Author Topic: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread  (Read 17089 times)

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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2016, 11:23:00 pm »
I recall seeing people make a different sort of "SJWs don't play video games" argument after Undertale's release, which can be paraphrased as: the people raving about Undertale's pacifistic options and talking about it as a critique of RPGs clearly don't play video games because most RPGs aren't nearly as murdery as they seem to think and they don't seem to be aware of previous games exploring the same themes. This paraphrase did not refer to that subset of Undertale fans as "SJWs", but I think some instances of the argument that I saw did. This argument seems much better than the ones you're talking about (although it seems to me like it overcorrects too far, but, then again, I have not played a huge number of RPGs myself and IIRC hadn't played whatever specific games they brought up), but it's also much more precisely targeted. Those two things are probably related.

At the same time, it's also ignoring that Undertale is a take on SNES and PS1 era JRPGs, not RPGs as a whole. Last I checked, in the vast majority of the JRPGs that inspired Undertale, the means to solve conflict always boils down to kill the enemy. I didn't befriend Lavos into surrendering, I stabbed him over and over again without stopping to think that there might be a peaceful resolution. Speaking as someone who has played a hell of a lot of classic JRPGs, you generally aren't given the option to NOT stab the thing standing in front of you.

Now, I'm not so stupid to think that every JRPG protagonist is a murderer that should have tried to talk things out with the bad guys instead of fighting as that would be like saying that an action movie should show the characters solving everything by just talking, which is missing the point. Undertale got the praise it got because it really IS unusual for a game in that style to give you an option to get through the story without stabbing first, asking questions later.
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Offline Askold

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2016, 12:02:01 am »
Yeah, in JRPGs if there is a peaceful solution then it happens automatically whether or not the player actually wanted to murder the shit out of those people/things anyway. And if there is a violent solution then the player never gets an option of handling it non-violently.

Western CRPGs more commonly offer both options to the player and let them choose. Fallout games for example have often a diplomatic solution, stealth solution and violent solution to several quests.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2016, 12:24:27 am »
Ironically, the game I used as an example does give you a chance to choose between killing and recruiting the final party member, plus you have the option to save the silent protagonist's life by kicking the space-time continuum in the balls.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2016, 01:23:33 am »
I haven't played The Division yet, but from my understanding, society has collapsed and you're shooting violent criminals.
"Rioting" doesn't justify the original British Riot Act which was read out before the readcoats went all Viking on the angry commoners.

I know the Pentagon has endorsed computer games in the past. I wonder if the gun industry has any sweetheart deals with game companies.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 01:37:43 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Askold

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2016, 01:56:22 am »
Seeing as the sales of certain guns goes up the moment the gun is seen in the latest FPS shooter it is possible.

There was a Youtube video about "game guns" that really got popular that way. I can't seem to find it now but one of the things mentioned was a gun store owner who suddenly had a lot of young people asking about an assault rifle that just came to the market. Even the hard core gun enthusiasts hadn't heard about that gun yet but for some reason it got a lot of first gun buyers really wanted it. Turns out that it was used in Modern warfare 2 so a lot of nerds wanted it. SCAR was the rifle in question I believe.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2016, 02:01:26 am »
Yeah, in JRPGs if there is a peaceful solution then it happens automatically whether or not the player actually wanted to murder the shit out of those people/things anyway. And if there is a violent solution then the player never gets an option of handling it non-violently.

Western CRPGs more commonly offer both options to the player and let them choose. Fallout games for example have often a diplomatic solution, stealth solution and violent solution to several quests.
I recall in DAI  an Inquisition scout telling you that the bandits don't take prisoners, then you go and stab all the bandits. Actually you don't get the option to take many prisoners save one smuggler in the Western Approach and an agent of Corypheus at the Empresses ball, and then only because they have tactical value to your side.

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2016, 08:04:23 am »
That's one of the reasons I've wanted to make an RPG for a very, very long time.  Always had, in my head, an in-depth reputation system where you get different reputations depending on what you do a la Fallout 1/2, but every NPC reacts differently depending on their own personal views.  If you get a reputation for simply killing bandits, some NPCs would treat you like a dispenser of quick justice, whereas others would see you as a murderous vigilante little better than the bandits you kill without mercy.  Intelligent opponents would even try to surrender to the PC, and you can either tie them up and send them to the guards or just kill them.  If you do the latter in front of people, a lot of them would be horrified, and you'd gain a reputation for being vicious and merciless.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2016, 08:25:23 am »
It does raise an interesting moral conundrum in medieval and post apocalypse settings, what do you do with non monsterous enemies if they surrender? Enslave them and get them to work off their misdeeds, give 'em to the local authorities who might be less than merciful, put them in the stocks-what? None of the options in those settings are exactly clean or clean cut.

Offline Askold

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2016, 08:29:11 am »
I once played in a RPG campaign where the PCs did give bandits to the local authorities once some of them went unconscious in a fight rather than dying.

They got hanged from a tree as was customary thereabouts. Frontier justice!

And speaking of defeated enemies, letting them flee is always an option. It comes from DnD (although other RPGS also have this kind of entality) mindset that you have to kill all your enemies. "If they run that means less exp/loot" is a pretty gamey way to handle it. For me (and my characters) defeating the enemies and completing the objective is usually enough. Sometimes simply surviving is enough and there is no need to hunt down every single enemy.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2016, 08:39:41 am »
It does raise an interesting moral conundrum in medieval and post apocalypse settings, what do you do with non monsterous enemies if they surrender? Enslave them and get them to work off their misdeeds, give 'em to the local authorities who might be less than merciful, put them in the stocks-what? None of the options in those settings are exactly clean or clean cut.

Precisely, which is why NPCs would view it differently on an individual basis.  Some would view taking bandits to trial (which would be a thing in my setting) as a complete waste of money and time, that imprisoning them doesn't change them, and they're not completely wrong.  But, where do you draw the line?  Some people view due process as an unnecessary piece of red tape, holding justice back.  On the other hand, who makes the PCs judge, jury, and executioner?  Are they an official arm of the law?  Most times, they're just freelancers with money, resources, and special abilities.  Someone who hands bandits over to the law could just as easily be considered a coward by some, either unwilling or unable to solve the problem on their own.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2016, 09:07:40 am »
It does raise an interesting moral conundrum in medieval and post apocalypse settings, what do you do with non monsterous enemies if they surrender? Enslave them and get them to work off their misdeeds, give 'em to the local authorities who might be less than merciful, put them in the stocks-what? None of the options in those settings are exactly clean or clean cut.

Precisely, which is why NPCs would view it differently on an individual basis.  Some would view taking bandits to trial (which would be a thing in my setting) as a complete waste of money and time, that imprisoning them doesn't change them, and they're not completely wrong.  But, where do you draw the line?  Some people view due process as an unnecessary piece of red tape, holding justice back.  On the other hand, who makes the PCs judge, jury, and executioner?  Are they an official arm of the law?  Most times, they're just freelancers with money, resources, and special abilities.  Someone who hands bandits over to the law could just as easily be considered a coward by some, either unwilling or unable to solve the problem on their own.

From an adventurer's perspective handing the captives to the law might not always be an option at all. Without modern infrastructure taking them to the law can be a big effort and you often have something important and urgent to do and delay might endanger lives. In a medieval/post-apocalyptic setting the punishment would probably be death anyway and there would be no resources for due process as we see it. Imprisonment is a fairly modern solution that requires a lot of resources, after all, and immediate physical or shame punishments are more practical in such societies. What goes for due process might not be any more reliable or just from our perspective than the characters punishing the bandits themselves.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 09:11:05 am by SCarpelan »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2016, 06:14:58 pm »
Which makes for good role playing. Your decisions have reprecussions whatever you do, or don't do. The witcher III has a side quest where you catch the guy who torched a local dwarves forge, if you turn him over to the soldiers they simply kill him telling you that no trial is needed and "a tree is sufficient". To me this stuff adds to the immersion.

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2016, 06:20:18 pm »
There's a few mods for Fallout New Vegas that I absolutely love for how immersive they are.  Shut up Opera it so too is a word.  New Vegas Bounties adds a whole new level of immersion to the game as well as gives you a storyline that actually pays off in the end.  Of course Fallout 3 had the same thing if you joined up with either the Regulators or Littlehorn and Associates which baffles me.  3 is set in the Capital Wasteland while New Vegas is in the wild wild west.  Surely the Regulators and Littlehorn would be out there as well.  Ahh well.  At least we got mods.

Ironbite-sweet sweet mods.

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2016, 03:37:14 am »
"Christians don't play video games because Bayonetta sold well" seems like a structurally different argument: "Xs don't play video games because game-that-would-be-expected-to-appeal-less-to-Xs sold well" versus "Xs don't play video games because game-that-would-be-expected-to-appeal-more-to-Xs sold poorly". They're both not very good arguments, though the latter isn't quite as bad about an observation that should provide some evidence about the video game playing tendencies of Xs (though not necessarily about whether they play at all; it could also indicate that the assumption that the game would appeal to Xs was incorrect or that Xs don't spend money on games or that Xs predominantly play old games). To be clear, I do think it's still a bad argument; the other is just pretty hard to match.

Yeah, fair enough.

I was thinking about that whole Baldur's Gate thing, and about how some people have been saying that not being able to be transphobic to Mizhena constitutes being "treated with kid gloves" and "immersion breaking". Should any game with a real-world minority character allow for an option to perpetuate real-world bigotry to that character? Do racists and homophobes and such deserve to be catered to? My personal opinion: no on both counts.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2016, 03:57:15 am »
Personally, IMHO cries for the inclusion of RW bigotry in the name of "realism" are composed entirely of donkey shite. It's not "immersion" to have bigoted dickbags everywhere in your game, it's pandering to those who want to normalize bigoted dickbaggery.

If you are using it to.tell a story, ok-maybe. If the story is "this stuff aint a big deal", you're talking out your arse.