Author Topic: Would a story about SWAT team raiding a no-kill shelter to kill a deer go here?  (Read 7664 times)

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Offline Sour Grapes

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Guys, Yae is right. The law is the law, & procedure is procedure. Frankly, some of you need to stop being so bleeding heart that you focus on a single issue & defend it to the death while ignoring other issues that might come into play. Being outraged & raging at everyone over the internet helps no one. Calling for mass firings helps no one. And I can't help but notice that one of the articles being sourced is DESIGNED to whip people up in a moral frenzy, making liberal comparisons to Nazis, overemotional language, etc.

I was the one who sourced it, and I thought it was a bit over-the-top.

Offline Shane for Wax

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I'm amused by Schultz whining about having nightmares about the raid. Yeah, okay. Simper some more.

I didn't read the daily kos one cause lol wow they've gotten really pathetic lately. But the first article made me scoff.

No, they wouldn't call you because you broke the law. That'd be ridiculous. That isn't in procedure. Should they have knocked? Probably. But still. C'mon.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 06:23:16 am by Booker DeWitt »

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Offline booley

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No, they wouldn't call you because you broke the law. That'd be ridiculous. That isn't in procedure. Should they have knocked? Probably. But still. C'mon.

Why would that be ridiculous exactly? 
 We aren't talking about drug dealers here.  No one was going to take that deer and use it to kill anyone.  The shelter wasnt' filled with religious fanatics who were likely to do suicide attacks to keep one baby deer. 

In short why the fuck should enforcing the law mean throwing common sense out  of the window?

Not all crimes are comparable.  Not all crimes are equally serious.  Not every reaction of the cops is ok just because it was the cops.

I cant' be the only to notice that despite all the resources used for the raid, no one was actually charged with a  crime.  So even the police didn't think this was a  serious offense and they were the ones sending in a swat team and spying on them before hand.

The problem is this wasn't just over reaction here.  It wasn't just "hey these particular cops were crazy in this one specific instance"  This is part of a larger pattern of cops using swat teams for minor offenses or by mistake and the excuse is always the same.

The law is the law.

I hate to bring this up but that's the kind of thinking authoritarians use to excuse abuses in power.  Whenever that excuse comes up we should look at it really hard.  That's where the outrage is coming from, that this sort of thing seems to be becoming more and more common.  You can't dismiss the outrage if you don't understand why it' s there.

Yes they should have called. They should not have escalated the situation.  At the least someone in the police force should have mentioned that this would reinforce the perception of cops as jack booted thugs and open the dept to charges of misusing tax payer monies.

Oh on a  side note.. when someone stole my plates and used them while stealing gas in Arnold Missouri, the Arnold cops actually DID call me to question me if I was the one who stole the gas.  I explained my plates had been stolen, my car was totally different make/model from the one they said had fled the gas station and somehow 13 law officers did not have to show up to corral me at work or erase pictures off my phone while they searched for the car.

So yeah.. apparently cops do know how to use the phone and there's nothing in procedure that stops them from doing so.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 01:16:10 pm by booley »
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Offline RavynousHunter

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A SWAT team to take down a fawn?  It must've been Osama Bin-Bambi in there.  They were just protecting us from the danger such a powerful creature spawned from the very pits of Hell itself could pose!
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Offline Yla

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It's stupid to be angry at the officers for doing their jobs.
Actually, it's not. Officers aren't robot drones, they're human beings. The idea is that insensible (or worse, corrupt) application of law and force is being questioned instead of blindly followed and if warranted, the officer should decide to use a more moderate approach. If they don't, they have failed their calling. "Doing my job" is called the Nuremberg defense, and guess how and why it got that name. It's not a moral defense, and only barely a legal one.

This is a general point that I stumbled upon in your argumentation and that I'm not going to give you a free pass on. However I'm not about to Godwin because of the deer affair.

That, I think, it's stupidity all around. The shelter could have avoided all this, the police massively overreacted, and now the public (i.e. us) overreacts about the police action.
That said, I've stopped trying to anticipate what people around here want a while ago, I've found it makes things smoother.
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Offline tempus

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You're missing an L and a bracket there, Grapes.

Edit: Reading these articles reminds me of a book I saw in the store about how America's police are becoming more and more akin to military in their tactics and thinking. The problem is, if you're trained to act like an occupying army, you're going to start seeing everyone who lives around you as a potential enemy insurgent. I need to find that book and actually read it, as opposed to just reading the dust jacket.

Just a preview of coming attractions.  This is just the overture.  Make book on it--in the years and decades to come, we're going to be seeing things that make this OR even Kent State look like kindergarten recess.  They've been preparing for this for a long, long time.  Welcome to the Long Emergency--and we're going to have to hit rock bottom before it ever becomes better. 

I read about this. Walker's Wisconsin in a nutshell....Land Of Fiend & Home Of The Insane. How long until Walker's time is up? Maybe that will be the opportunity the Progressive Wisconsinites will be waiting for.

This is heart-breaking. I hope the shelter sues the tar out of those thugs....or something, anything!

I wonder what those two busybodies who "tipped off" the Teeny Peeny Meanie team?

Also, sadly, this.
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Offline Lithp

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The thing is, it's always "a larger problem." Well, give me a story that represents the actual fucking problem. Not something that is completely legal, where no one gets hurt.

Listen, the point is, cops can't just arbitrarily decide which laws they're going to enforce. Why would we WANT them to? No, that is NOT the same as saying that "all laws are just, & we can do whatever we want to uphold them.*

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The fact that the police had to enforce the law isn't what's getting to people, Lithp. It's the completely overblown police reaction to a complete non-threat.
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Offline Lithp

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The fact that the police had to enforce the law isn't what's getting to people, Lithp. It's the completely overblown police reaction to a complete non-threat.

Which is what the law says to do. The policy is to treat it as though it's harboring a substance that could cause a harmful disease outbreak. This is exactly my point, you're upset, so you want to take it out on the first people you see. It's not their fault, & firing them won't solve it.

Offline Shane for Wax

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....

No, they wouldn't call you because you broke the law. That'd be ridiculous. That isn't in procedure. Should they have knocked? Probably. But still. C'mon.

Why would that be ridiculous exactly? 
 We aren't talking about drug dealers here.  No one was going to take that deer and use it to kill anyone.  The shelter wasnt' filled with religious fanatics who were likely to do suicide attacks to keep one baby deer. 

The law is the law.

I hate to bring this up but that's the kind of thinking authoritarians use to excuse abuses in power.  Whenever that excuse comes up we should look at it really hard.  That's where the outrage is coming from, that this sort of thing seems to be becoming more and more common.  You can't dismiss the outrage if you don't understand why it' s there.

Yes they should have called. They should not have escalated the situation.  At the least someone in the police force should have mentioned that this would reinforce the perception of cops as jack booted thugs and open the dept to charges of misusing tax payer monies.

Oh on a  side note.. when someone stole my plates and used them while stealing gas in Arnold Missouri, the Arnold cops actually DID call me to question me if I was the one who stole the gas.  I explained my plates had been stolen, my car was totally different make/model from the one they said had fled the gas station and somehow 13 law officers did not have to show up to corral me at work or erase pictures off my phone while they searched for the car.

So yeah.. apparently cops do know how to use the phone and there's nothing in procedure that stops them from doing so.

That's a completely different situation and context. And I think you know it.

But sure, keep on going with the whole 'everyone who says the cops only followed procedure and the law are being authoritarians'.

God damn I hate hysterical response to anything dealing with cops. Even the positive stories have had people scream about how it's just a cover for something sinister.

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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Offline Jack Mann

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The thing is, it's always "a larger problem." Well, give me a story that represents the actual fucking problem. Not something that is completely legal, where no one gets hurt.

Listen, the point is, cops can't just arbitrarily decide which laws they're going to enforce. Why would we WANT them to? No, that is NOT the same as saying that "all laws are just, & we can do whatever we want to uphold them.*

Here, have some examples.

Yes, the cops job was to make sure the fawn wasn't a threat.  Hell, if they looked over the situation, and it was determined the best thing was still to euthanize the fawn, I don't have a problem with that.  It's sad, but it happens.

But the way they went about it was asinine.  They didn't need to send in what amounted to a SWAT team (no, they weren't actual SWAT, but they sure as hell acted like it).  It was an animal shelter.  A registered animal shelter.  They were not authorized to handle deer, no.  But it's not like there was any reasonable suspicion that violence was imminent.  There was no reason to believe that they would be uncooperative.  Even if they showed up unannounced, they didn't need to intimidate the staff with their weapons, corral them away, and do a room-by-room search for the fawn.

If that's the procedure, then the procedure needs to change, because it's a stupid fucking procedure.  The fact that someone wrote that up as the procedure does not make it right, warranted, or reasonable.  It just means that the person who wrote it is a goddamned idiot. 

There was a cop a while back who shot two dogs that were in kennels because it was the local department's procedure to kill any potentially dangerous animals when entering a house.  The dogs were locked up, and he was told they were locked up.  He still shot, because that was the procedure.  That doesn't mean he was right to do so.  Things are not automatically right and justified because they're by the book.  Sometimes the book's wrong.  Sometimes the situation at hand was not dreamt of when the book was written. 

The police are not above reproach just because they're following procedure.  They're still expected to exercise judgement in unusual situations.  If the rules they follow aren't reasonable, then that needs to be elevated to someone who can change it.
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