Author Topic: Bangbang discussion  (Read 5649 times)

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Bangbang discussion
« on: July 25, 2012, 05:17:55 am »


I don't know why, but I'm detecting the distinct aroma of bullshit...

[Not saying the cartoon is inaccurate, just that its conclusion (that I may very well be wrong about) is bullshitty.]
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 01:05:18 pm by Distind »
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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 05:41:34 am »
Meh, my problem with said cartoon is that these points of view to implement gun control laws (or laws restricting guns from the mental disturbed, or banning assault rifles, or 100 round clips, etc) these cartoons which take the stance to implement some sort of gun control is very time specific. If this cartoon was posted last week before the tragedy in Aurora, it would be under "Worst Cartoons" and forumites would be saying how bad and ineffective gun control laws are, not to mention "they're trying to take our guns." I speak of the board, but I think we could reasonable extrapolate our views of this unto the larger American society in that this comic is only taken seriously after something as tragic as Aurora.

Just saying, being a retroactive society, and then doing nothing after the fact, is kind of depressing.  :-\

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 06:38:32 am »
I've no problem with sensible regulation of firearms in general.  In fact, I'm all for it.  What bothers me is that the original reason why the 2nd Amendment was created, to ensure citizens were armed in case of invasion or necessary revolt, hasn't been exercised, not because of apathy, but because, as bad as things have gotten, people on the whole realize that lethal force and violent revolutions are the last of last resorts to achieve their social and political goals.  That doesn't make the amendment somehow unnecessary, should the time come when violent upheaval is required to restore this country to its founding principles, and to overthrow tyranny, we will have the arms necessary to at least have a fighting chance.

That said, what we don't need is stricter laws, or more bans, but more sensible regulation, and stricter enforcement of the laws that are already in place.  Of course, we do need laws to cover things like assault weapons and such, but all in all, its not the laws that really need addition or alteration, but their enforcement.
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Offline Damen

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 08:16:17 am »
I've no problem with sensible regulation of firearms in general.  In fact, I'm all for it.  What bothers me is that the original reason why the 2nd Amendment was created, to ensure citizens were armed in case of invasion or necessary revolt, hasn't been exercised, not because of apathy, but because, as bad as things have gotten, people on the whole realize that lethal force and violent revolutions are the last of last resorts to achieve their social and political goals.  That doesn't make the amendment somehow unnecessary, should the time come when violent upheaval is required to restore this country to its founding principles, and to overthrow tyranny, we will have the arms necessary to at least have a fighting chance.

That said, what we don't need is stricter laws, or more bans, but more sensible regulation, and stricter enforcement of the laws that are already in place.  Of course, we do need laws to cover things like assault weapons and such, but all in all, its not the laws that really need addition or alteration, but their enforcement.

I agree with the vast majority of this except for the assault weapon laws for the simple reason that functionally they are no different than a hunting rifle, are much, much harder to conceal than other weapons and are used in less than 1% of gun-related crimes.

That said I feel that the regulations we have on the federal level are fairly lax and a lot of the state-level regulations are largely unenforced and this is something that has to change. For example, I keep hearing that "we need to close the gunshow loophole." I must be fairly insulated or this is an example of laws varying by state because the few times I've been to the local gunshows to pick up some such odd or end, every time I saw someone buying a firearm they were filling out a 4473 and the dealer was making a call to NICS.

I'm of the opinion that what we have on the books right now needs to be enforced before we start passing a flurry of more bills that will go unread and unheeded.
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Offline TigerHunter

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 03:38:42 pm »
To clarify, I'm not in favor of making all guns illegal, just the ones that have no purpose beyond lots of people in a short amount of time (like the AR-15 used in Aurora) and regulating the rest of them at least as well as cars.

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 03:57:00 pm »
To clarify, I'm not in favor of making all guns illegal, just the ones that have no purpose beyond lots of people in a short amount of time (like the AR-15 used in Aurora) and regulating the rest of them at least as well as cars.

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Offline TigerHunter

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 05:01:06 pm »
Would you care to explain yourself instead of posting overused image macros? Assault rifles aren't used for hunting and are impractical for self-defense. The only civilians I can see having any use for them are crazies like James Holmes.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 05:05:20 pm by TigerHunter »

Offline Damen

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 06:22:34 pm »
Would you care to explain yourself instead of posting overused image macros? Assault rifles aren't used for hunting and are impractical for self-defense. The only civilians I can see having any use for them are crazies like James Holmes.

As a matter of fact, I have just made a thread about firearms and ARs in particular.

And believe it or not, ARs are, in fact, used for hunting. They're small game rifles; rabbits, squirrels, and things of that sort. And for home defense they offer a great psychological advantage. If a robber finds a homeowner aiming one of those at him, his first thought will be to go away. Also, ARs are an inexpensive and very accurate platform for hobby target shooters such as myself.

*EDIT*

Link fixed.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 11:04:43 pm by Damen »
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 08:01:12 pm »
I've no problem with sensible regulation of firearms in general.  In fact, I'm all for it.  What bothers me is that the original reason why the 2nd Amendment was created, to ensure citizens were armed in case of invasion or necessary revolt, hasn't been exercised, not because of apathy, but because, as bad as things have gotten, people on the whole realize that lethal force and violent revolutions are the last of last resorts to achieve their social and political goals.

Firearms are not a last resort to achieving political goals. To the extent that the use of firearms is effective, it is not legitimate (the most common political use of firearms is blowing away political leaders for disagreeing with you, which is the most common definition of tyranny). To the extent that the use of firearms is legitimate, it is not effective (no actual tyranny will ever be overthrown by untrained, half-armed idiots).

Good checks and balances on government power include the court system, the separation of powers, an effective two-party or multi-party system and, above all, citizen engagement with politics. Guns are not an effective check on government power.
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Offline TigerHunter

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 08:33:16 pm »
And believe it or not, ARs are, in fact, used for hunting. They're small game rifles; rabbits, squirrels, and things of that sort. And for home defense they offer a great psychological advantage. If a robber finds a homeowner aiming one of those at him, his first thought will be to go away. Also, ARs are an inexpensive and very accurate platform for hobby target shooters such as myself.
What's the advantage over hunting rifles (for hunting, obviously) and a shotgun (for home defense)? All the gun safety courses I've taken have suggested shotguns for home defense, pointing out the psychological advantage of the sound it makes when being cocked.

Also, your link isn't working for me.

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 11:50:45 pm »
And believe it or not, ARs are, in fact, used for hunting. They're small game rifles; rabbits, squirrels, and things of that sort. And for home defense they offer a great psychological advantage. If a robber finds a homeowner aiming one of those at him, his first thought will be to go away. Also, ARs are an inexpensive and very accurate platform for hobby target shooters such as myself.
What's the advantage over hunting rifles (for hunting, obviously) and a shotgun (for home defense)? All the gun safety courses I've taken have suggested shotguns for home defense, pointing out the psychological advantage of the sound it makes when being cocked.

Also, your link isn't working for me.

Fixed the link.

The area of advantage in AR rifles differs from that of shotguns and generic hunting rifles and this is largely due to popular culture's portrayal of the rifle. For example, a shotgun being cocked says quite clearly "Get the fuck off my property" in every language.

However, an AR-15 looks exactly like it's military counterpart; which is also why it is so easy to demonize. When a crook sees an AR, the first thing he'll flash on is every post-Korean War movie he's ever seen and associate those images with that rifle. Another advantage over a shotgun is that a shotgun will hold, at most, nine rounds. Sounds like a lot, but a shotgun won't spew out a man-sized spread. At most, you may get a spread the size of an apple but in the close range of a home it isn't gonna spread much more than maybe an inch and a half or two inches so you'll still have to aim it.

An AR also has a common magazine size of 30 rounds and much less recoil than a shotgun so you can fire off a quick follow-up shot if you need to. It is also louder than a shotgun and inside neither you nor the assailant is going to hear anything at all for a while after the first round. Another thing about an AR is that is about the same over-all length as a shotgun if you have the carbine model so moving around indoors isn't a huge issue. And the rounds an AR shoots are light weight with 55 grains being the most common you'll find. What this means is that there is less chance of the rounds penetrating through two layers of drywall and all the odds and ends between the walls and still retaining a lethal velocity so lethal over-penetration isn't as much of a danger compared to a shotgun or even a handgun, both of which can fire slower, heavier rounds which can still be quite deadly. This isn't to say it's safe to blaze away inside, far from it, just that the chance of hitting an innocent is reduced slightly.

Now a hunting rifle is horrible for home defense for the fact that they are usually much heavier and longer than an AR, fire much larger, heavier and higher velocity rounds and rarely have a magazine capacity exceeding 5 to 8 rounds in addition to not having the psychological impact of being visually identical to a military rifle.

Now, I will not discount shotguns, not at all; they are fantastic for home defense. They're light weight and portable, cocking them can make an invader shit himself and they can fire about anything you can fit in the shell so there are scores of less-than-lethal ammo you can keep loaded into it that just aren't available in a .223 caliber. In fact, given the choices between my shotgun and my AR, the shotgun is my go-to gun if someone is trying to force their way into the house.

But my Fuck-Off-I-Am-Not-Even-Kidding gun is my AR and may even end up being my default choice for the simple fact that it would be the easiest for me to get to in a hurry.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 02:25:48 am »
I would also like to point out that some people have (semi automatic)assault rifles and other "military type weapons" for hobby use. That's right many people have a hobby of Practical shooting or other similar sports where people use pistols, rifles and shotguns shooting at "human shaped" targets in their scenarios.

And guess what? I am perfectly OK with that. If done by sensible people that hobby/sport is no more dangerous than any other. In fact, although some people see this as strawman, I feel that trying to limit magazine capacity or "military type guns" because "no one has need for them" is like limiting powerful cars and motorcycles, because no one ACTUALLY needs to go faster than 120km/h. (Well that is the highest speed limit in Finland.) Comparing a gun to a sports car might seem silly, but I feel that in the hands of a decent person neither is a danger to anyone and in the hands of an unstable person or a criminal both can be used for harm.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 02:42:18 am »
Australia, which has very stringent gun control laws, still allows target shooting with banned or restricted firearms. You're just not allowed to take the weapons outside without a permit.
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Offline KZN02

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 05:35:21 pm »
I remember my government teacher who told a story about some people who were hunting with automatic weapons. They found a rabbit, sprayed bullets, and everything but the rabbit was hit.
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Offline largeham

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Re: Bangbang discussion
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 08:23:27 pm »
I don't care what firearm you own, but what is wrong with having criminal and mental checks before selling the gun?

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