Author Topic: Ethics of Dog Breeding  (Read 4242 times)

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Offline Feral Dog

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Ethics of Dog Breeding
« on: May 10, 2013, 02:43:03 am »
So there's a number of breeds that have diseases and disorders directly related to their breed standard (literally everything wrong with the English Bulldog, for instance, is a result of its body shape and/or inbreeding). Before anyone says, "No, it's all BYB and puppy mills breeding these unhealthy animals!" Take a look at some of the show specimens. Oyy. And the show world has only recently made token changes to a few breeds after years (decades, even) of pressure.

I will point out most of my family's dogs were/are purebreds, and I certainly don't see anything wrong with having dog breeds.

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Offline Sylvana

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 04:56:03 am »
This is an interesting topic.
I am a huge dog fan. Dogs are basically the most awesome animal in the universe. As such I own two dogs of my own, they are two Chow Chows. The problem is that Chow Chows have a tendency towards certain conditions. The thing is, not all of them end up getting those conditions.

I prefer pure breed dogs, if only because you know what you are getting with regards to temperament and needs. So I do support keeping the breeds pure, but if a breed always has a health condition I am for scrapping it. I don't care about show breeds or anything like that. To me, my dogs are a part of my family, not something to parade around, and we can do without dog shows completely. (With the exception of perhaps the agility competitions, the dogs themselves enjoy the activity and the playing.)

I don't know if I added anything of meaning to this topic, but for now tho0se are my feelings.

Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 07:01:33 am »
I'm just going to leave this here
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 11:00:57 am »
Hybrid vigor is a good thing. I actually wish most all pure breeds would just blend on out, and let dogs be dogs, just like we don't intentionally "breed" strains of humans. My reasoning is this; there are too many genetic manipulations in pure breeds that are harmful to the dogs' life span and health, physical comfort and mobility. That, to me, is innately cruel to the dogs, and is a human whimsy and vanity being over-indulged in. When I see a Great Dane, I love them, but I always feel sad for them - that dog will most likely live a very short life. My late dog was a border collie/English bullterrier mix - two very different gene pools. She lucked out and got all the best from both parents, and lived an active healthy life up until her last year, when arthritis and extreme old age related conditions caught up with her. She was 17 years and four months old on the day she was euthanized, because she had developed pancreatitis and could no longer hold down any food. Here she is, days before euthanasia:


One of my current dogs is also lucky - she got the best of Australian Cattle Dog (Hall's Blue Heeler) and....wait for it...Papillion ;D ! It will be reasonable to expect this 16 lb dog to live to see 18+, considering her gene pools' longevity traits. (she just turned 2 yrs old):
(click to show/hide)


To me, the only things worth selectively breeding for is health and longevity, and size. In my ideal scenario, dogs would range in weight from 12 lbs to 100 lbs, with a minimum expected life span of 15 good quality years of life. Having to grieve for the loss of six wonderful furry kids over the past 30 years of keeping a multi dog household, I would be just fine with gene therapy that expanded dog life spans as much as reasonably possible, always with high quality of life being sought, foremost.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 11:05:56 am by mellenORL »
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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 04:45:46 pm »
While I have a soft spot for certain breeds, there's much to be said for hybrid vigor. A friend of the family has owned multiple rottweilers. All of them had hip issues. She's put more into surgery for her Maggie rott then most people spend on a car.

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 05:39:43 pm »
I own a husky. She has sectoral heterochromia. As you can see here:
(click to show/hide)

Huskies as a breed don't have the same problems other dogs in its class and size do such as the hip dysplasia found in many breeds. They mostly have eye issues and seizures, tho, which in a way can be worse. Seriously, a seizing dog is harder to help than a seizing human.

Because I am not intending on sledding with her (we live in GA which can arguably can be considered cruel to the thick furred breed), she doesn't have to worry about things that ail sled dogs of her breed.

A lot of people love dogs with certain types of eyes which means you breed for that and that's not good cause of blindness. Caring for a blind dog is insanely hard.

For me, I like certain breeds. But I also think mutts are great to have because they are generally healthier and have fair temperaments. Not all the time, but sometimes.

There should be some way of regulating.

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Offline Søren

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 06:12:11 pm »
My family breeds french bulldogs, and naturally these dogs tend to have some soft palate issues which cause breathing issues, but this can be fixed with minor surgery. They also have massive problems in temperature regulation, but we have a little kiddie pool outside always filled with water, and they just jump in and wads around if theyre too hot, they love that little pool
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Offline ThunderWulf

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 07:04:04 pm »
As an avid animal lover and as someone who works with animals, this is my view:

Only purebred dog I ever had was our collie, who had "collie eye syndrome" which is basically tunnel vision with poor eyesight in the front.  She's pretty much like a third blind.  Almost every purebred I've known has had breathing problems, or eye problems, or hip problems, etc.  It's not breeding persay that's the problem, but that we've OVERBRED dogs to the point where it's basically inbreeding.

All the breeding for very specific desired traits has allowed the bad ones to flourish as well.  It's the same thing as if you bred your cousin, then your kid bred with their cousin, then their kid, and so on. Eventually do to the lack of diversity, mutations and other problems will become more common.

This is exactly why mutts are my favorite breed.  Because they have more genetic diversity, they often live longer, have less problems, are less prone to chronic conditions like hip displaysia, etc.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 09:01:49 pm »
I'm okay with purebred dogs as long as it's done ethically. For instance, a dog breeder shouldn't cause incest, breed dogs with known genetic diseases, or kill otherwise healthy puppies just because they don't have a desirable trait (i.e, Rhodesian ridgebacks without a ridge).

My dog is a mutt (we think border collie and pointer) and we love him :)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 05:22:02 pm by Eva-Beatrice »
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Offline Feral Dog

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 03:49:15 am »
Almost every purebred I've known has had breathing problems, or eye problems, or hip problems, etc.

I've had a slightly different experience- most purebreds are pretty healthy, like other dogs, provided the breed's physical shape is not the source of their troubles (your average lab or JRT is likely to be fine, but your average Pekingese or Irish Wolfhound?)... but all of the medical basket-cases have been purebreds.

Quote

It's not breeding persay that's the problem, but that we've OVERBRED dogs to the point where it's basically inbreeding.

All the breeding for very specific desired traits has allowed the bad ones to flourish as well.  It's the same thing as if you bred your cousin, then your kid bred with their cousin, then their kid, and so on. Eventually do to the lack of diversity, mutations and other problems will become more common.

Focusing on an extremely narrow set of attributes can't have helped either. German Shepherds, Border Collies, and a few other breeds are both known for very different looking work/show/pet lines.

Quote
This is exactly why mutts are my favorite breed.  Because they have more genetic diversity, they often live longer, have less problems, are less prone to chronic conditions like hip displaysia, etc.

It's entirely possible for people who want a purebred dog to have their cake and eat it too. We do know that even one or two outcrosses can solve a lot of breed-specific issues, simply by bumping up the genetic diversity. There'd be a generation or two of dogs that are 'obvious' mixes, but once they've been bred back to the population the crossed dogs are indistinguishable from the rest of the breed, but just as healthy as a mutt. The problem? Nobody's willing to because then they wouldn't be 'pure'...

And I really do think that if a crippling deformity is called for in the breed standard, the standard needs to be changed.

Edit: Everyone else is posting pictures of their dogs, so here's an awkward angle of my pound-hound Kady (a Korean Jindo. Some guy dumped a whole big pack of them because he was moving back to Korea. She was adopted and returned five more times before I decided to take her.)
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 04:01:56 am by Feral Dog »
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 05:01:28 pm »
(snip)

(click to show/hide)

Beautiful snow wolf looking Kindo! Reminds me of the first dog I adopted back in the eighties, a Chow/German Shepherd mix. How is her hearing? So many all white dogs are prone to deafness. My late dog was hard-of-hearing, then stone deaf from 12 to 17, even though she was a mutt, and not all white.
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Offline Katsuro

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 01:46:31 am »
I think some cat and dog breeds have been banned in the UK as they are considered cruel due to their inherent severe medical problems.

Offline Feral Dog

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 05:04:57 am »
(snip)

(click to show/hide)

Beautiful snow wolf looking Kindo! Reminds me of the first dog I adopted back in the eighties, a Chow/German Shepherd mix. How is her hearing? So many all white dogs are prone to deafness. My late dog was hard-of-hearing, then stone deaf from 12 to 17, even though she was a mutt, and not all white.

Thanks! She's actually a cream color which, luckily, doesn't come with the hearing/vision problem of true white (cream is recessive red, white is usually extreme piebald). Her favorite game is "make the other dogs chase me and then run the other way when they're going too fast to slow down" (little stinker- and they fall for it every time).

17 is pretty old for a dog- you must really take good care of them. :)
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Offline chad sexington

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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 05:16:59 am »
we don't intentionally "breed" strains of humans.

Well, the aristocracy kind of did that... and look where that ended up :(


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Re: Ethics of Dog Breeding
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 11:23:37 am »
Longevity and eliminating age related diseases must be difficult traits to breed for given their nature since a dog will be well past it's breeding years (hopefully) before they become apparent. It could be a few generations removed by the time you know about it and you would need a lot of very detailed record keeping to even approach the problem. Even then, I'm not sure there is too much you could do about it unless A.I. is an option, but that is probably way beyond the ability of most breeders.