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Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: rageaholic on March 04, 2012, 08:22:04 pm

Title: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: rageaholic on March 04, 2012, 08:22:04 pm
Is it just me, or do those who hold Calvinist beliefs tend to have the most warped and fucked up views?  They also say the most darndest things that are hard to tell if they are joking or not.  Example (http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=80865), this douchebag.  He outright admits the god only cares about glory and glorifies himself by causing billions to suffer (implying eternal damnation).  I honestly can't think of a more evil and despicable being than that.  But since Vincent here is one of the "elect", he sees nothing wrong with that.  In fact, he thinks the victims of this diety are the ones who think too highly of themselves if they think their suffering isn't worth gawds precious fucking glory. 

It's the perfect example of what an inhumane, sociopathic, and nonesensical theology it is.  Some other arguements...

-Everyone deserves hell (because of Adams sin), therefore god is gracious in saving some people from such a fate (justifying limited atonement).

-When taken further into hyper calvinism, they claim that God controls everything and uses everything for his glory, even evil and hell (which explains the mindset behind the above quote).  They use abusive verses comparing humans to clay pots to remind of that we are god's property.  I should also note that Westboro Baptist are hyper Calvinists.  THAT should tell you a lot. 

-They are completely unsympathetic toward the suffering of others.  Since they think everyone deserves hell, they say no one has the right to complain about suffering. 

-They are obsessed with sementics and will twist them to cover contradictions.  How can a god of love create people just to send them to hell (or even create such a place to begin with)?  Well we're confused with the "secular" definition of love.  God's idea of "love" is higher than ours.  They also twist verses that claim all will be saved to mean only the elect. 

-They accuse others or being prideful for ignoring the scriptural support for predestination.  Yes, these are the "elect" accusing others of pride.  Of we're probably confused with the secular definintion of pride.   ::)

-When people question the morality of Calvinism, they will try to get philosophical.  "Wrong by who'se standards?" they'll say.  Since we can't point to an objective source of morality (their evil god), we obviously can't say anything is wrong.  Even if an action causes suffering, they'll ask why suffering is wrong.  Ultimately, their arguements will come down to "god's ways our higher than ours" so just shut up and accept.  Even though they can't give ANY OBJECTIVE PROOF THAT THEIR GOD EXISTS, they are right and we're wrong.

Just to see another example of the fruits of Calvinism, look in the comments of this article (http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/03/am-i-afraid-of-hell.html).  Search for a poster named "Calvin" and you'll see just how arrogant and terrifying these people are.  In his first post, he actually admits that he will be happy with god's judgement if he sends his son to hell.  When people call him out on it, he gets defensive of his "holy and righteous god" and starts attacking people, actually praising god's "justice".  Again, people tell him that most Christians on that site they get along with fine, but that Calvin is being a real asshole.  He then says that he's not there to get anyone to like him, he's just preaching the truth.  Later along the line, he admits that when he's in heaven, he will rejoice in seeing others sent to hell.  A real class act.   ::)

I can't say for sure, but it sounds like John Calvin and other reformed theologians were trying to answer the problem of evil.  However, in doing so, they create a theology which is evil.  It encourages unfairness (the elect bullshit) and brings out Darkness Induced Audience Apathy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy).  I'm not a fan of arminism or any theology which condemns people to eternal torment, but at least the other ones aren't nearly as cold or depressing as Calvinism. 
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: gyeonghwa on March 04, 2012, 08:34:48 pm
Is it just me, or do those who hold Calvinist beliefs tend to have the most warped and fucked up views?

It's not just you.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: RavynousHunter on March 04, 2012, 08:50:38 pm
Nope...pretty much everyone but Calvinists think Calvinists are utter shitheads, and that their god is a monster.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Mechtaur on March 04, 2012, 09:11:48 pm
The one thing I even find remotely respectable about the Calvinist sect is that they at least acknowledge what life means if Yahweh is completely omnipotent and omniscient.

But, remote respect isn't really worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on March 04, 2012, 09:17:22 pm
Let's put it this way: Rapture Ready makes fun of Calvinists. One user has a signature that says, "I would be a Calvinist, but I guess it wasn't meant to be."
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: rageaholic on March 04, 2012, 10:30:29 pm
The one thing I even find remotely respectable about the Calvinist sect is that they at least acknowledge what life means if Yahweh is completely omnipotent and omniscient.

But, remote respect isn't really worth mentioning.

Yeah, they don't skit around the issue of free will and evil.  That's probably because they become evil when they hold onto such soul sucking views.

Let's put it this way: Rapture Ready makes fun of Calvinists. One user has a signature that says, "I would be a Calvinist, but I guess it wasn't meant to be."

Wow...

Even insanity has standards.  They may be insane, but they are not soulless (at least not completely). 

Let me put it this way, most fundies and apologists would visit a cancer ward and try to rationalize the suffering into god's mighty plan.  To them, the suffering will strengthen the soul for heaven, or allow others to preach the good news.  As crazy as that might sound, at least they have good intentions.

The Calvinist would just see this as an evil sinner getting their just deserts.  Or if they're feeling really spiteful, god's mercy for not immediately casting them into hell. 

I'd take a cloud cuckoolander or well intentioned extremest over a complete monster any day. 
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Auri-El on March 04, 2012, 11:08:09 pm
My parents are Calvinists (I think). Not quite that extreme, they're not really vocal about it, but they do have some messed up views. They aren't unsympathetic to suffering, but they do believe that it's part of God's plan and that all we can do is "grin and bear it." The biggest difference between them and some of the wackier Calvinists is that while they kind of believe in predestination, they say that "since we don't know, it's our job to convert as many people as possible." They genuinely believe if they don't witness to people every chance they get, they're going to be held accountable for that person going to hell.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on March 05, 2012, 03:27:32 am
Let's put it this way: Rapture Ready makes fun of Calvinists. One user has a signature that says, "I would be a Calvinist, but I guess it wasn't meant to be."

Eh, RR's doctrine has some Calvinist leanings, even if they're not always quite so overt about it. The free will they speak of strikes me as rather superficial, what with the talk of god already knowing every single outcome in advance, and the occasional throwing around of catchphrases like "Many are called, few are chosen".

Now, if you want to see bald-face Calvinism taken to its extremes, look no further than the WBC.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: rookie on March 05, 2012, 04:42:18 pm


Now, if you want to see bald-face Calvinism taken to its extremes, look no further than the WBC.

Harold camping, the guy who was almost right about the end of the world three times straight, was also a strict Calvinist.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: StallChaser on March 06, 2012, 03:19:43 am
Calvinism is probably the best argument ever made for sin and debauchery.  So we can't change what happens to us?  Fuck it, lets have as much fun as possible while it still lasts!
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on March 06, 2012, 07:55:40 am
After all, that wild, naked romp of gambling, booze and drug-fueled sex is all part of god's plan. Can you imagine god sitting there like, "And then Bob will do a line of coke off of a hooker's ass crack. Let it be so."?
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Old Viking on March 07, 2012, 06:38:28 pm
Calvinism is silliness with a mordant twist.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Atheissimo on March 07, 2012, 07:07:37 pm
IMHO Calvinism is everything that is wrong with modern Christianity (or Christianity at any time, actually). They freely admit that their God is a jealous, petty, genocidal tyrant, but they don't care because they think they've gotten on his good side. It's the ultimate in shitheadedness and lack of care for others. If they were anywhere near as moral or good as they claim to be they would ditch or actively oppose such a monster, but they've sided with the playground bully and fuck everyone else. It's the most transparent example of Christianity as revenge fantasy, the way they sic their God on everybody like their own personal attack dog.

Without Godwinning myself too badly, it's like signing up for the SS as soon as it looks like ol' Adolf might be going places. What's even more annoying is that pointing out all the terrible stuff God does in the Bible doesn't work on them. On your regular white-bread Church of England type it causes them to go into all sorts of apologetic gymnastics and hand waving, but Calvinists are so convinced they've kissed the right ass that they'll justify anything (they think) God did or wants to do because anything he does is automatically moral and right. And they seem so  smug about it too because they genuinely believe that everyone who opposes them will be tortured for eternity while they watch from their ring-side seats, stroking away with Princess Palm and her five lovely daughters. Watch them trying to outdo each other in being the most worthless and unworthy, believing that every crawling syllable brings them closer to safety.

They say atheism de-values humanity, what about when you consider the average moral Christian to be less than dirt? Where does that leave the people they consider to be evil?

(/rant)
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: rageaholic on March 07, 2012, 08:59:04 pm
My parents are Calvinists (I think). Not quite that extreme, they're not really vocal about it, but they do have some messed up views. They aren't unsympathetic to suffering, but they do believe that it's part of God's plan and that all we can do is "grin and bear it." The biggest difference between them and some of the wackier Calvinists is that while they kind of believe in predestination, they say that "since we don't know, it's our job to convert as many people as possible." They genuinely believe if they don't witness to people every chance they get, they're going to be held accountable for that person going to hell.

The bolded part is also common in some arminianist circles (I think Baptists).  It's a scary and enraging belief.  It's horrible to think that you have the eternal fate of so many people in your hands, especially if you're a shy person.  It's also typical blame the victim.  God blames you for being forced to send people to hell. 

This sounds more like four point Calvinism to me.  They reject limited atonement go with the idea that God knew who would reject and accept Christ.  It still sounds like a crap shoot though.  Just a crap shoot you have more control over.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: StallChaser on March 08, 2012, 12:56:34 am
After all, that wild, naked romp of gambling, booze and drug-fueled sex is all part of god's plan. Can you imagine god sitting there like, "And then Bob will do a line of coke off of a hooker's ass crack. Let it be so."?

He certainly never stops that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: N. De Plume on March 13, 2012, 10:05:58 pm
He outright admits the god only cares about glory and glorifies himself by causing billions to suffer (implying eternal damnation).

I never understood how the hell simply fixing problems you created for no other reason than because you could was supposed to correlate with glory. That is just being a dick.

I mean: would you hold someone who came up and intentionally tore your favorite coat for no good reason in higher regard just because they then sewed it back up for you? That is just being a douchebag.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: rageaholic on March 17, 2012, 08:44:50 pm
Oh my...

I have no words.

I just found a Calvinist article that claims CHILDREN AND INFANTS (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/account.html) are damned if they die without Jesus.  It's long and is honestly too sickening to read the whole thing, but here are a few snippits.

Quote
Since this is undoubtedly true, then from the womb, we are all sinners. Those people who say babies don't have any sin are lacking knowledge of God's laws and truths. Since there are no exceptions to God's law, "the wages of sin is death," there can be no (theorized) non-accountability clause. Unlike the laws of men, the laws of God don't bend. There is none righteous God says, no not one! He didn't say that there are none righteous except babies. Those are the thoughts of men, not of God! There is none righteous, and that includes children (despite what some may claim). Romans 5:12 says: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." It doesn't say "all except for children," it says all.
When God said in Genesis 18 that if there were 10 righteous people in Sodom, He wouldn't destroy them, some professing Christians obviously think God was lying, because they insist the children there had to be righteous in God's eyes! Not so! They were burned in the city right along with the older people (revisionist accounting notwithstanding). God saved only Lot and his two daughters whom 'He had chosen' to Save. None of the rest were righteous in God's sight! Did God say get the Children out before I rain fire and brimstone, or did God bring out Lot and his house only? The truth is, over 99 percent of the scriptures has to be either ignored, wrested, or tossed aside, in order to hold to the doctrine that Children are somehow automatically accounted righteous before God.

Quote
While these doctrines of accountability may serve to comfort bereaved parents who have lost children, either through accidents, murder, miscarriage, abortion, or sickness, it is not a Biblically validated view and is contrary to all that God has declared of sin and all those who commit it. The plain truth is, this theory is simply a natural humanistic response in sentimentality that is closely related to man thinking more of himself than is justified. i.e., we naturally all want to think nice things about children. But sentimentality does not govern how we are to understand God's word, it is the word itself that does that. And God doesn't share the popular Church opinion that a child's sins are unaccountable because of their age.

There are no words to describe the sociopathic EVIL found within this article.  This fucking original sin/total deprevity is a monsterous doctrine that has been used to justify so much evil.  I'm honestly surprised there haven't been any Calvinistic terrorist groups with this kind of mentality. 

I normally don't wish harm on people just for having strange beliefs, but these people need to DIAF slowly and painfully.  I don't care how fucking holy any God is, this shit is beyond evil. 
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on March 17, 2012, 08:45:48 pm
Well, it's sort of like my opinion on people like Peter Singer or Ayn Rand. Even if I don't agree with them, I admire how often they follow their ideas to their logical conclusion.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: e13 on March 17, 2012, 09:02:58 pm
Well, it's sort of like my opinion on people like Peter Singer or Ayn Rand. Even if I don't agree with them, I admire how often they follow their ideas to their logical conclusion.
I despise Rand... but I respect her for honestly thinking her ideas through and embracing them.

Her modern day "followers" confuse me, because they often contradict her teachings of "when I say no involvement in my shit, I mean NO INVOLVEMENT! And that means your God too! Now let me milk these people for money..."
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Damen on March 17, 2012, 11:20:28 pm
"Any man who enjoys heaven's paradise while others suffer eternally is a gloating villain at heart." ~ Normal Bob Smith (http://www.normalbobsmith.com/), 2006 (http://normalbobsmith.com/hatemail261.html)
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on March 17, 2012, 11:23:39 pm
"Any man who enjoys heaven's paradise while others suffer eternally is a gloating villain at heart." ~ Normal Bob Smith (http://www.normalbobsmith.com/), 2006 (http://normalbobsmith.com/hatemail261.html)

I <3 Normal Bob Smith. His troll-mocking skills are legendary.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Auri-El on March 18, 2012, 12:35:16 am
don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely not defending Calvinism. But the accountability doctrine does have biblical merit: the story of David, when he lost his infant son and he said that he would see his son again in paradise. Assholes who think babies go to hell are just assholes; it's their claims that have no biblical merit.

That said, they all suck.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: rageaholic on March 18, 2012, 11:44:47 am
I think what really gets me about Calvinists is not so much the idea of predestination (though that does not help their cause), but their utter lack of humanity. 

They think that if God were to somehow allow us a say, it would be "us telling god what to do".  They love to quote that horrific verse about the clay questioning the potter as if we are just God's property for him to do as he pleases.  When people are justifybly disturbed at the idea of eternal torment and how God creates some people for the sole purpose of sending them their, they get even more nasty.  "How is that immoral?"  "Just because you don't like it?" "How arrogant for you to assume to know what's moral!".  They can't even figure out why the idea of inflicting pain on someone is wrong.  And they hide behind their douchey philosophical bullshit to try to sound smart. 

What's worse is they think WE are arrogant or "too emotional" to think that sending children and infants to hell (let alone anyone) is wrong.  They say it's our "pride" but I say it's basic human empathy, something they severly lack. 
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: N. De Plume on March 18, 2012, 02:01:42 pm
What's worse is they think WE are arrogant or "too emotional" to think that sending children and infants to hell (let alone anyone) is wrong.  They say it's our "pride" but I say it's basic human empathy, something they severly lack. 

Hear, hear! It is not arrogant to care for others.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Witchyjoshy on March 19, 2012, 01:49:47 pm
When I think of Calvinism, I think of a kid playing with a whole bunch of puppets, the kinda that have the strings and the wooden boards.

And then destroying the puppets on a whim.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: e13 on March 19, 2012, 02:32:45 pm
When I think of Calvinism, I think of a kid playing with a whole bunch of puppets, the kinda that have the strings and the wooden boards.

And then destroying the puppets on a whim.
He loves those puppets in a way you just can't understand!
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: DharmicDalek on March 19, 2012, 07:57:06 pm
You know, this is what I think:

The Pentecostals/Charismatics are fucking insane, and live in an animist worldview where every single demon is out to get them and they need to PRAY,PRAY,PRAY every single moment so Satan won't steal your soul because you have an old D and D book you have not even opened in 8 years. It makes God weak and pathetic.

However...

Calvinism is downright fucking Satanic. Your God and Your Satan are non-different. Satan may actually BE the lesser evil in Calvinism. Every Ethical, Moral person should be proud of being damned if the Calvinists are "right"; you'd be more MORAL then god!

And this is why I am not Christian.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: MadCatTLX on March 19, 2012, 08:08:33 pm
You know, this is what I think:

The Pentecostals/Charismatics are fucking insane, and live in an animist worldview where every single demon is out to get them and they need to PRAY,PRAY,PRAY every single moment so Satan won't steal your soul because you have an old D and D book you have not even opened in 8 years. It makes God weak and pathetic.

However...

Calvinism is downright fucking Satanic. Your God and Your Satan are non-different. Satan may actually BE the lesser evil in Calvinism. Every Ethical, Moral person should be proud of being damned if the Calvinists are "right"; you'd be more MORAL then god!

And this is why I am not Christian.

Satan sounds good in MOST versions of Christianity. Whereas god usually sounds like a childish asshole.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: DharmicDalek on March 19, 2012, 08:12:49 pm

Satan sounds good in MOST versions of Christianity. Whereas god usually sounds like a childish asshole.

Yes, but the other versions give the "God is good" line of thinking, and the Calvinists don't even PRETEND to do that...
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Damen on March 19, 2012, 11:47:12 pm
(http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/files/2011/12/5.jpg)
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on March 20, 2012, 12:08:44 am
Uh... who is that, exactly?
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Witchyjoshy on March 20, 2012, 12:22:38 am
Uh... who is that, exactly?

Lucifer
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: N. De Plume on March 20, 2012, 06:43:15 am
Uh... who is that, exactly?

Lucifer
And from where is this depiction?
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: rageaholic on March 20, 2012, 10:27:29 am

Satan sounds good in MOST versions of Christianity. Whereas god usually sounds like a childish asshole.

Yes, but the other versions give the "God is good" line of thinking, and the Calvinists don't even PRETEND to do that...

Eh, sort of.  I've heard some justify it saying that God is good but we are too sinful and evil to understand his ways. 

I read a quote somewhere which said it best

"The primary difference between Calvinists and HP Lovecraft is that the latter admits that the gods he invented are evil, whereas the former do not."
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Damen on March 20, 2012, 01:25:54 pm
Uh... who is that, exactly?

Lucifer
And from where is this depiction?

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/good-guy-lucifer (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/good-guy-lucifer)
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: e13 on March 20, 2012, 01:31:48 pm

Satan sounds good in MOST versions of Christianity. Whereas god usually sounds like a childish asshole.

Yes, but the other versions give the "God is good" line of thinking, and the Calvinists don't even PRETEND to do that...

Eh, sort of.  I've heard some justify it saying that God is good but we are too sinful and evil to understand his ways. 

I read a quote somewhere which said it best

"The primary difference between Calvinists and HP Lovecraft is that the latter admits that the gods he invented are evil, whereas the former do not."
I never understood that. We can not understand him in his mysterious super-being-ness, but the way we interpret the gospels, as put down by other sinners and humans, MUST be 100% accurate.

You could counter, "God is all powerful and ENSURED we were given the true text," but hey, he IS mysterious. Could be trolling us in a loving way you just can't understand...
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: MadCatTLX on March 20, 2012, 11:40:26 pm
Oh my...

I have no words.

I just found a Calvinist article that claims CHILDREN AND INFANTS (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/account.html) are damned if they die without Jesus.

Having read the page I appalled. As an atheist I can't help but wonder why someone would think infants deserve to be in hell. This kind of beliefs make god out to be an asshole that should be hated, not worshiped. How do they justify this shit? No really, I would love to know.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: Witchyjoshy on March 21, 2012, 05:14:36 am
Oh my...

I have no words.

I just found a Calvinist article that claims CHILDREN AND INFANTS (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/account.html) are damned if they die without Jesus.

Having read the page I appalled. As an atheist I can't help but wonder why someone would think infants deserve to be in hell.

Because Adam ate an apple.
Title: Re: Calvinist Fundies
Post by: N. De Plume on March 21, 2012, 07:05:43 am
When they say, “Everyone deserves to go to hell,” they fuckin’ mean it!