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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: I am lizard on October 16, 2014, 08:31:53 pm

Title: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: I am lizard on October 16, 2014, 08:31:53 pm
Let's continue the discussion here,

No brining up death/rape threats, that'll only lead to pissing contests.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on October 16, 2014, 08:34:42 pm
I'm all for female representation in gaming, but what certain individuals claim to be "misogyny" is just dumb.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 17, 2014, 12:17:24 am
I'm all for female representation in gaming, but what certain individuals claim to be "misogyny" is just dumb.
Yup.

If a little vague, what claims about stuff being misogyny are we talking about?
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Sylvana on October 17, 2014, 04:01:14 am
I dont know, there is a significant noticeable bias towards male representation. Meaty straight white male's are just assumed as the default in gaming. Lacking an option for me to play as a female character in some games particularly RPG's where the character is lacking in any distinct story driven personality discourages me significantly from playing those games.

Games like fable 1 for example discourage me from playing by preventing me form having a choice. While I greatly enjoyed fable 3 because it did. Things are getting better, in general. Some of the smaller AAA developers are starting to get the picture. Especially as females make up a massive segment of the gamer market these days. Other AAA developers, normally the ones with a reputation for treating their customers like mushy excrement haven't changed at all.

As for the gaming community, there is a definite air of misogyny. Women are completely over-sexualised and even treated as sexual objects. In many online games, female gamers act create male persona's just to be treated like equals. There are many stories of how during an online match a male gamer will hurl the standard abuses towards another gamer, but upon learning they are female will ask for pictures of their boobs. Similarly there is the whole gamer girl vs real gamer girl kerfuffle which was entirely pointless but caused the gamer community to wail like they do for anything else. In the gaming community women are not seen as equals. They are not given the same level of respect as any other male in a similar situation.

Now I don't expect to improve the gaming community in any way. Given how they get their panties in an absolute twist whenever the most irrelevant of things happens has shown they are pretty much a lost cause. However, publishers promoting the bias towards men is just bad business. Inclusiveness promotes sales. They wont loose those guys who complain about the option for a character to be female or gay or whatever, because I guarantee those guys will have per-ordered the game already just so they can complain about it.

Just my somewhat more than 2 cents.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Lt. Fred on October 17, 2014, 04:13:40 am
I'm all for female representation in gaming, but what certain individuals claim to be "misogyny" is just dumb.

An example would be good, perhaps.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 17, 2014, 04:48:30 am
I dont know, there is a significant noticeable bias towards male representation. Meaty straight white male's are just assumed as the default in gaming. Lacking an option for me to play as a female character in some games particularly RPG's where the character is lacking in any distinct story driven personality discourages me significantly from playing those games.

Games like fable 1 for example discourage me from playing by preventing me form having a choice. While I greatly enjoyed fable 3 because it did. Things are getting better, in general. Some of the smaller AAA developers are starting to get the picture. Especially as females make up a massive segment of the gamer market these days. Other AAA developers, normally the ones with a reputation for treating their customers like mushy excrement haven't changed at all.

A good example of things going in the right direction was this (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/120412-Halo-4-Sexism-Earns-You-a-Lifetime-Ban). Any rapey comments and you're gone, simple.

I like.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Ironchew on October 17, 2014, 05:29:10 pm
I'm all for female representation in gaming, but

The clause before the "but" doesn't count.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 17, 2014, 06:18:00 pm
I'm not a ______ but...
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: I am lizard on October 17, 2014, 06:27:48 pm
I'm all for female representation in gaming, but what certain individuals claim to be "misogyny" is just dumb.
Yup.

If a little vague, what claims about stuff being misogyny are we talking about?
Dunno, but technically the statement is true.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 17, 2014, 06:30:00 pm
Technically, the statement "a person likes bacon" is true, sans context it's a bit of a headscratcher.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on October 17, 2014, 07:11:44 pm
Let's compile a few of my complaints on her evaluations in this post, so you can either rip them to shit or agree with me.

Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Old Viking on October 17, 2014, 07:38:19 pm
So tell me again, this is part of an endless discussion about games?  Like Parcheesi and Chinese Checkers, only electronic in this instance?  I think that in the grand scheme of the universe they have the same value.  Originally they were intended to be fun ... a diversion.  Now they're serious, huh?
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 17, 2014, 08:27:52 pm
So tell me again, this is part of an endless discussion about games?  Like Parcheesi and Chinese Checkers, only electronic in this instance?  I think that in the grand scheme of the universe they have the same value.  Originally they were intended to be fun ... a diversion.  Now they're serious, huh?

Ah-I see you've been away for a while!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 17, 2014, 08:31:05 pm
Let's compile a few of my complaints on her evaluations in this post, so you can either rip them to shit or agree with me.

  • In her evaluation of Dolllhouse, she dislikes the protagonists because of violence against women. Compare with Women as Background Decoration, where she hates the use of violence against a woman to paint somebody as evil. The latter is common, with her neither caring whether good or bad is being sexist.
  • Bones, as apparently crazy male serial killers as part of popular entertainment is a bad thing. CSI and Dexter both get this odd complaint.

Got links or titles? Sarkeesian makes a lot of videos-be a help of you could point to the ones we're talking about.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on October 19, 2014, 08:18:47 pm
I don't think any mistakes Anita Sarkeesian makes, while regrettable, really diminish the presence of misogyny in video games and the video game community. Believe it or not, Sarkeesian isn't the Feminist Gamer Girl Messiah we all slavishly worship. There are lots of people pointing out sexism in video games, not just Sarkeesian.

I agree, this kind of thing needs to be discussed.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 19, 2014, 08:31:53 pm
Ya know, Mass Effect was one of the most diverse-friendly AAA franchises ever released. It has strong, complex characters of all genders, sexualities and ethnic backgrounds. If you choose you can play FemShep which is almost a template for strong female characters in gaming.

But Mass Effect still has a whole species comprised entirely of of sexy, female, sperm stealing, stripper-pole dancing blue succubi!

So yeah, gender stereotypes really ain't that hard to find in gaming!
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on October 19, 2014, 08:35:17 pm
Ya know, Mass Effect was one of the most diverse-friendly AAA franchises ever released. It has strong, complex characters of all genders, sexualities and ethnic backgrounds. If you choose you can play FemShep which is almost a template for strong female characters in gaming.

But Mass Effect still has a whole species comprised entirely of of sexy, female, sperm stealing, stripper-pole dancing blue succubi!

So yeah, gender stereotypes really ain't that hard to find in gaming!

The only one doing the stereotyping here is you.  The Asari are much more complex than what you say they are.  And there's an in-universe explanation for why so many exotic dancers are Asari.  The Asari life cycle has a "maiden" stage, marked by a drive to explore and experience.  It seems likely that many Asari dancers are motivated by curiosity and/or restlessness.  That, combined with the fact that just about every species can find something to like about the Asari...
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 19, 2014, 08:49:48 pm
Oh man, I've read the in universe explanation for why so many Asari are exotic dancers, but someone still dreamed up a race of sperm-stealing hot women with dermal cornrolls and made exotic dancing an explicit part of their culture.

Let's just say it's odd that in a diverse universe none of the exotic dancers are Krogans,  Batarians‎, Salarians, Hanar or even Drell but their are shitloads of human ones and exotic blue sperm-stealing ones that look exactly human except for the Star trek color scheme and hentai cornrolls!‎

EDIT: Also, the maiden stage leads to curiosity? Ok Liara T'Soni's interest in archaeology is a far better fit for that  than frickin' pole dancing which always takes place in the same dingy club and you learn nothing more profound than how easy it is to separate horny men from their money!

I mean good God, have none of these women heard of snorkeling, spelunking, museums or hiking in their several thousand year lifespans?
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: ironbite on October 20, 2014, 01:01:27 am
And now I'm kinda glad I didn't play Mass Effect.

Ironbite-really?  And people got upset at a little bit of semi-clothed hanky panky in the first game?
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 20, 2014, 01:49:51 am
Eh, I'm not upset. Just able to spot boobies when a game designer puts them on a character in a way that isn't there for any other reason than to get me, a straight cis male, to look at said boobies.

(click to show/hide)

Matriarch Benezia, an ancient thousands year old Asari who is many centuries old and a wise and respected counselor.

With an enormous boob window to accentuate her "gravitas"!
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: I am lizard on October 20, 2014, 01:59:09 am
Eh, I'm not upset. Just able to spot boobies when a game designer puts them on a character in a way that isn't there for any other reason than to get me, a straight cis male, to look at said boobies.

(click to show/hide)

Matriarch Benezia, an ancient thousands year old Asari who is many centuries old and a wise and respected counselor.

With an enormous boob window to accentuate her "gravitas"!
That's justified because it's a space boob window.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Sylvana on October 20, 2014, 02:21:07 am
The developers even admitted that the design template for the Asari was that old Star trek the original series green alien women trope. Its sad that the games with some of the most progressive female writing, is still openly misogynistic. Although, it should be noted that femsheperd isn't really a good example of strong female character. The writing is done from a male perspective. It was made quite visible in ME3 with how masculine femshep approaches all the different relationships.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: I am lizard on October 20, 2014, 02:30:45 am
The developers even admitted that the design template for the Asari was that old Star trek the original series green alien women trope. Its sad that the games with some of the most progressive female writing, is still openly misogynistic. Although, it should be noted that femsheperd isn't really a good example of strong female character. The writing is done from a male perspective. It was made quite visible in ME3 with how masculine femshep approaches all the different relationships.
Eh, calling it misogynistic seems a bit much.

UP now gets mad at the use of the term.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Askold on October 20, 2014, 02:52:14 am
Personally I think that the Asari were at least written to be more complex than just "alien sexdoll-babes" and they have a in-universe justification for their reputation. (Also, young Asari rebel in other ways as well and are likely to be found among mercenaries and other "cool" groups.)

My issue with ME is that after the first game took some turns towards sexism (and silliness.) In the first game all characters wore practical looking armour when they were fighting but in ME2 and ME3 the female cast suddenly decided to wear sexy clothing to battle. Even when they were in toxic or vacuum enviroment. (Apart from the ME1 characters who kept their old armour which simply made this change even more apparent.)

Many things in the game had a reasonable explanation from in-universe point of view. Like the way Jack wore sexy "clothing" most of the time which kinda made sense concidering how she was a punk and wanted to make it show. ...Not putting on any armour when going to battle did NOT make sense.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 20, 2014, 03:27:07 am
It might be more complex and I never said it wasn't, Mass Effect is good in it's own merits as a well realized fictional world and space opera.

But it's also clear this is a male hetero sexual fantasy here, the foreign exotic "other" who seduces with their exotic charms.

And I don't think that they were intending to be sexist, but there is still sexism here. You have an entire species with a complex story, but the core-the very spine of that story is an objectifying fantasy. That's just what it is.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Canadian Mojo on October 20, 2014, 03:36:51 am
Eh, I'm not upset. Just able to spot boobies when a game designer puts them on a character in a way that isn't there for any other reason than to get me, a straight cis male, to look at said boobies.

(click to show/hide)

Matriarch Benezia, an ancient thousands year old Asari who is many centuries old and a wise and respected counselor.

With an enormous boob window to accentuate her "gravitas"!
That's justified because it's a space boob window.
In space no one can hear you motorboat.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 20, 2014, 04:35:01 am
Eh, I'm not upset. Just able to spot boobies when a game designer puts them on a character in a way that isn't there for any other reason than to get me, a straight cis male, to look at said boobies.

(click to show/hide)

Matriarch Benezia, an ancient thousands year old Asari who is many centuries old and a wise and respected counselor.

With an enormous boob window to accentuate her "gravitas"!
That's justified because it's a space boob window.
In space no one can hear you motorboat.

But I thought windows were a structural weakness in space.
Ah wait-so that's why mass effect has never had a Geth boob window!
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Askold on October 20, 2014, 04:51:18 am
But I thought windows were a structural weakness in space.
Ah wait-so that's why mass effect has never had a Geth boob window!

First I thought, why would a Geth even have boobs? Then I realized: Geth sexbots.

I did wonder briefly if the male/lesbian/bi Quarians even cared about boobs, but at this point it is far too late to bring logical or biological issues into this thought experiment.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 20, 2014, 05:00:55 am
Maybe they use emergency induction ports?
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Askold on October 20, 2014, 05:45:13 am
Maybe they use emergency induction ports?
I'm talking about BEFORE the Geth revolution. Back when the Quarians didn't need exosuits at all times and they were the ones building the Geth.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 20, 2014, 05:57:39 am
There was always a hint of sexual tension between Tali and Garrus, so maybe Quarians and Turians have compatible physiologies?

And Turians don't appear to have mammaries!
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Askold on October 20, 2014, 06:02:33 am
Or, maybe they were just romantically attracted despite being biologically non-compatible.

(I don't remember any references to cross species breeding in Mass Effect other than the Asari reproduction-weirdness.)
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 20, 2014, 06:31:53 am
True.

You can be romantically attracted to Garrus and be human, and we know they aren't biologically compatible.

So there is that.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Ghoti on October 20, 2014, 06:48:41 am
Turians and quarians are both dextro-amino based species, so they're probably more compatible with each other than anything else. I don't think a turian-quarian hybrid is possible but if the quarian's shitty immune system is compensated for I don't see any obvious reason why they wouldn't be compatible. I'd even go so far as to suggest the possibility of a common evolutionary origin - they've got the exact same "doglegs", similar hands, etc.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 20, 2014, 06:56:44 am
The Salarian and Krogan have the same dog legs.don't they?
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Ghoti on October 20, 2014, 05:28:31 pm
The Salarian and Krogan have the same dog legs.don't they?
Krogans don't, their knees bend forward. Salarians have backwards knees too but the proportions are different and they lack the bony spurs on the back of the legs.
Title: Re: Video game feminism woman.
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on October 20, 2014, 05:30:28 pm
Turians and quarians are both dextro-amino based species, so they're probably more compatible with each other than anything else. I don't think a turian-quarian hybrid is possible but if the quarian's shitty immune system is compensated for I don't see any obvious reason why they wouldn't be compatible. I'd even go so far as to suggest the possibility of a common evolutionary origin - they've got the exact same "doglegs", similar hands, etc.

Maybe it was a panspermia scenario?