Author Topic: No God required  (Read 3813 times)

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Offline Star Cluster

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No God required
« on: July 10, 2012, 12:12:51 pm »
Although most won't just come out and say positely there is no god, it is almost unanimous amongst scientists that the universe did not need an intelligent entity to create it.  The laws of physics is quite enough, thank you.
The heavens convince me there is no god.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.

Offline SpaceProg

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Re: No God required
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 12:16:52 pm »
How did the laws come to be though?  What makes X do Y when Z happens?  What determines HOW it happens, and...   Well...  why does physics work the way it does, and how did IT come about?

I'm not playing an ID devil's advocate (Even though I do believe in ID somewhat).   I'm just wondering.  Sorry if my question is all wargarbly.

Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: No God required
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 03:19:52 pm »
How did the laws come to be though?  What makes X do Y when Z happens?  What determines HOW it happens, and...   Well...  why does physics work the way it does, and how did IT come about?

I'm not playing an ID devil's advocate (Even though I do believe in ID somewhat).   I'm just wondering.  Sorry if my question is all wargarbly.

That's exactly the stunt my youth pastor GM pulled.  "Who made gravity?" I believe was his response.
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Offline JohnE

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Re: No God required
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 04:17:21 pm »
It's a good question and one that scientists are looking into. The thing is, you can't just insert "god" and stop looking. (Well you could, but you'd never learn anything that way)

Offline TigerHunter

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Re: No God required
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 04:54:48 pm »
It's a good question and one that scientists are looking into. The thing is, you can't just insert "god" and stop looking. (Well you could, but you'd never learn anything that way)
Also, as was just pointed out in the book I'm reading, positing a god as an explanation for anything just raises more questions, namely where the heck did the god come from?

Offline Hades

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Re: No God required
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 04:59:02 pm »
The name of Satan's third solo album.
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Offline Old Viking

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Re: No God required
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 07:25:07 pm »
Physics is not a "thing" of some sort that had to be created.  It's an overall term that refers to explanations of the interactions between matter and energy.  As a body of knowledge the Laws of Physics were created by a guy named Sid Crump, working nights in his den.
I am an old man, and I've seen many problems, most of which never happened.

Offline Star Cluster

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Re: No God required
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 07:53:37 pm »
How did the laws come to be though?  What makes X do Y when Z happens?  What determines HOW it happens, and...   Well...  why does physics work the way it does, and how did IT come about?

I'm not playing an ID devil's advocate (Even though I do believe in ID somewhat).   I'm just wondering.  Sorry if my question is all wargarbly.
To my way of thinking, the laws of physics actually disprove a god or gods, and here's why.

The laws of physics are simply the way things happen naturally.  We, meaning mankind, has observed and written down these natural occurrences and noted that certain things happen the way they do consistently.  For instance, we know that the larger and more massive an object is, the greater its gravitational pull.  As an extension of this, we also know that as an object in space grows through accretion, it will become more round as its mass increases.  We are able to not only figure how other things work by using what we know about physics, but are able to predict there are things which we have not yet discovered.  Dark matter is one such thing.  Although we don't yet know exactly what dark matter is, we almost certainly know it exists because the laws of physics require it to exist as it makes up about 80% of the universe.  And it isn't by any stretch of the imagination the only thing that was predicted and later found to be true.

If a truly omnipotent god existed, the laws of physics would be unnecessary as it could make anything happen.  You actually could see flat, square parcels of land supported by whatever flavor of support your particular religion believes holds up the earth.  Or you could see square cubical planets instead of round.  God would not have to have installed the laws of physics as he could easily overcome them and make shit do whatever he wanted it to do. 

But the universe doesn't work that way.  For all the strange stuff out there, almost everything follows a certain physical pattern which is observable and repeatable.  The only exception that we know of at this time where the laws of physics break down is a black hole.  Once you get past the event horizon, all bets are off and it is thought that some pretty weird stuff goes on there.  After all, when gravity is so strong that not even light can escape, that's pretty much game over.

It is because the universe operates under such a set of physical laws that I see no need for or requirement that a god of any kind exists.  If you want to try convincing me of god, show me a cosmic object in the shape of a cube in a figure 8 orbit around twin donut shaped stars and you'll have my attention. 

« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 03:27:54 pm by Star Cluster »
The heavens convince me there is no god.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.

Offline Søren

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Re: No God required
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 08:18:17 pm »
A lot of this kind of thing can have a massive base on semantics and logical thought. I wouldnt delve into this argument of "what created the laws of physics" or "are the laws of physics innate". It's bit of a brain fuckfest
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Offline SpaceProg

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Re: No God required
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 09:16:32 pm »
What if the natural universe works the way it does because of a set of programmed...  Yeah... My brain's getting into a fuckfest, all right.  I believe in the the laws of physics, I just want to say that, before someone labels me as a purist ID-er.   I'm just not really sure how the way X reacts with Y for Z to happen originally came to be.  How did the universe settle upon this bundle of constants as its backbone for operating?  How did such order come from possible chaos?  Were the Laws of Physics around before the universe was?

I really shouldn't be asking all this.  I bet it's making me sound like a RR blowhard or something.

Offline Patches

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Re: No God required
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 10:18:40 pm »
What if the natural universe works the way it does because of a set of programmed...  Yeah... My brain's getting into a fuckfest, all right.  I believe in the the laws of physics, I just want to say that, before someone labels me as a purist ID-er.   I'm just not really sure how the way X reacts with Y for Z to happen originally came to be.  How did the universe settle upon this bundle of constants as its backbone for operating?  How did such order come from possible chaos?  Were the Laws of Physics around before the universe was?

I really shouldn't be asking all this.  I bet it's making me sound like a RR blowhard or something.

Asking questions doesn't make you an RR blowhard.  Asking questions is the hallmark of a curious mind.  It's just how you go about responding to them that determines what people think of you.

An honest person will look at those questions and say "I don't know yet, but I'll keep looking for the answers."

An RR blowhard will say, "I don't know, therefore it must have been god" and consider the case closed with no further thought on the matter needed.

Why is the universe in the state it's in?  Why are the universal constants at the values that they are?  We're not sure yet.  That's what all of our experimentation is for.  You can posit an intelligent force as a possible solution, but because there's no evidence for it, you can't declare that it certainly IS the solution until it's verified experimentally.  That's what the whole Higgs boson experiment was for.  The math predicted it existed; it was a hypothetical solution that made the equations work.  But no one had ever observed it before.  Which is why everyone was so eager to find experimental evidence for it.

That's mostly the problem with the firmly religious types.  It's fine to suggest that a god may be the solution to an unanswered question, but it's not fine to act as though positing a god being responsible somehow settles the question.  It's even less fine to posit a god being responsible for a question that's already been verifiably answered another way.

Basically:

RR Blowhard: "Our book says 2 + 2 = X"
Rational Person: "So X = 4."
RB: "Where are you getting that from?  The book clearly says that 2 + 2 = X.  Therefore X is the answer."
RP: "No, 'X' is just a placeholder value.  Something that you put in place of the answer until you figure out what the real answer is.  If you do the math, you can see that 2 + 2 = 4."
RB: "THE BOOK SAYS THAT IT EQUALS X!"

Offline Star Cluster

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Re: No God required
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 10:29:24 pm »
What if the natural universe works the way it does because of a set of programmed...  Yeah... My brain's getting into a fuckfest, all right.  I believe in the the laws of physics, I just want to say that, before someone labels me as a purist ID-er.   I'm just not really sure how the way X reacts with Y for Z to happen originally came to be.  How did the universe settle upon this bundle of constants as its backbone for operating?  How did such order come from possible chaos?  Were the Laws of Physics around before the universe was?

I really shouldn't be asking all this.  I bet it's making me sound like a RR blowhard or something.

No, not at all.  As Deimos (and you) said, it actually can be a pretty big mind-fuck.  But sometimes, we as humans try to make things seem harder than they really are.  I'm no physicist, and I certainly couldn't begin to understand the equations that physicists work with.  However, I do understand, or least think I do, that the term "Laws of Physics" is very much misunderstood.

We tend to think of laws as something that we are made to do, such as speed limits, laws against breaking and entering, etc.  We connect laws as something that can be broken and that the laws, no matter how much sense they make or how much they need to be followed, are still man-made constructs.  And as we've seen through-out history, some laws become obsolete or need to be changed due to changes in societal acceptance. 

The laws of physics, on the other hand, are simply our observations of how objects and forces do act in relation to themselves and each other.  A simple way to think of it is this:  why does mixing blue and yellow make green?  No matter how you mix it, those two base colors will always make some shade of green.  You will never get another color unless a third color is introduced.  So why do they produce green?  The simplest answer, while not scientific is, they just do.  Of course there is a scientific reason behind it, but when it is all boiled down, it gets back to the fact that blue and yellow has to make green.  It is an observation that has been proven and repeats itself every time it is attempted.  Painters and artists rely on it.  Did God make those two colors produce green?  Well, that's a possibility I suppose, but that possibility isn't necessary when viewed from the aspect of it being a naturally occurring phenomenon.  Unlike human laws (or even God's "laws", for that matter) that can be broken and changed, the "laws" of physics are inflexible and unchangeable, and as hard as some may try, have so far been unbreakable. 

You also asked if the laws of physics was around before the universe began.  Well, that's the real brain-fuck.  Cosmologists and physicists have theorized that it is possible that multiple universes exist concurrently, that the laws of physics could be different in each one, and that those physical laws were created at the moment each universe sprang into existence.  Just think about that one for a moment.

But as for this universe, no "decision" was made as to what the laws of physics would be.  The events occurred and objects interacted the way they did because physics were set shortly after the big bang during the early expansion of the universe.  As blue and yellow make green, X reacting with Y causing Z to happen simply has to be.  Their physical properties demand it.
The heavens convince me there is no god.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.

Offline SpaceProg

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Re: No God required
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 10:50:19 pm »
I see.  I do like thinking deep sometimes.  It's fun in small doses.  Then you start looking for numbers streaming down your field of vision.  Red Pill or Blue?
Hehe.

Good explanations, ya'll.  I understand a bit more from the answers to my questions.  I also understand some things just aren't answerable with any certainty. 
At least, not yet.
To know that you do not know is wise.  Hell, I must be the wisest person in the world, because there's a hell of a lot of stuff I don't know!  :p

Offline Rime

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Re: No God required
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2012, 07:12:54 am »
I'll play the Devil's Advocate here, but only for a reason.

So many fundies think that it has to be something out of ILM. 

First 24 hours:  BAM!  Make the earth and water and the universe!
Hour 25-48:  BAM!  "Create" Light and Darkness.  "Goodness!  I can't even IMAGINE how to do it so God has to be THAT awesome!"
Hour 48-72:  BAM! Create water table and make it look like God actually did it in some way that looks totally AWESOME, because HE'S GOD!!!"

No fundie would ever think that their God was intelligent enough to just pop the balloon in the right spot and have it unfold without having to do anything.  No, he's a fucking Hollywood special effects team because Science is the ENEMY!  Especially that God took some dirt and made the first man like Donatello.  He had to.  HE HAD TOOOOOOO!!!  MY ENTIRE SYSTEM OF BELIEF WOULD JUST SHATTER TO DUST OTHERWISE!!!

Of course, this is a fragile state that would actually require something called faith because it's outside of an easy black and white answer found in a book penned by nomads 6000 years ago to try to make sense of the world around them.

And when we're done soul searching,
And we carry the weight and die for a cause.
Is misery made beautiful
Right before our eyes.

Mercy be revealed, or blind us where we stand?

Offline SpaceProg

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Re: No God required
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2012, 08:05:21 am »
In all honesty, the whole ID taking millions and millions and millions of years bit is far more appealing.  Like a labor of love, the Universe.