Author Topic: Attack in Nice  (Read 8162 times)

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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2016, 12:41:36 am »
I actually don't see a problem with blaming Islam the ideology for the attacks. However I don't blame every Muslim or most Muslims for the attack just as I don't blame followers of the Russian Orthodox Church for war crimes in Checnya.

Blaming ideology of Islam would be the same as blaming the ideology of Christianity for the athrocities in Chechnya or the Westborough Baptist Church. Both Islam and Christianity hold so many conflicting ideologies within them which are constantly adapting to the political and social landscapes that generalizing is misleading. What people mean when they talk about "ideology of Islam" is their superficial interpretation of the multitude of cultures lumped together within the term of "Islam".

As I have said many times, religion is a significant part of the whole equation but still only a part. Simplifying Islam into a heterogenic ideology plays into the harmful and misleading narrative that is constantly built both consciously and unintentionally by different sides in the cultural conflict. I hold no fondness towards any religion myself but I dislike and find it harmful when people simplify multifaceted issues because they come from "the other" outside their everyday experience without listening to people who actually devote their lives to studying these issues. Just to make it clear I'm not talking about religious authorities but academic scholars working for universities and military and intelligence institutions.

Offline TheContrarian

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2016, 12:17:25 pm »
Yes, yes Conty. The timing of your response was telling. Go and sing about the glories of old England and Bitter Celts with your Really Absolutely  True Scotchman pals now.

Is that really the best you can do?

A stupid logical fallacy and some really inept playground insults?

Are you 8 years old?


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Offline TheContrarian

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2016, 12:19:15 pm »
I actually don't see a problem with blaming Islam the ideology for the attacks. However I don't blame every Muslim or most Muslims for the attack just as I don't blame followers of the Russian Orthodox Church for war crimes in Checnya.

Blaming ideology of Islam would be the same as blaming the ideology of Christianity for the athrocities in Chechnya or the Westborough Baptist Church. Both Islam and Christianity hold so many conflicting ideologies within them which are constantly adapting to the political and social landscapes that generalizing is misleading. What people mean when they talk about "ideology of Islam" is their superficial interpretation of the multitude of cultures lumped together within the term of "Islam".

As I have said many times, religion is a significant part of the whole equation but still only a part. Simplifying Islam into a heterogenic ideology plays into the harmful and misleading narrative that is constantly built both consciously and unintentionally by different sides in the cultural conflict. I hold no fondness towards any religion myself but I dislike and find it harmful when people simplify multifaceted issues because they come from "the other" outside their everyday experience without listening to people who actually devote their lives to studying these issues. Just to make it clear I'm not talking about religious authorities but academic scholars working for universities and military and intelligence institutions.

Well you can subdivide Islam into its' different sects and regional ideologies if you like, but when 99% of all the terrorist attacks not just in the middle-east and Europe but WORLDWIDE are committed by one or other of those subgroups, it's a pretty irrelevant thing to do.


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Offline dpareja

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2016, 04:18:35 pm »
Charleston.

Shooting up abortion clinics.

Tim McVeigh.

Anders Breivik.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline TheContrarian

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2016, 05:43:22 pm »
Charleston.

Shooting up abortion clinics.

Tim McVeigh.

Anders Breivik.

(2) is non-specific, (3) was TWENTY-ONE years ago.

Do you really want me to post a list of every islamic terror attack since 1995?  Even if I just restricted it to 2016 you'd probably whinge about the GIGANTIC pile of copypasta.

Even if we just go with the list of islamic atrocities since Anders Breivik, 5 years of attacks by untrue scotsmen run to a death toll of tens of thousands.

Got anything more recent?  I mean you lot are always going on about how the far right are this massive scary death mob, so they've got to be at least comparable to poor innocent muslims, right?


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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2016, 09:31:56 pm »
Contrarian isn't here because he cares about the victims in Nice, he's here because he wants to rag on Muslims. It's why he waited days to respond to my question because he didn't want to be caught with his pants down. There'd be no propaganda value if it were just another angry twit.

This isn't about religion for types like him, it's about culture. He doesn't have  a coherent answer as to why the bible is less of a bloody document or how people who killed in it's name are less fanatic. Specifically the further things get culturally, linguistically and physically from the home counties of England the more beyond the pale they are for people like him. It's good old fashioned xenophobia, he just doesn't have the stones to admit it.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2016, 07:41:35 am »
I actually don't see a problem with blaming Islam the ideology for the attacks. However I don't blame every Muslim or most Muslims for the attack just as I don't blame followers of the Russian Orthodox Church for war crimes in Checnya.

Blaming ideology of Islam would be the same as blaming the ideology of Christianity for the athrocities in Chechnya or the Westborough Baptist Church. Both Islam and Christianity hold so many conflicting ideologies within them which are constantly adapting to the political and social landscapes that generalizing is misleading. What people mean when they talk about "ideology of Islam" is their superficial interpretation of the multitude of cultures lumped together within the term of "Islam".

As I have said many times, religion is a significant part of the whole equation but still only a part. Simplifying Islam into a heterogenic ideology plays into the harmful and misleading narrative that is constantly built both consciously and unintentionally by different sides in the cultural conflict. I hold no fondness towards any religion myself but I dislike and find it harmful when people simplify multifaceted issues because they come from "the other" outside their everyday experience without listening to people who actually devote their lives to studying these issues. Just to make it clear I'm not talking about religious authorities but academic scholars working for universities and military and intelligence institutions.

Well you can subdivide Islam into its' different sects and regional ideologies if you like, but when 99% of all the terrorist attacks not just in the middle-east and Europe but WORLDWIDE are committed by one or other of those subgroups, it's a pretty irrelevant thing to do.

There is a huge, flashing CITATION NEEDED -notification attached to your figure. On the other hand, it doesn't even matter to this particular point if it was accurate. What definitely matters is to make the distinction which subgroups are the ones who fan the flames in the ongoing conflict. Not only are you not unnecessarily aggravating members of the other subgroups and making them more likely to ally with the ones advocating violence but you can make them your allies. These allies are a vital factor in preventing attacks before they happen since they are the first ones to see the warning signs in the people in their religious communities.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot something. Separating which subgroups are the ones spreading violent propaganda leads to locating the ideologically cancerous influences like the Saudis. They are a huge factor in the ideological conflict within Islam and the West needs to stop enabling them if we want to have an actual long term solution to the problem of Islamic terrorism.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 07:52:46 am by SCarpelan »

Offline TheContrarian

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2016, 12:21:57 pm »
Charleston.

Shooting up abortion clinics.

Tim McVeigh.

Anders Breivik.

(2) is non-specific, (3) was TWENTY-ONE years ago.

Do you really want me to post a list of every islamic terror attack since 1995?  Even if I just restricted it to 2016 you'd probably whinge about the GIGANTIC pile of copypasta.

Even if we just go with the list of islamic atrocities since Anders Breivik, 5 years of attacks by untrue scotsmen run to a death toll of tens of thousands.

Got anything more recent?  I mean you lot are always going on about how the far right are this massive scary death mob, so they've got to be at least comparable to poor innocent muslims, right?
The death toll of Islamic terrorism in the west would be around 4 thousand roughly.

Edit: that's less than the civilian death toll of the first year in Afganistan.

Oh well I guess that makes it all alright then.

Move on everyone, nothing to see here.  ALLAHU ACKBAR!


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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Attack in Nice
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2016, 10:00:00 pm »
Your cry of solidarity with kindred spirit conservative reactionaries is duly noted!