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Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: Nightangel8212 on November 12, 2015, 05:51:08 pm

Title: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Nightangel8212 on November 12, 2015, 05:51:08 pm
....to the Mormon religion... is that called Mormonism? I'm not sure, but anyway....

I'm just putting this out there because I'm curious what is different about the Mormon religion from other Christian religions? My brother's still being a jackass, so I'm not gonna ask HIM about it... he gave me the dirtiest look imaginable after he told us we'd be saying grace before dinner when I was visiting my parents and I jokingly said "May the Goddess bless us all?" I'm hoping that he doesn't start hating on gays like many Mormons I've heard about (my dad would likely have a few very choice words for him if he did, thankfully. My dad may be a very devout RC but he doesn't agree with discriminating against homosexuals).

So... yeah, just more curious than anything... what makes Mormons different?
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: niam2023 on November 12, 2015, 05:59:42 pm
...weird posthumous conversion rituals.

I remember hearing David J Stewart rambling about Mormons believing they can eventually become gods of other planets, but Dirty Old Dave doesn't do the research even on rival Christian sects.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: guizonde on November 12, 2015, 06:02:16 pm
your dad's gonna flip. the rcc considers the mormons heretics. basically (and i may be wrong), their prophet joseph smith (known fraud, hack, and all-round demagogue) claimed to have proof that jesus roamed the us of a before he got crucified. there, he punished the ameridians with red skin for not believing in him, and went back to the middle east to get crucified. among other things, mormons believe that they're the one true american faith, that polygamy is fine (until the inclusion in the union of utah in what? 1877?) that gays are teh icky, and so are stimulants (no smokes, no drugs, no booze, no coffee).

also, the golden tablets that could only be read by joe smith by hiding them in a hat and using special glasses to read them. the book of mormon comes from these tablets. it reads like a crackfic.

i am now calling for backup because i feel out of my league.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: ironbite on November 12, 2015, 06:11:26 pm
Remember Skyfire?  That's typical Mormon behavior.

Ironbite-HAVE FUN!
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: R. U. Sirius on November 12, 2015, 06:13:08 pm
I thought the story was that Jesus visited America after the Resurrection and did the cursing and such then. Also, that the natives were descended from at least one of the Lost Tribes of Israel.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 12, 2015, 06:14:22 pm
....to the Mormon religion... is that called Mormonism? I'm not sure, but anyway....

I'm just putting this out there because I'm curious what is different about the Mormon religion from other Christian religions? My brother's still being a jackass, so I'm not gonna ask HIM about it... he gave me the dirtiest look imaginable after he told us we'd be saying grace before dinner when I was visiting my parents and I jokingly said "May the Goddess bless us all?" I'm hoping that he doesn't start hating on gays like many Mormons I've heard about (my dad would likely have a few very choice words for him if he did, thankfully. My dad may be a very devout RC but he doesn't agree with discriminating against homosexuals).

So... yeah, just more curious than anything... what makes Mormons different?

There are a number of fundamental differences between their beliefs and those of mainstream Christians.  For example, they believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate beings.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Nightangel8212 on November 12, 2015, 07:02:28 pm
My dad doesn't care that he converted to it... he's the sort that feels that as long as you believe in SOMETHING, it's all good. And he's happy my brother quit drinking (he was going through a case of beer a day) and quit smoking, both smokes and weed. And since we're in Canada, I don't know if it's going to be as bad as from what I've heard in the States...

It just sounds... weird from what I'm seeing so far. Then again, as a Pagan, maybe I shouldn't talk. :P

As long as he doesn't try converting me, we'll be fine. It just ticks me off that only a couple months ago, he went through this nice gesture to "make the peace" between me and him.... and now he's suddenly acting like an asshole again.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Id82 on November 12, 2015, 07:43:42 pm
Being that the Mormon faith follows a strong cult like behavior don't be surprised when his church tells him to cut communication and ties with family members that don't believe like they do.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: dpareja on November 12, 2015, 08:24:10 pm
....to the Mormon religion... is that called Mormonism? I'm not sure, but anyway....

I'm just putting this out there because I'm curious what is different about the Mormon religion from other Christian religions? My brother's still being a jackass, so I'm not gonna ask HIM about it... he gave me the dirtiest look imaginable after he told us we'd be saying grace before dinner when I was visiting my parents and I jokingly said "May the Goddess bless us all?" I'm hoping that he doesn't start hating on gays like many Mormons I've heard about (my dad would likely have a few very choice words for him if he did, thankfully. My dad may be a very devout RC but he doesn't agree with discriminating against homosexuals).

So... yeah, just more curious than anything... what makes Mormons different?

There are a number of fundamental differences between their beliefs and those of mainstream Christians.  For example, they believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate beings.

This is one of the biggest ones, for sure. It's worth noting that they don't accept any of the ecumenical councils, not even First Nicaea or First Constantinople.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Random Gal on November 12, 2015, 09:37:34 pm
Mormonism is just weird, to be honest.

It all started when the con artist prophet Joseph Smith made up a story about was visited by an angel, who told him that he would be the one to restore the fallen church. The angel led him to a set of golden plates buried in upstate New York, which Smith translated using bullshit mystical powers, and produced a narrative called the Book of Mormon.

It and other documents describe God as being an ascended being from the star Kolob, who physically produced humans as "spirit children" who could one day create and rule their own little universes if they were good enough Mormons in life. The narrative centers around the Nephites and Lamanites, refugees from the Babylonian invasion of Israel who fled across two oceans and settled in the Americas. Jesus apparently visited them after His resurrection. The good Nephites and the evil Lamanites apparently fought each other often, culminating in the Lamanites destroying the Nephites and becoming the ancestors of today's Native Americans. Of course, the Lamanites were cursed with having a "skin of blackness" at one point, explaining why Native Americans have brown skin and why they should be subjugated under whites.

As the above post states, Mormons do not accept any church councils as valid. According to Joseph Smith, the entire church fell away from God around 100 AD and has ben living in darkness since. The Mormon church is considered to be God's restoration of the original faith, and the only True Church in existence.

Moromns do have a secretive, cult-like aspect to them, I'll admit. Many of their rituals are performed in temples where non-Mormons are not allowed to enter, and are discussed little with outsiders. I lived in Utah during the summer of 2009 when I was working as a docent at Dinosaur National Monument, and it was different from most other places I'd done similar work in. Everything looked similar to typical clean, small-town life, but there were a lot of subtle things that just seemed "off" or wrong about the place that are hard to explain.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Sylvana on November 13, 2015, 12:34:45 am
This is completely personal opinion with no actual research.

From what I remember about the Mormons though is that Joseph Smith basically created a cult similar to Ron Hubbard's Scientology. The teaching and rules of his little cult pretty much changed on whimsy based on what he wanted at the time. Initially he was happily married to his wife, but then wanted to go and fuck other women, so all of a sudden the Mormonism encouraged polygamy. There were a few other times when the rules just changed all of a sudden to suit Joseph Smith, but I cant remember them off hand.

Short version they were a cult centered around Smith, and have since somehow gained legitimacy. They were based off of Christianity as its was easier to convert people from Christianity to something similar than something altogether new. However as I said each time something in Christianity got in Smiths way, suddenly new insight found out that he was right all along.

Being that the Mormon faith follows a strong cult like behavior don't be surprised when his church tells him to cut communication and ties with family members that don't believe like they do.

I think I remember hearing stories about this, not quite as bad as the Scientologists, but they do actively seek to separate believers from families who dont believe.

However as I stated, all stuff I heard around, none of it researched.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: niam2023 on November 13, 2015, 02:03:06 am
I KNEW THE KOLOB AND SPIRIT CHILDREN-UNIVERSE GOD THING WAS REAL!!

...J Stewart made the story sound LESS insane than it actually is.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Askold on November 13, 2015, 02:35:41 am
...weird posthumous conversion rituals.

Yeah, I think they still talk about Mormons who died in the Holocaust because they posthumously converted many of the dead... Israel has told them to stop it several times but they still do it because they think that by claiming that famous person being "posthumously" converted into Mormonism will mean that they can brag about them. I've told this before but at some point Mormons came to Finland and took microfilm images of the Church records so that they could be used for these posthumous conversions and afterwards the microfilms were donated to the Church. People who study their ancestry in Finland are grateful for that last bit since it meant that we got free copies of historical documents at a time when no digital copies existed.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: guizonde on November 13, 2015, 07:56:54 am
...weird posthumous conversion rituals.

Yeah, I think they still talk about Mormons who died in the Holocaust because they posthumously converted many of the dead... Israel has told them to stop it several times but they still do it because they think that by claiming that famous person being "posthumously" converted into Mormonism will mean that they can brag about them. I've told this before but at some point Mormons came to Finland and took microfilm images of the Church records so that they could be used for these posthumous conversions and afterwards the microfilms were donated to the Church. People who study their ancestry in Finland are grateful for that last bit since it meant that we got free copies of historical documents at a time when no digital copies existed.

that's like ten kinds of immoral, right there.... wonder why it didn't make a bigger splash.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Even Then on November 13, 2015, 07:59:04 am
Wow, FUCK Mormons.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Nightangel8212 on November 13, 2015, 08:46:31 am
*Reads the latest responses and blinks slowly*

Um... I think I better talk to my dad... just so I can warn him to keep an eye on some of Maurice's behavior. Between the polygamy, the fucking weird origins, the cult-like behavior of asking members to distance themselves from non-believing members of the family... yeah, I'm starting to get a little concerned. I'm just hoping that his church isn't fundy... He doesn't seem bad so far, but then again, he was also once a member of a church that believed in laying hands on people to cure them of illnesses. I love my brother (well, as much as a sister can love a brother who's got a tendency to be a sanctimonious prick to her), but he's the kind of person who's easily suckered into shit like this, and it wouldn't surprise me if things got bad fast...
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: guizonde on November 13, 2015, 08:58:53 am
*Reads the latest responses and blinks slowly*

Um... I think I better talk to my dad... just so I can warn him to keep an eye on some of Maurice's behavior. Between the polygamy, the fucking weird origins, the cult-like behavior of asking members to distance themselves from non-believing members of the family... yeah, I'm starting to get a little concerned. I'm just hoping that his church isn't fundy... He doesn't seem bad so far, but then again, he was also once a member of a church that believed in laying hands on people to cure them of illnesses. I love my brother (well, as much as a sister can love a brother who's got a tendency to be a sanctimonious prick to her), but he's the kind of person who's easily suckered into shit like this, and it wouldn't surprise me if things got bad fast...

on the flipside, i'm friends with patrick f. bagley's son. he grew up in utah. he said that mormons are pretty trusting overall, and have got an altruist streak similar to quakers when they aren't fundy. i trust the guy's word for it. he's got that "won't tell a lie" vibe common to utah archetypal american old-school boys, too. my dad (thoroughbred yorkshireman) said that salt lake city was the only place on earth he saw shops living using the honor system: no cameras, no shopkeep, just a cash register and a word asking you to pay for what you take.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 13, 2015, 09:36:53 am
...weird posthumous conversion rituals.

Yeah, I think they still talk about Mormons who died in the Holocaust because they posthumously converted many of the dead... Israel has told them to stop it several times but they still do it because they think that by claiming that famous person being "posthumously" converted into Mormonism will mean that they can brag about them. I've told this before but at some point Mormons came to Finland and took microfilm images of the Church records so that they could be used for these posthumous conversions and afterwards the microfilms were donated to the Church. People who study their ancestry in Finland are grateful for that last bit since it meant that we got free copies of historical documents at a time when no digital copies existed.

that's like ten kinds of immoral, right there.... wonder why it didn't make a bigger splash.

Dunno how it is across the pond in France, but over here, Mormons are...kinda universally hated.  Like, moreso than Witnesses.  At least Witnesses don't do that kinda crazy ass shit, so that does earn them a few points in the public's eye.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: guizonde on November 13, 2015, 09:47:44 am
...weird posthumous conversion rituals.

Yeah, I think they still talk about Mormons who died in the Holocaust because they posthumously converted many of the dead... Israel has told them to stop it several times but they still do it because they think that by claiming that famous person being "posthumously" converted into Mormonism will mean that they can brag about them. I've told this before but at some point Mormons came to Finland and took microfilm images of the Church records so that they could be used for these posthumous conversions and afterwards the microfilms were donated to the Church. People who study their ancestry in Finland are grateful for that last bit since it meant that we got free copies of historical documents at a time when no digital copies existed.

that's like ten kinds of immoral, right there.... wonder why it didn't make a bigger splash.

Dunno how it is across the pond in France, but over here, Mormons are...kinda universally hated.  Like, moreso than Witnesses.  At least Witnesses don't do that kinda crazy ass shit, so that does earn them a few points in the public's eye.

uh, there's like, few mormons in france.... can't find any numbers, but since it's a really american church, most mormons stick to the usa. then again, we've got church of christ scientist (or whatever it's called), but it's more footnote worthy than a real presence, although in some of the bigger cities i hear they go door-to-door.
in france, the biggest target is jw's, hands down. no blood transfusions, no christmas, no going inside churches (den of the devil, and all that), and their "holier than thou" attitude just cement that reputation.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Stormwarden on November 13, 2015, 02:00:13 pm
Ex-LDS, so I can vouch for most of what has already been said.

The LDS is big on foreign missions, so they have missionaries all over the world. You see, every male member eventually joins the priesthood in order to go on these missions. By the by, they are NOT allowed to watch TV during this time, nor listen to any sort of media. I got out before I had to deal with any of that crap, though.

And between the "posthumous" conversions and their treatment of LGBT people, the LDS can go play chicken with a semi.

I hope your brother gets out, sooner than later, man. I really do. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Damen on November 13, 2015, 02:15:15 pm
I think the biggest ethical and moral objection I have to Mormons is the practice of posthumous conversion. That just hits me as wrong on such a visceral level that it is hard to even articulate.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Ironchew on November 13, 2015, 03:56:28 pm
Ahh, the minority religions. Y'know, the ones where everyone feels comfortable pointing out their crazy shit, but they'd never say a peep about the crazy shit the RCC is up to because they're culturally dominant.

So... yeah, just more curious than anything... what makes Mormons different?

I highly recommend listening to the Irreligiosophy podcast (http://www.irreligiosophy.com) for, among other things, a gleefully irreverent look into Mormonism from the perspective of an ex-FLDS host. (He's an atheist, so he's not going to exaggerate the badness of the LDS church to shill for another Christian denomination.) Of the episodes specifically dealing with Mormonism, I recommend "LDS Advice to Young Men" (http://www.irreligiosophy.com/podcasts/026_ldsmast.mp3), their summary of the Proposition 8 court battle (http://www.irreligiosophy.com/podcasts/083_prop8.mp3), Parts 1 (http://www.irreligiosophy.com/podcasts/2/007_fundies.mp3) and 2 (http://www.irreligiosophy.com/podcasts/2/008_fundies2.mp3) of their "Mormon Fundamentalism" series, and their take on Glenn Beck's "An Unlikely Mormon". (http://www.irreligiosophy.com/podcasts/003_beck.mp3)
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Sigmaleph on November 13, 2015, 04:13:54 pm
Ahh, the minority religions. Y'know, the ones where everyone feels comfortable pointing out their crazy shit, but they'd never say a peep about the crazy shit the RCC is up to because they're culturally dominant.

Fuck the Roman Catholic Church. There, happy?

*Reads the latest responses and blinks slowly*

Um... I think I better talk to my dad... just so I can warn him to keep an eye on some of Maurice's behavior. Between the polygamy, the fucking weird origins, the cult-like behavior of asking members to distance themselves from non-believing members of the family... yeah, I'm starting to get a little concerned. I'm just hoping that his church isn't fundy... He doesn't seem bad so far, but then again, he was also once a member of a church that believed in laying hands on people to cure them of illnesses. I love my brother (well, as much as a sister can love a brother who's got a tendency to be a sanctimonious prick to her), but he's the kind of person who's easily suckered into shit like this, and it wouldn't surprise me if things got bad fast...

To be fair, the polygamy is not a thing anymore in the main Mormon church, unlike offshoots like the FLDS.

...actually, just in case, check which kind of Mormon your brother became? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the main one, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the polygamous one.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Nightangel8212 on November 13, 2015, 08:39:18 pm
Well.... I had an interesting day... talked to my father about my brother's conversion and told him some of what I'd learned. He pretty much shrugged it off and said that the only thing he's seen them doing are running around and helping people who need to move, or who need errands run, and they go to church meetings and things like that. He said so far it's looking like it's just a church full of really nice, generous people... so it's looking like their moderates, which is good.

But then my father told me something that left me in a bit of a state of shock....

He told me that he doesn't know what is out there (in regards to God), only that he knows there is SOMETHING greater than all of us out there that he can't put a name to. It... just sort of shocked the hell out of me to hear my dad say something other than "There is only God" or something along those lines.

Anyway, roomie had a bad day today, but I'll probably start another thread in Confidential Confessions for that one...
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Random Gal on November 13, 2015, 09:06:06 pm
Ahh, the minority religions. Y'know, the ones where everyone feels comfortable pointing out their crazy shit, but they'd never say a peep about the crazy shit the RCC is up to because they're culturally dominant.

Oh? I've never been a fan of the Catholic Church, and even in my fundie days I was still very much a Protestant. I'll gladly call them out on their bullshit whenever it's necessary.

Notably, their idea of "the only right interpretation of God is the one held by the Church, and everybody who disagrees is going to Hell," the way they make their followers dependent on them and hold them emotionally hostage by requiring they confess everything they've done that doesn't agree with their rules, all the violence committed by them during the Crusades and the Inquisition, forcing native populations to conform to their rules, and the recent wave of child molestation scandals which the Church has systematically covered up.

There, I think that covers most of it.

Back on topic, have you ever wondered why Mormons have such an interest in genealogy? It's all about finding more names to add to their "retroactive Mormon" list. Once they figure out the names of your ancestors for you, they're going to go convert them.
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: guizonde on November 13, 2015, 09:19:15 pm
Back on topic, have you ever wondered why Mormons have such an interest in genealogy? It's all about finding more names to add to their "retroactive Mormon" list. Once they figure out the names of your ancestors for you, they're going to go convert them.

those bastards better leave my ancestry alone. i've got catholics, anglicans, a couple gallicans, and antitheists in my family. and that's only the ones i personnally know. none of whom would take it kindly to be converted to a heretical religion.

(yes, even for the antitheists. they've got their credo that religion is evil. ergo, getting converting becomes heretical to their tenets... i'm overthinking this, aren't i?)
Title: Re: So my brother converted.......
Post by: Ironchew on November 13, 2015, 09:30:22 pm
Back on topic, have you ever wondered why Mormons have such an interest in genealogy? It's all about finding more names to add to their "retroactive Mormon" list. Once they figure out the names of your ancestors for you, they're going to go convert them.

those bastards better leave my ancestry alone. i've got catholics, anglicans, a couple gallicans, and antitheists in my family. and that's only the ones i personnally know. none of whom would take it kindly to be converted to a heretical religion.

(yes, even for the antitheists. they've got their credo that religion is evil. ergo, getting converting becomes heretical to their tenets... i'm overthinking this, aren't i?)

Alternatively, they're dead so they don't care.

Once the Mormons figure out how to resurrect them, that'll get their attention.