Author Topic: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support  (Read 27585 times)

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2013, 10:08:56 pm »
And so at the end of the day it literally comes down to she's carrying a fetus and that's a special situation that gets to essentially circumvent any law or right that exists for everyone else. To that I say bullshit.

Bullshit is a hell of an argument.

Yes, I thing the right for the fetus to live and develop trumps just about everything else except her right to her body.  In this situation she, her consciousness, is gone.  So next in line is the fetus which needs her body to live.

In this case it is actually a hell of an argument.  ;)

We're on opposite sides of the fence on this one. There is nothing you can say that will ever convince me that a clump of cells can ever supersede the rights and laws that exist for everyone except a pregnant woman and I highly doubt that I can convince you that the state really needs to stay the hell out of this (particularly before the 20 week mark) since it is the responsibility of her spouse to decide what is best in this case.

Given the loggerhead, we might as well settle for saying each others position is full of shit and be done with it.

Offline Neith

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2013, 12:39:57 am »
Fact 1: If Marlise had not been pregnant when she died, her husband would have had the legal right to keep her off those machines. If her life could have been saved but she was unconscious or unable to consent for any other reason, he is the one who would have the legal right to approve any medical procedures that the doctors may see fit to perform.

Fact 2: She is still within the legal time frame for elective abortion. This time frame shouldn't be nearly as relevant since she's DEAD, but that's beside the point in this case.

Since she is DEAD, why isn't her husband allowed to opt for that abortion on her behalf? Abortion is both a medical and personal decision, and it is the spouse's right and responsibility to make medical decisions for someone who is unable to consent, so how in the hell is it even possible for the state to trump those laws and say, "Fuck you, we're going to make you all suffer while we use Marlise's body as an incubator for some kid who will most likely come out brain damaged, if he/she survives at all."

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2013, 01:19:38 am »
He's going to get stuck with the hospital bill, very likely, too. Insurance in this case could end because the woman is legally and medically dead, even with a pregnancy rider in the policy, because the court order to keep her body going is essentially unprecedented, not deemed originally by the docs as medically necessary, and is basically "experimental'...a la Frankenstein experimental. So, assuming her body is being maintained in ICU, since her brain stem is gone too, this includes heart/lung machine and kidney dialysis, maternity micronutrient drips and high calorie liquid soya food replacement, plus all the fetal monitoring costs for sonograms, amniocentesis, blood tests, fetal heart monitoring and etc., at an average cost of 3,000 to 4,500 dollars per day, from the 14th week of pregnancy to term at 38-40 weeks, that alone could come up to between $637,000 - $819,000. Nice. Then there's the C-section, and neonatal ICU most likely, especially if they go in early, and mostly because the baby will be all fucked up from anoxia since way back when it's mom died of pulmonary embolism.

Dude might as well just pack a suitcase and diaper bag, strap his first born in the car seat and leave the country ASAP...
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Offline Neith

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2013, 01:42:59 am »
Dude might as well just pack a suitcase and diaper bag, strap his first born in the car seat and leave the country ASAP...

This actually sounds like a sane idea, under the circumstances.

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2013, 02:05:08 pm »
*eats more popcorn*

Ironbite-this is getting fun!

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2013, 09:53:40 pm »
Look Mr twissted nickers
it doesnt matter what you or anyone thinks is right HER HUSBAND IS THE LAST WORD always has been always will be unless she had a different proxy in the end her husband and same with Terry Shivo cases in the case of no will make the final call. 

Offline driewerf

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2013, 02:15:04 pm »
The story says it was unclear if the woman had a DNR order or not.  In any event I think saving one life even if going against a person's wishes is better than losing two lives.

So what do you think about mandatory organ donation in the event of your death?  That when you die, your body becomes the property of the state to dissect and distribute as best meets the needs of everyone else, regardless of you or your family's wishes.
No problem with that. Here in Belgium everybody is organ donor by default, unless you asked and carry a statement that you don't want your organs been taken away.

Offline driewerf

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2013, 02:19:09 pm »
He's going to get stuck with the hospital bill, very likely, too.
Can the husband be accountable for this bill? If it is imposed upon him by a judge, against his will?

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2013, 02:35:00 pm »
You don't know the United States Medical Industry.

Offline Ghoti

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2013, 05:02:37 pm »
*eats more popcorn*

Ironbite-this is getting fun!
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Offline Feral Dog

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2013, 06:09:23 pm »
You don't know the United States Medical Industry.

^ What he said.

There's a reason that medical tourism is a growing industry in the United States, and that reason is our current healthcare system is set up to wring out as much money as possible from the patient for quality of care that is lower than most other industrialized nations- unless you are lucky enough to get into one of the really nice research hospitals.

Medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US (60% of all bankruptcies, last I read). Insurance companies can refuse to cover certain treatments*, can demand you try different medications before name-brand (some generics aren't formulated the same, and for some conditions this is a huge problem), and they don't have to give an explanation for dropping you**.

Long story short, driewerf, if this continues the husband will be legally obligated to pay for the same expensive, ongoing treatments he has been trying to end.

*I'm not entirely sure if the ACA changes this.
** I think the ACA changes this.
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Offline TheUnknown

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2013, 07:20:59 pm »
You don't know the United States Medical Industry.

^ What he said.

There's a reason that medical tourism is a growing industry in the United States, and that reason is our current healthcare system is set up to wring out as much money as possible from the patient for quality of care that is lower than most other industrialized nations- unless you are lucky enough to get into one of the really nice research hospitals.

Medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US (60% of all bankruptcies, last I read). Insurance companies can refuse to cover certain treatments*, can demand you try different medications before name-brand (some generics aren't formulated the same, and for some conditions this is a huge problem), and they don't have to give an explanation for dropping you**.

Long story short, driewerf, if this continues the husband will be legally obligated to pay for the same expensive, ongoing treatments he has been trying to end.

*I'm not entirely sure if the ACA changes this.
** I think the ACA changes this.

This reminds me of a story I read from Japan (that I can't find now) about a woman who stabbed her vegetable son (who was an adult, I believe) because the hospital refused her request to remove his life support, which also meant that the hospital would continue to milk her for large amounts of money for the continued treatment, which she couldn't afford.  She was put in prison, but the court was sympathetic to her reasons so her sentence was comparatively much shorter than what it normally would have been.

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2013, 08:31:35 pm »
Somehow I missed the part that mentioned she no longer has any brain activity. Guess I saw the beginning of the sentence: "Doctors say it's likely..." and didn't record the rest of the sentence, because lol weasel words.

It doesn't matter, really. You claim the situation would be different if there was no brain activity. It wouldn't, not in the eyes of this monstrous law. A comatose women would have no more control over her own life. Nor would a partially or fully conscious one, for that matter. No difference. I don't know if you're also okay with that, I don't think so, but you certainly never spoke against the law itself, either.

You don't seem to have any ethical problem with treating female corpses as incubators against their wishes. I can tolerate that on some level, since I myself am totally in line with the idea of making available the organs of anyone who won't need them anymore and didn't explicitly opt out of donation. You don't think that people have a right to choose what should or shouldn't be done with their bodies after they stop being people, yet seem very hung up about respecting fantasies of post-mortem bodily integrity. I think pretty much the opposite, that rejection of organ donation is based on stupid superstition, while using someone's body as a living machine after their cerebral death is a chillingly dehumanizing act towards the person that was.

But that stuff is about personal feelings and doesn't really matter. The most salient difference is that I still want to allow people who have a different opinion than mine to see their wishes respected, even though it may prevent actual lives from being saved ; while you're willing to shit on someone's choice about their own body in order to save something that has no past or present (and in this case, probably no future) as a sentient being. Why are you even pro-choice, again?

For one I have never believed that body rights are absolutes.  As it is we as a society dictate what a person can and can't put in their bodies.  In this situation we are talking about two lives.

Now that law as I understand it is to broad.  It would not allow ending the women's life if the fetus is later found to be very damaged.  Nor would it allow ending her life had the pregnancy been the result of rape.

As far as why I'm pro-choice, that is because I don't see how you could ever enforce anything else.  Studies have shown that rates of abortions don't go down with anti-abortion laws.  I also think that a women has a greater right to her body than a fetus and she has the right to end a pregnancy at any time.  That also means I don't think abortions should be allowed after a fetus is viable, as the women can end the pregnancy at that point with killing the fetus.  I also don't think that right extends to anyone other than the women.

 
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2013, 08:35:02 pm »
The problem is, that she, herself, specifically and legally requested a DNR order.

Her rights are being posthumously violated because of a clump of cells in her body.

Please consider that.
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Texas orders pregnant woman with a DNR order to be kept on life support
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2013, 08:40:49 pm »
The problem is, that she, herself, specifically and legally requested a DNR order.

Her rights are being posthumously violated because of a clump of cells in her body.

Please consider that.

It's not clear that she had a DNR order or that such order would normally include a situation such as this.

That clump of cells is developing into a person.  That should be considered as well.
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