Author Topic: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest  (Read 15511 times)

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Offline I am lizard

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2015, 10:35:52 pm »
ISIS: We are responsible for two idiots getting themselves shot dead in the craziest fucking state in the USA.
Florida disagrees.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2015, 10:52:43 pm »
I think it is ridiculous to suggest that Islam cannot be a peaceful religion because what is in the Quaran. Equally bloody and genocidal chapters are in the old testament, yet you don't hear (mainstream/not fuckwit) people suggesting that Judaism is inherently violent and redeemable.

But I'm sure this sort of attitude makes sure that muslims don't feel isolated from the rest of the community and therefore more prone to radicalization.
Read the Torah. Then look at modern Judaism. You'll be shocked by how different the two are. It was Jewish theologians who came up with the Documentary Hypothesis for the origins of the Torah. Furthermore, many Jewish religious schools emphasize critical thinking and debate, even against God himself. Just imagine how that would fly in an American Christian Sunday School!

That's kind of the point. The argument that Islam is inherently violent because of the Quran implies that Christianity and Judaism should also be inherently violent because of the Old Testament. Since people can take a look at a bloody and violent holy texts and then reinterpret the fuck out of it in Judaism and Christianity, we should assume Muslims also have that same ability and look for explanations of violence elsewhere.
I hate to say something that you could hear any amateur Christian apologist say, but the New Testament clumsily retcons  the violence out. Jesus often changes the subject when asked about putting people to death, and in some cases outright condemns the practice. And so you can have a Christian fundamentalist who is functionally a pacifist, and that person can base their pacifism on the Bible. The same is not true of Islam. Muhammad, unlike Jesus and Moses, is uncontroversially acknowledged to have existed, and to have been a brutal warlord as described by the Quran. For a peaceful person who identifies as a Muslim to claim they are emulating Muhammad, they must willfully distort history.

And yet there are lots of Muslims who go on about how they base their pacifism in the Quran. You can argue that such is a biased interpretation of the text, but the point is moot. Muslims are not constrained to interpret the Quran the way you do, including on war. Like the Bible, the Quran manages to support any number of contradictory interpretations, including violent and pacifist.

 That you see more Muslims choosing violent interpretations than Christians has almost certainly very little to do with the text and more with other factors, cultural or economical or sociological or fucking biological for all I know*.


*I've seen people argue that Muslims countries tend to have certain nutritional deficiencies, I don't recall the exact argument now and I don't put much credence into it, but it's interesting anyway.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2015, 11:03:22 pm »
ISIS: We are responsible for two idiots getting themselves shot dead in the craziest fucking state in the USA.
Florida disagrees.

Florida and Texas have had long disagreements over who, exactly, is the craziest state in the USA.

Its never really been resolved.
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Offline lord gibbon

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2015, 11:40:23 pm »
the correct answer is Alabama.
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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2015, 07:17:10 am »

Offline Nemo

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2015, 10:00:32 am »
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Actually there is some disagreement both over whether Muhammed existed and what we can know about him.
I'll have to take a look at that. Thank you.

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But if for a moment you accept that the 4 biographies of Muhammed written 200 years after his death are an accurate description of him, then you should also accept that Muhammed chose peace rather than war at almost every opportunity.
Well someone hasn't read the Quran.

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If you accept we can know anything about Muhammed, then you accept that apart from being a religious leader he was also a political leader.
If you've been reading my posts about Islam, you'd know that I know that already. I've talked in the past about how things might be different had Muhammad not gotten an army, and about how he, unlike Jesus if such a person existed, had a nation state in which to make and enforce laws. I know that Muhammad was a political leader. And that's the problem....

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The comment about retconning the violent parts of the bible simply ignores the comments where Jesus says he comes not to change the law (that not what jot or tittle of the law would be changed).
And Paul says the Mosaic law no longer counts. And Jesus himself awkwardly changed the subject whenever killing in the name of the law was brought up, assuming he doesn't outright condemn it. Now, as an unbeliever, I can easily see the contradiction there, but for believers, they see only Jesus telling them not to kill for religion.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2015, 06:27:24 pm »
Look dickhead. I have read the Quran. I have also read biographies of Muhammed and critical works about the historicity of Muhammed. I have read Hadith. I have read the Pentateuch.  I have read the prophets, kings and chronicles. I have read most of the new testament. As for reading the Koran and knowing what Muhammed did because of that, I assume you are basing that mostly on the commentary rather than the actual words of the Quran.  There is nothing in the Quran that is worse than what is in the pentateuch.  Yet you don't make these allegations about Jews. Why is that cracker?

Without being dismissive (as you were) I suspect you aren't nearly as knowledgeable about Islam as you pretend to be. Largely this is because the Quran is the recitation and while it may reflect aspects of Muhammed and what he was doing at the time (see if you can figure out what that was without relying on the commentary) it isn't a record of his sayings and actions. That would be the Sunnah and Hadith which are the collected works which are verified by ifstahads( Not sure if I spelt that correctly) which were chains of derivation. However their reliability is seriously fucking questionable.

However a good summary of the biographies and hadith can be found in Karen Armstrong's biography of Muhammed. I would recommend it to you Nemo as it might make some impact on your understanding of Islam. Although I seriously doubt it. It will also give credence to the fact that Muhammed was in fact very dovish for a political leader. Particularly a political leader in a tribal warzone.

The point about him being a political leader is that all political leaders need at times to weigh up morality with expediency as well as making difficult decisions with conflicting communal interests. We should also remember that until very recently conquest and expansion was viewed as a good rather than a bad thing. That is why Alexander the Great (who was -or his legend at least- very influential on the religions of the Mediterranean, including Islam), Julius Caesar, Henry the Vth, Elizabeth the first among many many others are still revered and thought of as good kings, leaders etc. As for violence Muhammed probably chose violence less that Winston Churchill or Bill Clinton and you condemn him as a hawkish political leader. Besides which the islamic ummah during the life of Muhammed was probably at war less than the US has been since the Civil War.

But go on dickhead.

Edit: Oh and I'm not going to bother pointing out the violent parts of the teachings of Jesus, you obviously havent read the bible. But irrespective of which we have had 1500 odd years or more killing for christianity, whether or not jesus was a pacifist or not (which if he existed is open to debate) by Christians believing they were doing the work of god. So it really doesn't seem to me that the founders character has any great influence on whether the religion will be peaceful or not. One of the clearest things Jesus said was to dispossess yourself of all property. Yet Christians have been getting around that for as long as there's been Christians. Finally the episode of 'whoever is without sin may cast the first stone' is almost certainly a later addition to the gospels.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 07:08:20 pm by davedan »

Offline Barbarella

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2015, 06:39:52 pm »
Look dickhead. I have read the Quran. I have also read biographies of Muhammed and critical works about the historicity of Muhammed. I have read Hadith. I have read the Pentateuch.  I have read the prophets, kings and chronicles. I have read most of the new testament. As for reading the Koran and knowing what Muhammed did because of that, I assume you are basing that mostly on the commentary rather than the actual words of the Quran.  There is nothing in the Quran that is worse than what is in the pentateuch.  Yet you don't make these allegations about Jews. Why is that cracker?

Without being dismissive (as you were) I suspect you aren't nearly as knowledgeable about Islam as you pretend to be. Largely this is because the Quran is the recitation and while it may reflect aspects of Muhammed and what he was doing at the time (see if you can figure out what that was without relying on the commentary) it isn't a record of his sayings and actions. That would be the Sunnah and Hadith which are the collected works which are verified by ifstahads( Not sure if I spelt that correctly) which were chains of derivation. However their reliability is seriously fucking questionable.

However a good summary of the biographies and hadith can be found in Karen Armstrong's biography of Muhammed. I would recommend it to you Nemo as it might make some impact on your understanding of Islam. Although I seriously doubt it. It will also give credence to the fact that Muhammed was in fact very dovish for a political leader. Particularly a political leader in a tribal warzone.

The point about him being a political leader is that all political leaders need at times to weigh up morality with expediency as well as making difficult decisions with conflicting communal interests. We should also remember that until very recently conquest and expansion was viewed as a good rather than a bad thing. That is why Alexander the Great (who was -or his legend at least- very influential on the religions of the Mediterranean, including Islam), Julius Caesar, Henry the Vth, Elizabeth the first among many many others are still revered and thought of as good kings, leaders etc. As for violence Muhammed probably chose violence less that Winston Churchill or Bill Clinton and you condemn him as a hawkish political leader. Besides which the islamic ummah during the life of Muhammed was probably at war less than the US has been since the Civil War.

But go on dickhead.


You made a good point. There's good and bad in everything. I think we Westerners need to be educated on what Islam really is and not some scary misinterpretation of it. I would love to know but I don't know where to look for answers. I wish there was a site that explained everything, answered questions. Explained & debunked misconceptions and so on. Islam is a very diverse faith with many diverse interpretations. The fact that there are are peaceful groups like Sufis shows than Islam can be interpreted as a more peaceful religion. It's all very confusing.

As for me, I'm dumping all that religious confusion and live as a NeoPagan.

Offline davedan

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2015, 07:15:20 pm »
My leather clad space nymphette, I would suggest for you Karen Armstrong's biography of Muhammed. You would also probably enjoy her History of God. Tom Holland's book 'Under the Shadow of the Sword'  is (like all his other stuff) great.

I wasn't really suggesting that there is good and bad in everything but your second point that we should not be scared of a scary misinterpretation of Islam is the point I was trying to make. I also think we should be taking each of the Abrahamic faiths as something which can transcend violence (even though all 3 are violent) it serves no purpose to unnecessarily demonise any of them.

As for ending confusion by being a NeoPagan, well that seems to me to be a symptom of confusion rather than a cure. But whatever helps with the existential angst that there is no god, no plan, no purpose and no great parent in the sky making sure we are all good. Once we are past that angst we must realise that all of us, must strive to make this life and this world the best that it can be, for the benefit of all.

Offline rookie

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2015, 08:17:59 pm »
Barb, it almost seems silly, but start with the Koran. At least that'll give you a platform to start with. It might also be helpful to think in terms of tribal rather than schism.
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2015, 12:02:37 am »
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Yet you don't make these allegations about Jews. Why is that cracker?
Ignoring the random assumption as to my racial identity (which is completely irrelevant, by the way), you're right. I should take all of the incidents of gays being dropped off of buildings in the name of YHWH and tie them to Judaism..... oh darn, there aren't any. Well, maybe all the incidents of cartoonists being slaughtered for hurting some Jewish person's feelings..... no. Hmmmm, maybe Jewish majority countries where non Jewish citizens are denied their rights...... no, no, Israel doesn't work, they give Muslims more rights than the Muslims give themselves....... I'll get back to you on this one.

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.....aspects of Muhammed and what he was doing at the time (see if you can figure out what that was without relying on the commentary).....
In the modern world, we call it mass murder and terrorism.

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.......Karen Armstrong.......
Wait, is this that lady who wrote A History of God, an otherwise excellent book by the way, and started gushing about Islam?

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We should also remember that until very recently conquest and expansion was viewed as a good rather than a bad thing.
One thing that Muhammad has that the other leaders you listed do not is a cult of personality and an entire religion devoted to continuing his actions.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2015, 12:29:44 am »
You think I care about your race because I call you a cracker? I call everyone a cracker you fucking cracker. If you told me you ethnicity I would still call you cracker. When I call you a dickhead that's when I'm insulting you. Dickhead.

Your entire premise you immature dickhead is that because of Muhammed, Islam must be violent. Well fundamentalist jews consider that the pentateuch (or Torah/ I don't use Torah because I don't read hebrew) were the words of Moses himself. They believe intrinsically in Moses and that he was a genocidal maniac who murdered many of his own people and issued an edict to wipe out Amelek. (nowhere in the Quran does Muhammed say that the jews must be sought and destroyed or that God would not abide any of them) Yet you accept that judaism can be religion of peace. Yet you are so fucking stupid that you don't see the inherent contradiction in your point. When it is pointed out you ignore it.

Nor do I accept for a moment that you have read 'the History of God' because otherwise you would well understand that Islam can be a peaceful religion and was essential for the theology that allowed judaism to become a peaceful religion.

Actually both Alexander and Julius Caesar had personality cults. To call Islam a personality cult is incredibly demeaning. Particularly so when Islam is not devoted to Muhammed but to god. "There is no God but God." Whereas Christianity could easily be a personality cult of Jesus if anyone actually cared to emulate him (apart from the odd lunatic and St Francis of Assisi). Alexander actually believed that he was divine and Julius Caesar played up that he was descended from Venus, whether he really believed it or not.

As for the Modern World - we would call Caesar a genocidal maniac (he killed one million people in europe), let alone what you would call the British invading India and Africa, Napoleon, the conquistiadors in America, the American settlers and their treatment of the Natives, the doctrine of Terra nullius in Australia. It's patently facile to compare the modern world with the past.

Apart from which stop selectively quoting part of what I said and eliding the rest.  It is both annoying and question dodging.

Finally I doubt any sought of reasoned debate will alter your anti-islamic feeling which is suspiciously similar to other anti-religious feelings, which all decry the religion of choice as being incapable of peace or honesty.

Edit: But please continue to be scared about something that doesn't exist in the way that you fear it and continue grouping 1 billion people around the world with small groups of extremists. It doesnt make you a fuckwit at all.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:35:40 am by davedan »

Offline Nemo

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2015, 01:29:11 am »
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Your entire premise you immature dickhead is that because of Muhammed, Islam must be violent. Well fundamentalist jews consider that the pentateuch (or Torah/ I don't use Torah because I don't read hebrew) were the words of Moses himself. They believe intrinsically in Moses and that he was a genocidal maniac who murdered many of his own people and issued an edict to wipe out Amelek.
Well, since name calling is now welcomed in this, let me ask you, dhimmi, why do you always direct the conversation to Christianity or Judaism? Look at my comments on FSTDT. I am more than happy to respond to the stuff by Christian fundamentalists by attacking them and their faith and their Bible without feeling the need to deflect criticism by calling attention to Islam. But if I ever attack Islam...... well, the dhimmis like you should know.

Yeah, Moses was a monster if he existed. Now do tell me all about the thousands of deaths at the hands of Jewish fundamentalists in the modern world.

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(nowhere in the Quran does Muhammed say that the jews must be sought and destroyed or that God would not abide any of them)
My second comment on this thread referenced a well known verse from the Quran about how Muslims should treat Jews.

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Yet you accept that judaism can be religion of peace. Yet you are so fucking stupid that you don't see the inherent contradiction in your point. When it is pointed out you ignore it.
Judaism is peaceful in the modern world because the Jewish people don't follow their holy books. Yes, I said that. And Islam can be peaceful too, as long as Muslims don't follow their holy book, and don't try to emulate Muhammad. Does me saying this shock you? It does not contradict a single thing that I have ever said.

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Nor do I accept for a moment that you have read 'the History of God' because otherwise you would well understand that Islam can be a peaceful religion and was essential for the theology that allowed judaism to become a peaceful religion.
It's been a few years, I'll admit, but your entire rationale seems to be me rolling my eyes at Armstrong gushing at how compassionate and enlightened Islam is. Sad thing is, at the time I believed it. The good news is that if I could change my views, there's hope for anyone.

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Actually both Alexander and Julius Caesar had personality cults.
Had. If people in the modern world still bought into that, you'd better believe I'd be concerned.

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To call Islam a personality cult is incredibly demeaning. Particularly so when Islam is not devoted to Muhammed but to god. "There is no God but God."
God will tell me, and I will tell you. Such notions make the human prophets indistinguishable from the gods they claim to speak for. That is true regardless of what the man's name is.

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Whereas Christianity could easily be a personality cult of Jesus if anyone actually cared to emulate him (apart from the odd lunatic and St Francis of Assisi).
I have no objection to this, and never have.

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Alexander actually believed that he was divine and Julius Caesar played up that he was descended from Venus, whether he really believed it or not.
See what I said about them above.

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As for the Modern World - we would call Caesar a genocidal maniac (he killed one million people in europe), let alone what you would call the British invading India and Africa, Napoleon, the conquistiadors in America, the American settlers and their treatment of the Natives, the doctrine of Terra nullius in Australia.
Yes.

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It's patently facile to compare the modern world with the past.
Literally every history person I've spoken to, on both sides of the political spectrum, acknowledges that Andrew Jackson was, simply put, a monster. But if there were people who wanted to promote him today as the ideal man, and continue his "policies", I would oppose that. If people want to promote the values of the past, those values will be compared with those of the modern world.

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Apart from which stop selectively quoting part of what I said and eliding the rest.  It is both annoying and question dodging.
I didn't quote the first paragraph of your comment.  8) In all seriousness, would you like future responses to just include one big quote? Or even just start a new comment since repeated quoting can be an eyesore?

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Finally I doubt any sought of reasoned debate will alter your anti-islamic feeling which is suspiciously similar to other anti-religious feelings, which all decry the religion of choice as being incapable of peace or honesty.
If you're bringing up the Antisemites, the people who are fearful of a minority religion that holds almost no political power outside of a single tiny country with a body count of almost nothing within the past few centuries, do tell me where the similarities are.

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But please continue to be scared about something that doesn't exist in the way that you fear it and continue grouping 1 billion people around the world with small groups of extremists.
Tens of thousands of people rallied in Chechnya against Charlie Hebdo in response to the infamous shooting. That was just one protest, and there were others. These extremist groups don't include every single person who identifies as Muslim, but they most certainly are not small.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2015, 12:23:24 pm »
My leather clad space nymphette, I would suggest for you Karen Armstrong's biography of Muhammed. You would also probably enjoy her History of God. Tom Holland's book 'Under the Shadow of the Sword'  is (like all his other stuff) great.

I wasn't really suggesting that there is good and bad in everything but your second point that we should not be scared of a scary misinterpretation of Islam is the point I was trying to make. I also think we should be taking each of the Abrahamic faiths as something which can transcend violence (even though all 3 are violent) it serves no purpose to unnecessarily demonise any of them.

As for ending confusion by being a NeoPagan, well that seems to me to be a symptom of confusion rather than a cure. But whatever helps with the existential angst that there is no god, no plan, no purpose and no great parent in the sky making sure we are all good. Once we are past that angst we must realise that all of us, must strive to make this life and this world the best that it can be, for the benefit of all.


Well, I believe in a higher power but I just don't see it as LITERAL super-people floating around out there (deities are archetypes). I believe in a spiritual plane and an afterlife and see the Divine and creation as one and the same. I'm a spiritual Pantheist.

As for my belief in Hell/Inferno, well, it's not exclusively an Abrahamic concept. A lot of spiritual traditions have some sort of "bad afterlife" for bad people. It's universal, be it Hell, Tatarus, Naraka, etc.

Offline Askold

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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Cartoon Contest
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2015, 01:34:47 pm »
Davedan, stop being a dick.

You made the cracker comment in the same sentence where you insinuated that Nemo is a racist so assuming that you consider Nemo's race to be relevant to the racism accusation is not some wild asspull, it really does seem to be your implication.

If you want a reasonable debate, make reasonable arguments. If you throw insults and and defend yourself by claiming that you were joking then you can't really expect others to take you seriously.
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