World Trade Center found-object Cross still burns American Atheists' chaps

[mellenORL]

I put this here, rather than in Religion & Philosophy, because the object in question is a coincidentally cross-shaped steel I-beam support post junction that resulted from the building collapse. There are rivet finger joints cut into the lateral beam at equal points along it's width, so it broke up into the shape of a nearly perfect Christian cross, with similar proportions between vertical and horizontal members. The aftermath of 9/11 at World Trade was very gruesome, dangerous and depressing for the rescue and retrieval workers. Those who felt so inclined, took comfort in standing and quietly praying or meditating for the victims in front of it while on work breaks. That is a well-documented historical incident.

As an atheist, I am angered by the law suit brought by American Atheists (who the fuck are they, anyway? A special project committee to stir up the fundie voters?) to ban the cross artifact from being displayed in the 9/11 museum. If there were other religious artifacts found at the disaster site, they would be displayed at the museum, too. The lawsuit is petty, and misses the point that the object is historically and archeologically in context with the site, and documents the history of 9/11 at World Trade. It is not  duplicitous proselytizing , such as a purchased, man-made engraved Ten Commandments or cross being installed in a government building or courthouse entry.

http://www.today.com/news/world-trade-center-cross-fight-continues-athiest-group-appeals-ruling-2D79328902
Picture below of the object as it was being crated for storage at one of the warehouses where all other large evidence pieces were gathered for forensic analysis.




Picture below of the object earlier in the recovery work, as it was found, with a torn bit of sheet steel cladding still attached to it.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Why don't these people go after more important things, like state laws banning Atheists from running for office?  This is not only completely pointless and dumb, it makes them look bad.

[Dakota Bob]

Am I the only one that thinks people taking comfort in that steel cross is fucking morbid? "Hey guys, sorry I couldn't save those 3,000 people, but have this cross instead!"

who the fuck are they, anyway? A special project committee to stir up the fundie voters?

According to the website of American Atheists:

American Atheists fights to protect the absolute separation of religion from government and raise the profile of atheism in the public discourse

And since for some strange reason the United States of America can't seem to handle the seperation of church and state very well, having an organization like this that fights any example of those two overlapping seems to me a good thing, no matter how belligerent they may be, or unpopular their causes. I don't particularly agree with removing the cross from the museum, but I support the general aims of AA. Somebody has to try and counter-act america's overabundance of religious nuts

[Ironchew]

It's like worshipping the remains of an electric chair found in a burnt-out penetentiary. Bonus points for a cross being such a simple shape that Christians can find it in just about anything.

American Atheists (who the fuck are they, anyway?

Ever heard of Murray v. Curlett? The lawsuit that ended mandatory prayer in public schools? You can thank the founder of American Atheists for that, which is more than I can say for the sorry excuses that pass as "social justice" organizations nowadays.

The lawsuit is petty

Funny how fundies say that whenever their privileged position in society is ever challenged. Giant crosses with spotlights on them in public places, school prayer, etc. You can bet if they found a competing religion's symbol in that tower, it would have been chucked into the scrap heap.

It is not  duplicitous proselytizing

Maybe not when it was coincidentally left there, but now that it's an object of reverence with religious people trying to force it into a museum owned by a non-profit, it certainly is. These are the same people getting their panties in a twist about the "ground zero mosque", so I'm sure proselytizing is their main aim here.

[The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist]

I don't particularly have a problem with the cross being displayed as long as it's presented as a historic artifact and not actually endorsed as a "sign from god". Acknowledging its historical significance hardly infringes on anyone's rights.

[Meshakhad]

I don't particularly have a problem with the cross being displayed as long as it's presented as a historic artifact and not actually endorsed as a "sign from god". Acknowledging its historical significance hardly infringes on anyone's rights.

Agreed. It is a historical artifact. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Old Viking]

Making a problem where none exists. 

[mellenORL]

It's like worshipping the remains of an electric chair found in a burnt-out penetentiary. Bonus points for a cross being such a simple shape that Christians can find it in just about anything.

American Atheists (who the fuck are they, anyway?

Ever heard of Murray v. Curlett? The lawsuit that ended mandatory prayer in public schools? You can thank the founder of American Atheists for that, which is more than I can say for the sorry excuses that pass as "social justice" organizations nowadays.

The lawsuit is petty

Funny how fundies say that whenever their privileged position in society is ever challenged. Giant crosses with spotlights on them in public places, school prayer, etc. You can bet if they found a competing religion's symbol in that tower, it would have been chucked into the scrap heap.

It is not  duplicitous proselytizing

Maybe not when it was coincidentally left there, but now that it's an object of reverence with religious people trying to force it into a museum owned by a non-profit, it certainly is. These are the same people getting their panties in a twist about the "ground zero mosque", so I'm sure proselytizing is their main aim here.

The 9/11 Museum and it's curators are not a religious organization. The cross object is not being forced into the display collection. American Atheists are trying to force it's removal from the display. It's just a physical artifact that some found comforting during the salvage operations. It is no more appropriate to remove it than to remove some of the found necklaces, prayer beads (both Catholic and Muslim) and rings of victims, some of which had religious symbols, including the Star of David. Also, I'm not sure if you are just enthusiastically defending the separation of church and state, or if you mistook me to be a fundie. I am an atheist, having reached that decision by the time I was 11, back in 1971.

[Sigmaleph]

American Atheists (who the fuck are they, anyway? A special project committee to stir up the fundie voters?)

American Atheists are the guys who run those billboards and bus ads about atheism (which are usually considered super offensive because how dare atheists remind us they exist). They have also sued the IRS for giving churches preferential status, Kentucky for claiming that you can't have security without God, and Bradford County, FL for having a monument to the Ten Commandments in front of the courthouse. They also do a lot of other stuff you can find on their website. Their president (David Silverman) sometimes goes to Fox News and prompts them to say stupid things (you might recall O'Reilly's "Tide goes in, tide goes out, can't explain that" bit)

Point being, not everything they do is as pointless as this.

[lord gibbon]

Honestly, I find it kinda odd that AA are doing this. As Sigma said, They're a very good organization, so I don't fully see why they focus on something minor like this.

[gyeonghwa]

You may be interesting to know that American Atheists applied to be part of CPAC (Conservative Political Action Conference), and was only rejected after Focus on the Family threw a hissy-fit.

[Sylvana]

Am I the only one that thinks people taking comfort in that steel cross is fucking morbid? "Hey guys, sorry I couldn't save those 3,000 people, but have this cross instead!"

I am so glad I am not the only one who felt like that.
Personally, I find the christian fascination with roman methods of torturous execution kind of sick in general. However in this case it just seems so much worse. I can understand the religious symbolism of going to the site and praying, but doing so in front of a piece of conveniently shaped wreckage just feels like an insult to the people who died. Like a willful blindness to the sheer level of destruction by focusing on a pretty shape. It just feels completely crazy to me.

That said, I dont mind them showing the cross in the museum as a historical artifact. Unfortunately given the position that Christianity holds in America and how eager far too many people are to push their religion into the public space, I cant help but feel that the wreckage will not simply be displayed as a historic artifact and will be given some kind of religious preference and focus in the museum.

After all, its one thing to display it and say "In the aftermath of the attack, many people paid their respects in front of this cross shaped wreckage as befits their religion." and to say "After the attack god gave hope to the good people of America by giving us a symbol of his love and commitment to us." The second option is quite clearly inappropriate for the museum, but still the kind of thing that I could easily see them doing.

[The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist]

I am so glad I am not the only one who felt like that.
Personally, I find the christian fascination with roman methods of torturous execution kind of sick in general. However in this case it just seems so much worse. I can understand the religious symbolism of going to the site and praying, but doing so in front of a piece of conveniently shaped wreckage just feels like an insult to the people who died. Like a willful blindness to the sheer level of destruction by focusing on a pretty shape. It just feels completely crazy to me.

There's no denying that it's morbid and more than a little crazy. The proportions between the beams are superficially impressive, but given the size and structure of the towers, I'd have been surprised if they didn't find something that resembled the Christian cross. Likewise, the notion that a loving god would limit his miracles on 9/11 to something as meaningless as a cross instead of, I dunno, maybe preventing the entire thing from happening is just a wee bit asinine.

Unfortunately given the position that Christianity holds in America and how eager far too many people are to push their religion into the public space, I cant help but feel that the wreckage will not simply be displayed as a historic artifact and will be given some kind of religious preference and focus in the museum.

After all, its one thing to display it and say "In the aftermath of the attack, many people paid their respects in front of this cross shaped wreckage as befits their religion." and to say "After the attack god gave hope to the good people of America by giving us a symbol of his love and commitment to us." The second option is quite clearly inappropriate for the museum, but still the kind of thing that I could easily see them doing.

Best way to handle that is to monitor how it's displayed and raise a stink if the cross is treated as anything other than an artifact.

[Ghoti]

Considering how bog-standard crossbeams are in architecture, I don't know why anyone is making a big deal of it.

[Sigmaleph]

By the way, this isn't the first time AA has been shitty. They also tried to get a Star of David removed from a public Holocaust memorial because it was supposedly "marginalizing" non-Jewish victims.

Well, damn. I know they could be assholes sometimes but just... damn.