Author Topic: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"  (Read 10408 times)

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Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2016, 08:29:06 pm »
As I mentioned, I was going to talk about the internment camps and the Dresden bombing when I got home. Well, I'm home now, so let's talk about them. First of all, the internment camps. Let's get some music while I write this up:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05UbWVW7-oM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05UbWVW7-oM</a>

Now, I'm sure we all know the story. In 1941, Imperial Japan attacked the US on the naval base of Pearl Harbor, and America was pulled headlong into the war. In response, Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, which authorized regional military commanders to designate parts of America as military zones from which they could exclude just about anyone they wanted - and they did, declaring pretty much the entire west coast off limits to Japanese-Americans. And what did they say was a Japanese-American, these evil people who had to be put into cramped camps with soldiers watching them and nearly their entire net worth taken away? Well, simple: anyone who had a Japanese grandparent or closer. Over 130,000 Japanese-Americans were put into these cramped internment camps and kept until the end of the war.

I do want to note something here - despite being at war with Germany as well, no action was ever taken against German-Americans, or even pro-Nazi groups in America. Isn't that strange? It's almost like the internment camps were motivated more by racism than by actual concerns about national security. In fact, the United States government admitted as such, over forty years later during the administration of Ronald Reagan:

Quote
(3) There was no military or security reason for the internment;
(4) The internment of the individuals of Japanese ancestry was caused by racial prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership

Here's the source of that quote for ya.

Where does this fall in the definition I gave above? That's principle one - the deliberate targeting of civilians, in this case even American civilians.

So how about Dresden? I've already heard a couple of explanations here - that it was done because those people in Dresden were on the side of the Nazis, and that's how war was fought back then. Very well. It doesn't make it right or righteous to deliberately firebomb entire cities, killing over twenty thousand people - and not even making the barest attempt to minimize civilian casualties. Indeed, even at the time people looked at the bombing of Dresden with unease. Even Winston Churchill was quick to distance himself from the bombing, saying:

Quote
It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land… The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.

The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive.

Here's a source for that quote, by the way. It only took him a few weeks to distance himself from the firebombing that he had ordered... a classic sign that he knew what he was doing was immoral, and did it anyway.

By the way, that's a violation of principle two in the definition I gave above, for those of you keeping score.

So with these two examples, I make the claim that the United States and Britain cannot claim themselves as morally righteous in World War II. We were not the "good guys". All we were were the "significantly less bad guys".
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2016, 08:57:29 pm »
This thread is stupid. It is clear that America was the "good guys" in World War II for plenty of reasons.

First, we're America and we won. End of discussion right there. We won, so we got to write the history and make ourselves the good guys. And did I mention that we're America. We are literally made of nothing but good guys: G.I. Joe, an Eagle, Tom Brady (when he's not cheating), and Hulk Hogan (but not after 1992). You can't get more good guy than America.

Second, we weren't the ones killing millions of Jews. And that's really fucked up. Yeah, America did terrible things in the past, and today, but we can conveniently forget those ugly details: at least we didn't kill a bunch of Jews.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 08:59:05 pm by The_Queen »
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Offline Skybison

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2016, 10:12:11 pm »
The first thing is that we should also mention the Bengal Famine.  At least in terms of sheer numbers it was the worst thing the western allies did but it often gets less attention.

Ultimately, no the Western Allies weren't "good guys."  They did evil ruthless acts against the enemy that were not needed for victory.  Nor were we fighting a crusade against evil, we were motivated by the same balance of power politics that motivated the first world war or the war of Spanish Succession.

But the gap in how bad was still enormous.  The Axis Powers bare all the responsibility for starting the war, and the scale of the crimes they committed surpass ours by one or two orders of magnitude.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2016, 10:19:41 pm »
^  ^
This.
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Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2016, 10:24:27 pm »
But the gap in how bad was still enormous.  The Axis Powers bare all the responsibility for starting the war, and the scale of the crimes they committed surpass ours by one or two orders of magnitude.

Except that no one here is sympathizing with the Axis Powers, or trying to say that they were in any way the "good guys" of the war. Think about it this way: The US and the UK get a C- on the grading scale of morality. Germany and Japan got an F.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2016, 12:18:12 am »
But the gap in how bad was still enormous.  The Axis Powers bare all the responsibility for starting the war, and the scale of the crimes they committed surpass ours by one or two orders of magnitude.

Except that no one here is sympathizing with the Axis Powers, or trying to say that they were in any way the "good guys" of the war. Think about it this way: The US and the UK get a C- on the grading scale of morality. Germany and Japan got an F.
It's not the "good guys" and the "bad guys", it's the "what the actual fuck guys" and the "oh will you guys just fucking die already."

Offline lord gibbon

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2016, 12:20:06 am »
Yeah, I'll just say this. The axis were definitely the "bad guys" in the war, but any side with Stalin in the leadership does not get to be called the "good guys".
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Offline davedan

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2016, 12:44:14 am »
If good is purely relative, that is not as bad as the Axis. Well yes.

Offline Skybison

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2016, 06:01:12 pm »
@Eiki

No one here is, but the idea that there is a moral equivalence I have run into enough times, at least in the case of Japan, that I do think it should be said that no there isn't.  Like when the movie The Wind Rises came out I was in the minority of anime fans who disliked it for the way it whitewashes Japan's actions in the war and makes excuses for the protagonist, mostly based on false dilemmas.  Then I had to spend plenty of time arguing that yes nuking Japanese cities was bad but there was a big difference between what the US and Japan were doing and why they were fighting.

Offline Askold

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2016, 12:09:44 am »
It's not easy to find a past war where even one side did not commit any atrocities or war crimes. It's a bit easier if you accept an army that did not condone said war crimes and punished those who were guilty.

For the record, I participate in few groups where military and historical military matters are the topic and I often get frustrated by people who defend war crimes and other atrocities. "War's not supposed to be nice and we won so therefore it was ok." "If we don't torture the terrorists then how are we supposed to win the war on terror? I'd like to see your family killed by an attack that could have been prevented with waterboarding!"

...Except that torture provides a lot of false positives and the false information is usually more trouble than the few true bits help. And being nice to the terrorist suspect that you interrogate has been proven to be four times more likely to make them confess and FOURTEEN (14) times more likely to make them confess early in the interrogation than by using torture (It was a real study.) so by not being a monster you are actually more effective.

Anyway, my view on WW2 and "villains and heroes" in it is that if the Axis hadn't been beaten they would have ended up being worse than the allied. Stalin got a bigger body-count than Hitler but that's because Stalin survived the war and had more time to kill people. Germany and Japan in particular did horrible things and I see no reason to think that they wouldn't have continued slaughtering people if they had won instead.

The allies also did some nasty stuff but they are still the "lesser evil." USA in particular has historically done horrible stuff during their wars. Like murdering a bunch of British POVs during WW2. They saw a German submarine carrying British prisoners from a boat they had sunk (As was the way at that time, if you can save your enemies from drowning do so and bring them to a prison camp.) and despite the clear red cross and the radio message from the submarine the bomber was given the order to sink the submarine (which would have obviously killed the Brits) but the sub dived and escaped when the bombing started leaving the British sailors to drown. Yay?

US military also fought under false flag and wearing enemy uniforms, which is something the German infiltrator units specifically avoided as they knew it was illegal. But USA still had German infiltrators executed as war criminals even though they were the ones who hadn't violated the laws.

...So yeah, I just can't see the Allies as the Good Guys (tm) even though they did do a lot of good as well. More like anti-heroes.
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Offline TheContrarian

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2016, 08:45:59 am »
Stalin got a bigger body-count than Hitler but that's because Stalin survived the war and had more time to kill people.

I agree with most of your post but this is total horseshit.

Yes Stalin survived Hitler by 7 years, but the worst of his atrocities were prewar.

The purges began in 1936 and the Holodomor (which by itself almost matches the total civilian bodycount racked up by Nazi Germany) was only a two year period.


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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2016, 11:20:48 am »
...And if the Nazis had won how many people would they have purged? The holocaust had millions of victims and that was just from the areas they were able to conquer.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2016, 11:32:10 am »
...And if the Nazis had won how many people would they have purged? The holocaust had millions of victims and that was just from the areas they were able to conquer.

By the same token, how many people would Stalin have purged had he lived longer?

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2016, 11:46:09 am »
Hard to say. He had already taken out everyone he considered a threat (so far) and after the purge in the army bit him in the ass he was likely more careful about such measures.  But the only motive I can think of for Holodomor is the need to cover up his failure so such things might have happened again but as Conty said, Stalin had already done most of the killing he wanted to do.

Meanwhile I can guarantee that Hitler and the Germans would have shed more blood had they won. More purges and then another war as soon as they would have been ready for one.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: World War II: Were the Western Allies the "Good Guys?"
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2016, 12:20:26 pm »
Hard to say. He had already taken out everyone he considered a threat (so far) and after the purge in the army bit him in the ass he was likely more careful about such measures.  But the only motive I can think of for Holodomor is the need to cover up his failure so such things might have happened again but as Conty said, Stalin had already done most of the killing he wanted to do.

Meanwhile I can guarantee that Hitler and the Germans would have shed more blood had they won. More purges and then another war as soon as they would have been ready for one.

The first part of your statement isn't entirely accurate.  At the time of his death, Stalin was planning a massive anti-Semitic purge.