015, 01:30:38 pm
Troll, I see you ran out of rocks to eat under our bridge. I'd cite "false equivalence" to you, but one can't expect a rock eater to know there is a difference between apples and oranges.

Yes.  Obviously.

A small group of violent lunatics in one country is scarcely an adequate comparison for a global tidal wave of religious savagery.

It does beg the question, however, as to why liberals are so enraged by the former while going out of their way to ignore or excuse the latter.

Doesn't fit the dishonest narrative they're peddling, I guess.

There are about a billion Muslims in the world.  Is every single one of them a brutal religious fanatic?  Chances are, for every Muslim you could name who fits that description, I could name ten who don't.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: TheContrarian on July 25, 2015, 01:36:17 pm
Troll, I see you ran out of rocks to eat under our bridge. I'd cite "false equivalence" to you, but one can't expect a rock eater to know there is a difference between apples and oranges.

Yes.  Obviously.

A small group of violent lunatics in one country is scarcely an adequate comparison for a global tidal wave of religious savagery.

It does beg the question, however, as to why liberals are so enraged by the former while going out of their way to ignore or excuse the latter.

Doesn't fit the dishonest narrative they're peddling, I guess.

There are about a billion Muslims in the world.  Is every single one of them a brutal religious fanatic?  Chances are, for every Muslim you could name who fits that description, I could name ten who don't.

I'm sure.

But if your 10:1 ratio holds throughout the population you still have an army of over a hundred million homicidal fanatics...

But more to the point, if you think that the actions of a minority of violent lunatics dispersed throughout the larger population don't demand some form of sanctions applied to the entire population...then why all this talk of gun control and removing the confederate flag from everywhere?  Surely you can't be claiming that every gun owner and everyone who flies the flag is a ticking time bomb ready to go off and commit deadly hatecrimes?

Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Sigmaleph on July 25, 2015, 03:56:35 pm
Troll, I see you ran out of rocks to eat under our bridge. I'd cite "false equivalence" to you, but one can't expect a rock eater to know there is a difference between apples and oranges.

Yes.  Obviously.

A small group of violent lunatics in one country is scarcely an adequate comparison for a global tidal wave of religious savagery.

It does beg the question, however, as to why liberals are so enraged by the former while going out of their way to ignore or excuse the latter.

Doesn't fit the dishonest narrative they're peddling, I guess.

There are about a billion Muslims in the world.  Is every single one of them a brutal religious fanatic?  Chances are, for every Muslim you could name who fits that description, I could name ten who don't.

I'm sure.

But if your 10:1 ratio holds throughout the population you still have an army of over a hundred million homicidal fanatics...

But more to the point, if you think that the actions of a minority of violent lunatics dispersed throughout the larger population don't demand some form of sanctions applied to the entire population...then why all this talk of gun control and removing the confederate flag from everywhere?  Surely you can't be claiming that every gun owner and everyone who flies the flag is a ticking time bomb ready to go off and commit deadly hatecrimes?

People tend to care more about things that are close to home, for a mixture of good and bad reasons. Good reasons include that if the people in your neighbourhood/state/country are shooting each other, you have a comparative advantage in trying to stop them (for example, by pushing for different laws, since you share a government).

(bad reasons are various, mostly availability bias and ingroup bias)

If Muslims were killing people at that same rate in America, I imagine the average American would care a lot more.

(also, trying to pin it on religion as opposed to, say, local conditions up to and including living in a warzone is kind of disingenuous)
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Vypernight on July 25, 2015, 04:20:49 pm
I remember reading a news report stating the guy who did the church shooting wasn't even supposed to have a gun either, but her got one thanks to a clerk error.  So it comes down to not creating more gun laws but actually enforcing the ones we have.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Eiki-mun on July 25, 2015, 06:04:11 pm
What really struck me in TheContrarian's long list of "Muslim" deaths is how many of them had one of two phrases attached: "ISIS" or "Boko Haram". Most of the rest said Taliban. As Boko Haram is essentially West African ISIS, even going so far as to swear fealty to ISIS, you're basically saying "ISIS killed a lot of people", which is a surprise to absolutely no one, which the United States is already doing something about, and which is hardly representative of the Muslim faith. If you're going to equate ISIS with Islam, can I then equate Uganda with Christianity? Can I equate the Soviet Union under Stalin with atheism? Can I equate Israel with Judaism*?


*: No, not all Jews support Israel's actions. In fact, a great many do not. So, no, you really can't equate Israel with Judaism.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 25, 2015, 06:19:59 pm
Oh, you mean the Aussie gun laws that don't work?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths)

But I am in favor of stricter background checks.

Worked very well thankyou. Gun homicides and in particular gun suicides are way down since the mid 80s when we started adopting gun controls.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 25, 2015, 06:40:46 pm
Oh, you mean the Aussie gun laws that don't work?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths)

But I am in favor of stricter background checks.

Worked very well thankyou. Gun homicides and in particular gun suicides are way down since the mid 80s when we started adopting gun controls.

Your own government's statistics tell a different story.  According to the New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, there was no significant decline in gun-related crimes after the 1996 buyback.  In fact, gun crime is actually on the rise in Queensland.

http://www.news.com.au/national/gun-crime-in-queensland-on-the-rise-despite-firearms-amnesty/story-e6frfkp9-1226645545149#ixzz2Uc8x9Y3M (http://www.news.com.au/national/gun-crime-in-queensland-on-the-rise-despite-firearms-amnesty/story-e6frfkp9-1226645545149#ixzz2Uc8x9Y3M)

Meanwhile, American gun homicide rates have decreased by almost half since 1993.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/ (http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/)
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 25, 2015, 09:51:56 pm
Troll, I see you ran out of rocks to eat under our bridge. I'd cite "false equivalence" to you, but one can't expect a rock eater to know there is a difference between apples and oranges.

Yes.  Obviously.

A small group of violent lunatics in one country is scarcely an adequate comparison for a global tidal wave of religious savagery.

It does beg the question, however, as to why liberals are so enraged by the former while going out of their way to ignore or excuse the latter.

Doesn't fit the dishonest narrative they're peddling, I guess.

There are about a billion Muslims in the world.  Is every single one of them a brutal religious fanatic?  Chances are, for every Muslim you could name who fits that description, I could name ten who don't.

I'm sure.

But if your 10:1 ratio holds throughout the population you still have an army of over a hundred million homicidal fanatics...

But more to the point, if you think that the actions of a minority of violent lunatics dispersed throughout the larger population don't demand some form of sanctions applied to the entire population...then why all this talk of gun control and removing the confederate flag from everywhere?  Surely you can't be claiming that every gun owner and everyone who flies the flag is a ticking time bomb ready to go off and commit deadly hatecrimes?

Do you think other ethnic groups should be blamed for the actions of a few members during a war? Perhaps you think all Europeans are genocidal maniacs - after all, Hitler was a European.

Or perhaps this is silly contrarian racism.

Oh, you mean the Aussie gun laws that don't work?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-18/opinion/chi-the-failure-of-gun-control-in-australia-20130118_1_gun-control-mandatory-gun-gun-deaths)

But I am in favor of stricter background checks.

Worked very well thankyou. Gun homicides and in particular gun suicides are way down since the mid 80s when we started adopting gun controls.

Your own government's statistics tell a different story.  According to the New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, there was no significant decline in gun-related crimes after the 1996 buyback.  In fact, gun crime is actually on the rise in Queensland.

http://www.news.com.au/national/gun-crime-in-queensland-on-the-rise-despite-firearms-amnesty/story-e6frfkp9-1226645545149#ixzz2Uc8x9Y3M (http://www.news.com.au/national/gun-crime-in-queensland-on-the-rise-despite-firearms-amnesty/story-e6frfkp9-1226645545149#ixzz2Uc8x9Y3M)

Meanwhile, American gun homicide rates have decreased by almost half since 1993.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/ (http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/)

It's clearest in gun suicide figures. Suicide by firearm has plummeted since the 80s (gun control legislaton started in the 80s, not 1996).

(Edit: oops, forgot to add my cite: https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/suicide-australia-meta-analysis-rates-and-methods-suicide-between-1988-and-2007 (https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/suicide-australia-meta-analysis-rates-and-methods-suicide-between-1988-and-2007))
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 25, 2015, 10:08:25 pm
<snip>
I don't know if you noticed, but the topic of this thread is potential gun control in America. Some fundamentalist Mulsim loonies in Africa and the Middle East has sweet fuck all to do with anything in this thread.

If you want to discuss this sort of thing, start a new thread rather than clogging up unrelated topics.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 25, 2015, 10:16:15 pm
@ U.P. & Lt. Fred

Well, another mass-shooting hasn't happened, "Down Under" right?

Perhaps the real key to this mess is not so much just a need for stricter gun laws.....that's only the bandage or half of what needs to be done.

The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

That's what's important. A lot of our social ills could be helped if we focused on treating the person on the inside. The hearts, minds & souls need healing.

There needs to be a Holistic movement based on awareness I better treatment of mental & emotional illness and a strong pushing of values like love, empathy & cooperation. Perhaps some new charities & foundations can be founded, better research into the human brain.

Bring back the asylums and have them for ONLY the WORST CASE scenarios (rather than everybody shipping whoever for whatever reason there like in the old days) and make sure they are well-funded (both via government & privately) and well-run as the nurturing places of therapy they should be.

And finally: QUIT PLASTERING THE SHOOTER'S NAME & MUG ALL OVER THE STUPID NEWS, YOU SILLY NEWS PEOPLE!!!

It'll take a lot to do this but if society can put effort into it. It can be done! :)


<snip>
I don't know if you noticed, but the topic of this thread is potential gun control in America. Some fundamentalist Mulsim loonies in Africa and the Middle East has sweet fuck all to do with anything in this thread.

If you want to discuss this sort of thing, start a new thread rather than clogging up unrelated topics.

Thank you, Art! I couldn't say it better, myself.

Begone, TheContrarian!

Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 25, 2015, 10:21:02 pm
@ U.P. & Lt. Fred

Well, another mass-shooting hasn't happened, "Down Under" right?

That's true, though irrelevant. The sample size is too small to be statistically meaningful.

Gun suicides are WAAAAAY down, and that really matters.

Quote
Perhaps the real key to this mess is not so much just a need for stricter gun laws...

Stricter guns laws and a proper health insurance system that covers primary mental health well, everywhere, for everyone, free of charge.

Quote
The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

What sort of legislation would you enact to do that? Seems airy fairy and meaningless.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 25, 2015, 10:23:49 pm
Making-fun-of-The-Contrarian-thread is

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6565.0 (http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6565.0)
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 25, 2015, 11:36:42 pm

Quote
The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

What sort of legislation would you enact to do that? Seems airy fairy and meaningless.

I meant along with gun-safety laws, we need to put better funding and effort into psychiatric care and helping those with issues "upstairs".

Better mental health awareness. Not "Tackle Psychology"...that came out all wrong.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: The_Queen on July 26, 2015, 11:45:59 am

Quote
The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

What sort of legislation would you enact to do that? Seems airy fairy and meaningless.

I meant along with gun-safety laws, we need to put better funding and effort into psychiatric care and helping those with issues "upstairs".

Better mental health awareness. Not "Tackle Psychology"...that came out all wrong.

But I've already pointed out how treating mass shootings as a mental health issue is not only patently absurd, but purely a smokescreen to detract from the real issue. Fact of the matter is, it is easy to say that "[Cho Seung Hui/ Eric Harris/ Dylan Klebold/ Adam Lanza/ James Eagan Holmes/ Jared Lee Loughner] is crazy." They just shot a lot of people and nobody really knows why. Nobody will step up and defend them from accusations of insanity or mental health issues, and several will lob those adjectives out of anger. Unfortunately though, it is a giant non-issue. We as a society of laws cannot just put random people in prison before they commit a crime absent some pretty convincing evidence before the fact. Combine this with the fact that the same gun group that cries mental health whenever there is a shooting is the first to defend the "gun rights" of domestic abusers (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/05/19/3660370/nra-rides-rescue-men-beat-dates-louisiana/) or people with violent criminal convictions, (http://www.vpc.org/studies/felons.htm) and, well, what do you expect? Turns out that once you scratch the surface, you see that mental illness is a scape goat so that violent men with masculinity-issues can still possess firearms.

Further compounding this smokescreen is the fact that those diagnosed as mentally ill are less likely to shoot people than those who are not diagnosed. Metzl et al. Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms, 105 American Journal of Public Health 240 (2015) (http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdfplus/10.2105/AJPH.2014.302242) ("Yet surprisingly little population-level evidence supports the notion that individuals diagnosed with mental illness are more likely than anyone else to commit gun crimes. According to Appel-baum, less than 3% to 5% of US crimes involve people with mental illness, and the percentages of crimes that involve guns are lower than the national average for persons not diagnosed with mental illness"). Combine this with the fact that the diagnosed mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of gun violence, (https://publichealthwatch.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/more-evidence-that-mental-health-patients-are-more-likely-to-be-victims-than-perpetrators-of-violence-so-why-do-we-keep-stigmatizing-mental-illness-as-a-cause-of-gun-violence/) and you have a full-blown smokescreen on your hands.

The internal logic of the claim that mental illness is to blame for our gun problems simply belies itself. If we truly accepted the NRA's logic as correct, the logic that "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun"* or that "Guns are responsible for 2.5 million defensive uses each year." If these slogans or fabricated studies meant anything, the NRA would lead the pack when it came to arming the mentally ill, as they are the more likely that Joe Six-Pack to be victimized by gun violence. But they don't, and this shows that self-defense is not what the NRA cares about. Disarming only the mentally ill cynically demonizes part of our society who are already among the least well off so that gun-owners can continue to enjoy their pretty little toys. Gun-owners cry "individual rights" and "self-defense" while cynically removing those "rights" from another class of people. It simply says "take guns away from them, not from me" and that is the real problem with the gun control debate: instead of asking, "what is good public policy," the pro-gun side asks "what policies will allow me to keep my man-toys?"

*The notion is that society as a whole must defend itself. It focuses on a "good person in society" standing up for himself (cause it's always a white man) and others to defend their collective selves.

As for UP citing that Australia link, it's bullshit. I just don't care enough to waste another hour on this, when I could be getting paid.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 26, 2015, 12:32:55 pm
But I've already pointed out how treating mass shootings as a mental health issue is not only patently absurd, but purely a smokescreen to detract from the real issue. Fact of the matter is, it is easy to say that "[Cho Seung Hui/ Eric Harris/ Dylan Klebold/ Adam Lanza/ James Eagan Holmes/ Jared Lee Loughner] is crazy." They just shot a lot of people and nobody really knows why. Nobody will step up and defend them from accusations of insanity or mental health issues, and several will lob those adjectives out of anger.


Cho was deemed mentally ill and in need of hospitalization in 2005.  Holmes was seeing several mental health professionals.  Adam Lanza showed numerous symptoms of mental illnesses more severe than what he was diagnosed with.  Eric Harris was ordered to take antidepressants for anger management therapy, while Dylan Klebold had a weird complex where he hated himself but simultaneously considered himself "godlike".  You have two people who were known to have serious mental illnesses, and three who almost certainly did.

Unfortunately though, it is a giant non-issue. We as a society of laws cannot just put random people in prison before they commit a crime absent some pretty convincing evidence before the fact.


I don't want to put people away, I just want to make sure they get the help they need.

Combine this with the fact that the same gun group that cries mental health whenever there is a shooting is the first to defend the "gun rights" of domestic abusers (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/05/19/3660370/nra-rides-rescue-men-beat-dates-louisiana/) or people with violent criminal convictions, (http://www.vpc.org/studies/felons.htm) and, well, what do you expect? Turns out that once you scratch the surface, you see that mental illness is a scape goat so that violent men with masculinity-issues can still possess firearms..


I don't think violent criminals should be allowed to own guns.  The NRA isn't representative of American gun owners as a whole.  Really, it represents arms manufacturers more than anything.

And I gotta love your stereotyping of gun owners.

Further compounding this smokescreen is the fact that those diagnosed as mentally ill are less likely to shoot people than those who are not diagnosed. Metzl et al. Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms, 105 American Journal of Public Health 240 (2015) (http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdfplus/10.2105/AJPH.2014.302242) ("Yet surprisingly little population-level evidence supports the notion that individuals diagnosed with mental illness are more likely than anyone else to commit gun crimes. According to Appel-baum, less than 3% to 5% of US crimes involve people with mental illness, and the percentages of crimes that involve guns are lower than the national average for persons not diagnosed with mental illness"). Combine this with the fact that the diagnosed mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of gun violence, (https://publichealthwatch.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/more-evidence-that-mental-health-patients-are-more-likely-to-be-victims-than-perpetrators-of-violence-so-why-do-we-keep-stigmatizing-mental-illness-as-a-cause-of-gun-violence/) and you have a full-blown smokescreen on your hands.

For gun crimes in general, that may be true, but what about mass shootings?

The internal logic of the claim that mental illness is to blame for our gun problems simply belies itself. If we truly accepted the NRA's logic as correct, the logic that "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun"* or that "Guns are responsible for 2.5 million defensive uses each year." If these slogans or fabricated studies meant anything, the NRA would lead the pack when it came to arming the mentally ill, as they are the more likely that Joe Six-Pack to be victimized by gun violence. But they don't, and this shows that self-defense is not what the NRA cares about. Disarming only the mentally ill cynically demonizes part of our society who are already among the least well off so that gun-owners can continue to enjoy their pretty little toys.

I think the problem is more that there's a certain image that comes to mind when somebody brings up mental illness.  When the average American thinks "mentally ill person", they think of violent maniacs, charismatic sociopaths, or delusional freaks.

By the way, there have been at least nine mass shootings stopped by armed citizens:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-that-were-stopped-by-someone-wit#.dgkda9DLb (http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-that-were-stopped-by-someone-wit#.dgkda9DLb)

Gun-owners cry "individual rights" and "self-defense" while cynically removing those "rights" from another class of people. It simply says "take guns away from them, not from me" and that is the real problem with the gun control debate: instead of asking, "what is good public policy," the pro-gun side asks "what policies will allow me to keep my man-toys?"

And thank you again for stereotyping.  If you want to discuss this in good faith, I'd appreciate if you stopped taking potshots at strawmen.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 27, 2015, 12:01:33 am
I never said that those with mental/emotional illness are all violent nor am I saying that people doing bad stuff is because they're sick. I meant that, along with gun laws we need to work on people's character & psychology. Heal the human on "the inside".

And, of course, deal with this hyper-masculinity problem and deal with issues concerning maleness. We need to teach that it's okay for a man to not be macho and help guys with coping with the various insecurities involving being male in our society.

I'm sure you can read-between-the lines and get the gist of what I'm trying to say in oh-so-many-words.

Sometimes I get the impression that we all get confused here because we use certain terms & words but we all put different meanings and implications to said terms & words.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ironchew on July 27, 2015, 12:22:03 am
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on July 27, 2015, 12:26:44 am
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.

And how exactly does one determine what a "responsible gun owner" is?
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: niam2023 on July 27, 2015, 12:32:27 am
Honestly, when people are getting gunned down at this rate, I have honestly stopped caring about the "rights" of "law abiding citizens" / "legal gun owners". Gun control is the only way to go from here, combined with comprehensive alteration of the way we deal with mentally ill people.

Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ironchew on July 27, 2015, 01:19:40 am
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.

And how exactly does one determine what a "responsible gun owner" is?

The same way you determine licensing procedures for handling other dangerous objects. You're smarter than this, UP, so quit pretending to be so clueless.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: guizonde on July 27, 2015, 07:25:54 am
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.

And how exactly does one determine what a "responsible gun owner" is?

The same way you determine licensing procedures for handling other dangerous objects. You're smarter than this, UP, so quit pretending to be so clueless.

if you make it like the dmv, nobody will want a gun in the first place, too much hassle.  ;D
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: mellenORL on July 27, 2015, 09:07:20 am
Ace, guizonde! XD
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: guizonde on July 27, 2015, 09:11:26 am
say, should we indeed make a "shootings mega-thread" or something? it seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Svata on July 27, 2015, 10:10:39 am
Probably.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: rookie on July 27, 2015, 11:30:57 am
Ironchew, I do believe you're right in that Americans don't want to deal with the gun control issue. Colombine, VA Tech, that Amish school a few years ago, Sandy Hook, the theater shooting in Colorado, the Beltway snipers, the Chattanooga recruitment center, Ft. Hood, that DC Navy yard, and everything else I've forgotten about. And since then nothing substantial has changed.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ironchew on July 27, 2015, 01:28:20 pm
Ironchew, I do believe you're right in that Americans don't want to deal with the gun control issue. Colombine, VA Tech, that Amish school a few years ago, Sandy Hook, the theater shooting in Colorado, the Beltway snipers, the Chattanooga recruitment center, Ft. Hood, that DC Navy yard, and everything else I've forgotten about. And since then nothing substantial has changed.

It doesn't help that a bunch of shills flood the airwaves shortly after incidents like these saying, "Won't someone think of the arms industry profits Silly citizens. Now's not the time to talk about gun control. If everyone had a gun this wouldn't have happened."
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Barbarella on July 28, 2015, 01:03:31 am
A lot of us Americans do want something done.

First, we got to get the Teahadis & NeoCon creeps out of our government!

THEN we can tackle the NRA.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Ironchew on July 28, 2015, 02:01:52 am
A lot of us Americans do want something done.

First, we got to get the Teahadis & NeoCon creeps out of our government!

THEN we can tackle the NRA.

With that plan you'll be waiting decades to get anything done, all the while totally indistinguishable from inaction.

The hundreds of thousands of victims of gun violence between now and then can't afford to wait that long.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: rookie on July 28, 2015, 10:06:32 am
A lot of us Americans do want something done.

First, we got to get the Teahadis & NeoCon creeps out of our government!

THEN we can tackle the NRA.
2009-2011. Around '94. The 2 most recent times I can think of the Dems had control of the White House and both houses of Congress.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 28, 2015, 10:14:51 am
A lot of us Americans do want something done.

First, we got to get the Teahadis & NeoCon creeps out of our government!

THEN we can tackle the NRA.

Lobbyists like the NRA are a huge part of why the US government is so far to the right in the first place.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Askold on July 28, 2015, 10:15:20 am
A lot of us Americans do want something done.

First, we got to get the Teahadis & NeoCon creeps out of our government!

THEN we can tackle the NRA.
2009-2011. Around '94. The 2 most recent times I can think of the Dems had control of the White House and both houses of Congress.
Except that the GOP was still able to decide what happens because enough of the Democrats disagree with the party line and side with the GOP. The Democrats are either hypocrites or simply spineless.

At least the GOP is better at avoiding infighting and keeping a firm stand against whatever the hell they don't want to happen.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: mellenORL on July 29, 2015, 10:49:45 am
Both parties are so far to the right they're literally retarding any advancement in the American socioeconomic and political paradigm. Foxes, all, guarding the henhouse.
Title: Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
Post by: Lady Evil on July 29, 2015, 04:47:52 pm
Lafayette resident posting.

Predictably, Jindal used it as a "Look at me! Vote for me!" opportunity. Apparently, all we need is more prayer.

Only two fatalities due to the police responding quickly (seems they weren't very far away) and they were equipped with first aid kits, a very recent addition to the police force.

I've gone to that theater quite a few times. Most recently was last month for my husband's birthday. We saw Jurassic World and looked at a fossil display the local museum had set up in the lobby. Great place to go, as long as you didn't eat the hot dogs.