Author Topic: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these  (Read 23578 times)

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Offline Kristine

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2012, 02:12:35 am »
1. She's a feminist doing stupid stuff to make feminists want to disassociate from her and use more facts and talk about things that matter.
How is this stupid?  'Not important' I'll give you, but stupid?  Why is this anymore stupid than anything else someone wants to post on line.

2. She's secretly an MRA who is making fun of feminists and how they find sexism when it isn't there. Like Steven Colbert and Edward Current. Except feminist. And not saying it to her audience.
So you think this is a satire of feminism? - Okay, I'll bite what do real feminists do?

3. She's amassing an audience of idiots with her videos that have little research and fact, but tells them what they want to hear, and then actually saying things that actually matter so the stupid people that watch her videos will be less dumb.
Soooo just to sum up - 1) I'm an idiot for watching and liking the series.  Check.  2)She is lying about what she considers Tropes and stereotypes. O.K. then.  3)she saves a small piece of information, that 'matters',  for the very end of the vid for the sole purpose of making sure her audience learns something (but the rest of it is just crap and they will still be stupid after learning it anyway).  Right.


Offline TheL

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2012, 09:17:31 am »
It looks to me, personally, like the only real inaccuracies in her videos are places where she Did Not Do The Research as well as she ought--for example, if your only experience of the PPG Femme Fatale episode is a clip from YouTube showcasing the straw feminism, you're not going to know that the episode actually did things right.

Honestly, I'm enjoying the videos, and I do believe her errors are out of ignorance.  She probably doesn't have time to watch all of the shows in question in enough detail to see how other episodes address the issues in question.  (Granted, she should remove episodes of shows she doesn't watch, or update her videos in response to correction, but I'm willing to cut her a bit of slack on these earlier videos because she didn't have the tons of money for research that the Kickstarter campaign gave her.)

She also points out that failing the Bechdel Test doesn't automatically make a movie or TV episode bad--but that for as many movies to fail the Bechdel Test as we see happening is a sign of a real problem in how people (especially women) are portrayed in the media.  (Nor does failing the Reverse Bechdel Test--My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic is a damn good cartoon, but episodes that pass the RBT are rare.)
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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2012, 03:13:32 pm »
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How is this stupid?  'Not important' I'll give you, but stupid?  Why is this anymore stupid than anything else someone wants to post on line.

When you're an advocate for social justice, your content should be better than Annoying Orange.

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So you think this is a satire of feminism? - Okay, I'll bite what do real feminists do?

Certainly not complain that a song is sexist because a man says he's buying a doll for his daughters, that's what. I suppose talking about slut shaming is the primary issue. Also analyzing the choices women make for themselves instead of just saying businesses are bad.

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Sooo just to sum up - 1) I'm an idiot for watching and liking the series.  Check.  2)She is lying about what she considers Tropes and stereotypes. O.K. then.  3)she saves a small piece of information, that 'matters',  for the very end of the vid for the sole purpose of making sure her audience learns something (but the rest of it is just crap and they will still be stupid after learning it anyway).  Right.

I didn't say that everyone. And given the fact that you view this as entertainment and not serious dialog, yeah I can safely say you're not an idiot.

Nearly everything stupid she says is already believed by the target audience, and this is just confirmation bias they would have gotten from another source.

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but that for as many movies to fail the Bechdel Test as we see happening is a sign of a real problem in how people (especially women) are portrayed in the media.

Meh.

1. If the show had an equal number of strong male and female characters, or even a sizable number of male characters, it's highly probably that two female characters will talk about them, or will engage in a conversation with one of them.

2. Most important people in history were men. While this was unfair due to the circumstantial, you can't really change the past.

Overall, I think passing the RBT is a worse indicator than failing the Bechdel test. Saying the Bechdel test is useful sounds kind of separatist.
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2012, 04:38:41 pm »
I don't think Sarkeesian's critiques are bad at all.  By comparison this is bad.  Thing is if you look at just about any piece of work for anti-feminist points you will most likely find it.

Sarkeesian's biggest failing is the same that many individuals has when commenting on multiply shows and movies in that they fail to truly understand each.  Simply looking at one episode in a series or looking at how Hollywood is doing based on a single test often misses the larger picture.

I'm not saying that media (movies, TV, and games) do not need to improve their depiction of women as a whole. Measuring all of them without picking out examples that would never pass that test, such as period peaces, will always skew your results.   
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. ~Macbeth

Offline JohnE

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2012, 04:52:49 pm »
@ Lexi: The Bechdel test doesn't say that the female characters can't talk to men or about men. It says they can't talk ONLY about men. If the female characters in a story talk about men AND otjer topics, it passes the test.

Offline Cataclysm

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2012, 08:47:25 pm »
The women can talk about men, but there HAS to be a scene when two women don't. If they talk about men and other objects, it fails, unless they just talk about objects.
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Offline davedan

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2012, 10:47:31 pm »
What is the reverse Bechdel test?

And she listed shrek as a film that didn't pass but I thought Fiona and the Queen spoke about things that didn't include men.

Offline Cataclysm

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2012, 10:53:38 pm »
What is the reverse Bechdel test?

Two men talk about something other than women.

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And she listed shrek as a film that didn't pass but I thought Fiona and the Queen spoke about things that didn't include men.

One mention of King, Shrek, Arthur, or Charming means it fails.

Oh, and boys count as men too in this test. At least according to her.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 10:55:43 pm by Lexikon »
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2012, 11:40:25 pm »
The women can talk about men, but there HAS to be a scene when two women don't. If they talk about men and other objects, it fails, unless they just talk about objects.

I disagree.  Mentioning male characters in conversation in which said male characters are not the main focus would pass.  It's hard to think of a scene in any movie where any two characters do not talk about another character.

Take this from Firefly.  Zoe and Kaylee talk about Book, Mal, and the fact that they left Simon and River on the planet.  Yes, they are talking about male character, but the fact that they those characters are male really does not matter to the scene.  They are talking about them simply as other members of the crew.

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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2012, 12:58:38 am »
Take it to Sarkeesian.
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.

Offline Kristine

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2012, 03:15:18 am »
When you're an advocate for social justice, your content should be better than Annoying Orange.
When the social injustices your fighting against are underneath layer after layer of 'acceptable' behavior - sometimes you have to bring in examples where people don't see anything wrong until you point them out.  If you woke up tomorrow and found all the men in comics being portrayed like this... 

- chances are - you would throw a fit, but like boiling a frog slowly VS throwing a frog in boiling water - sexism has built up to this over soo long a time that pointing it out, now looks extreme - like the frog who jumps away.

Certainly not complain that a song is sexist because a man says he's buying a doll for his daughters, that's what. I suppose talking about slut shaming is the primary issue. Also analyzing the choices women make for themselves instead of just saying businesses are bad.
but that is kinda the point - that some women are making decisions based on the stereo types businesses are pushing - I'm going to bet that Anorexia wasn't nearly the problem in the middle ages as it is today...

let's see....today's idea of 'beauty':
VS - now which of these is more attainable by a majority of women I wonder? ::)


Nearly everything stupid she says is already believed by the target audience, and this is just confirmation bias they would have gotten from another source.
What specifically does she say that is stupid? please give a direct quote.


Offline largeham

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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2012, 03:00:09 pm »
When you're an advocate for social justice, your content should be better than Annoying Orange.
When the social injustices your fighting against are underneath layer after layer of 'acceptable' behavior - sometimes you have to bring in examples where people don't see anything wrong until you point them out.  If you woke up tomorrow and found all the men in comics being portrayed like this... 

- chances are - you would throw a fit, but like boiling a frog slowly VS throwing a frog in boiling water - sexism has built up to this over soo long a time that pointing it out, now looks extreme - like the frog who jumps away.

You mean like how people throw a fit out abut these guys?





Actually, considering how form-fitting the superhero's tights are, they might as well not be wearing them. Except Batman.

Which is a moot point, since Anita doesn't talk much about this anyways.

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Certainly not complain that a song is sexist because a man says he's buying a doll for his daughters, that's what. I suppose talking about slut shaming is the primary issue. Also analyzing the choices women make for themselves instead of just saying businesses are bad.
but that is kinda the point - that some women are making decisions based on the stereo types businesses are pushing - I'm going to bet that Anorexia wasn't nearly the problem in the middle ages as it is today...

Very nice. Now let's hear Anita talk about anorexia, and all those other issues.

In the middle ages people had to worry about life. Any wrong move could get them killed.

Nearly everything stupid she says is already believed by the target audience, and this is just confirmation bias they would have gotten from another source.
What specifically does she say that is stupid? please give a direct quote.
[/quote]

A lot of the things on the TV Tropes page, the entire Christmas song video, some parts in the lego video where she says to ditch the more realistic looking minifigs, just because she didn't like the set they were in. It's been a while since I saw her earlier videos.

This wasn't very smart to say.

"A lot of the pregnancy storylines are because the actor got pregnant but I hardly accept that as an excuse for such invasive, violating and cliche story arcs"

If you want a good analysis on gender & advertising, here watch this.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o9AYI79bb4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o9AYI79bb4</a>
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.

Offline TheL

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2012, 05:55:53 pm »
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but that for as many movies to fail the Bechdel Test as we see happening is a sign of a real problem in how people (especially women) are portrayed in the media.

Meh.

1. If the show had an equal number of strong male and female characters, or even a sizable number of male characters, it's highly probably that two female characters will talk about them, or will engage in a conversation with one of them.

2. Most important people in history were men. While this was unfair due to the circumstantial, you can't really change the past.

Overall, I think passing the RBT is a worse indicator than failing the Bechdel test. Saying the Bechdel test is useful sounds kind of separatist.

1.  The Bechdel Test doesn't say women are NEVER allowed to talk about men.  It just says that at least one conversation has to be about something else.  There is a difference.

2. But how does this change the fact that there are entire movies in which women never discuss ANYTHING other than a male character, or men in general?  Even Lucille Ball talked about things other than men with Ethel, on a show that portrayed the ideal woman as a stay-at-home housewife.  She talked about Ricky too, but that doesn't keep I Love Lucy from passing the Bechdel Test.

3. There is nothing separatist about the Bechdel Test or the RBT.  It simply acknowledges that both men and women have wants, dreams, and desires beyond dating and sex.

Again:  Women can talk to each other about men a whole lot during a movie and still pass the Bechdel Test; the requirement is that they also talk about something else, even if it's in the same conversation, for a noticeable amount of time.

Reverse Bechdel Test:  Men must, at some point, talk to each other about something other than women.  Again, they're allowed to talk about women, they just have to also talk about something else.

In re: comic books, the problem isn't that women are wearing "sexy" or revealing clothing.  Not at all.  The problem is that, in addition to this, female superheroes are drawn in unnatural poses and with physically impossible waistlines.  Meanwhile male superheroes are drawn in reasonable fighting poses, and actually have a variety of body types.   The "boobs and butt" pose (both breasts AND both asscheeks turned toward the viewer) is only possible for me because I have mild scoliosis, and it hurts.  Yet superheroines are CONSTANTLY drawn in the boobs-and-butt pose.  (Case in point.)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 07:41:26 pm by TheL »
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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: OMG - Tropes vs. Women - I love these
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2012, 07:41:54 pm »
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2. But how does this change the fact that there are entire movies in which women never discuss ANYTHING other than a male character, or men in general?  Even Lucille Ball talked about things other than men with Ethel, on a show that portrayed the ideal woman as a stay-at-home housewife.  She talked about Ricky too, but that doesn't keep I Love Lucy from passing the Bechdel Test.

And what did they talk about besides men? Housework and shopping?

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3. There is nothing separatist about the Bechdel Test or the RBT.  It simply acknowledges that both men and women have wants, dreams, and desires beyond dating and sex.

You can't mention:

Your father
Your brothers
Any male supporting characters
Any male friends
Any male politicians
Any male antagonists
Any male mentors
Any male children
Any male historical figures


What does this have to do with sex and dating?
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Again:  Women can talk to each other about men a whole lot during a movie and still pass the Bechdel Test; the requirement is that they also talk about something else, even if it's in the same conversation, for a noticeable amount of time.

Yeah, and it's not easy to talk about history, technology, entertainment, the plot, personal lives, nearly anything, without bringing up men.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 07:45:24 pm by Lexikon »
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.