Author Topic: More proof that Christianity is true.  (Read 14855 times)

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Offline Skybison

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2018, 01:55:33 pm »
No, the killer has to give proof that God ordered for the killing to happen.

Why should I believe the killers in the Old Testament had any proof?  All we have to go on is some books written long after the fact by their fan boys.

I don't see any reason not to think they were lying.

God is our creator so he obviously makes rules for his creation to follow. 

Why?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2018, 02:27:40 pm »
No, the killer has to give proof that God ordered for the killing to happen.

Why should I believe the killers in the Old Testament had any proof?  All we have to go on is some books written long after the fact by their fan boys.

I don't see any reason not to think they were lying.

Because the many proofs that Christianity is true proves that the Bible is true.

Quote
God is our creator so he obviously makes rules for his creation to follow. 

Why?

Because he’s our creator so he wants us to worship him and obey him.

Art Vandelay

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2018, 04:36:19 pm »
He gives humans free will. Unfortunately humans use their free will to commit sin. God is our creator so he obviously makes rules for his creation to follow. 
As we've been over before, that's a bullshit excuse. If he's all knowing, he knew full well what every last human to ever exist was going to do over the course of their lives, from the moment of creation. Not to mention, even if he didn't, he's perfectly capable of creating a rule set that doesn't involve genocide and mass torture solely for the crime of existing has he supposedly created as to exist in the first place.

Of course, it's all bullshit in the first place. Thinking this character is a good guy is one thing, believing he actually exists is a whole other level of retardation.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2018, 05:05:40 pm »
Because the many proofs that Christianity is true proves that the Bible is true.

Quote
proof
noun
evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement

You haven't done this, not with one of your annoying "proofs" at best you've presented arguments for the plausibility of some sections of the biblical record "proving that the Bible is true" would require establishing that the world was five thousand years old, that there was in fact a world wide flood, that the Exodus happened, that you could repeatedly and blatantly break the laws of conservation of mass and energy, that you could cure leprosy by fondling someone and that you could revive someone scourged, stabbed, starved, dehydrated and nailed on a cross to die and that the person could gain the powers of flight. The task of "proving" the "Bible is true" requires nothing more or less than establishing the fact of every single statement in that contradictory mass of fables, legends, laws and lineages. The task of proving Christianity true requires you to prove things that are impossible to prove like predictions of the future. You have not done any of these things, you can not do them as it is impossible.

No, the killer has to give proof that God ordered for the killing to happen.

Why should I believe the killers in the Old Testament had any proof?  All we have to go on is some books written long after the fact by their fan boys.

I don't see any reason not to think they were lying.

Because the many proofs that Christianity is true proves that the Bible is true.

Quote
God is our creator so he obviously makes rules for his creation to follow. 

Why?

Because he’s our creator so he wants us to worship him and obey him.
No mate, morality applies to all or it's worthless. At least admit that even if you don't agree with my statement that you won't convince anybody here, as evidenced by your utter failure to convince anybody with the same tired crap you keep piling on and no, you can't get us to by into your religion by sheer persistence. This isn't a Hollywood Rom Com.

Go back to your fetishes and fantasies, your missionary work is boring and pointless!

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2018, 07:07:33 pm »
He gives humans free will. Unfortunately humans use their free will to commit sin. God is our creator so he obviously makes rules for his creation to follow. 
As we've been over before, that's a bullshit excuse. If he's all knowing, he knew full well what every last human to ever exist was going to do over the course of their lives, from the moment of creation. Not to mention, even if he didn't, he's perfectly capable of creating a rule set that doesn't involve genocide and mass torture solely for the crime of existing has he supposedly created as to exist in the first place.

Of course, it's all bullshit in the first place. Thinking this character is a good guy is one thing, believing he actually exists is a whole other level of retardation.

But as I said before, God is omniscient by being beyond time meaning that he observes people making decisions which has no effect on people’s decisions. His rule set of the wages of sin being death is a fair rule, given that sin is a serious crime against God, making the genocide of the Canaanites justified.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2018, 07:12:43 pm »
Because the many proofs that Christianity is true proves that the Bible is true.

Quote
proof
noun
evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement

You haven't done this, not with one of your annoying "proofs" at best you've presented arguments for the plausibility of some sections of the biblical record "proving that the Bible is true" would require establishing that the world was five thousand years old, that there was in fact a world wide flood, that the Exodus happened, that you could repeatedly and blatantly break the laws of conservation of mass and energy, that you could cure leprosy by fondling someone and that you could revive someone scourged, stabbed, starved, dehydrated and nailed on a cross to die and that the person could gain the powers of flight. The task of "proving" the "Bible is true" requires nothing more or less than establishing the fact of every single statement in that contradictory mass of fables, legends, laws and lineages. The task of proving Christianity true requires you to prove things that are impossible to prove like predictions of the future. You have not done any of these things, you can not do them as it is impossible.
I gave many proofs that Jesus Christ is real as well as Christian miracles, thus proving Christianity, and the Bible.
Quote
No, the killer has to give proof that God ordered for the killing to happen.

Why should I believe the killers in the Old Testament had any proof?  All we have to go on is some books written long after the fact by their fan boys.

I don't see any reason not to think they were lying.

Because the many proofs that Christianity is true proves that the Bible is true.

Quote
God is our creator so he obviously makes rules for his creation to follow. 

Why?

Because he’s our creator so he wants us to worship him and obey him.
No mate, morality applies to all or it's worthless. At least admit that even if you don't agree with my statement that you won't convince anybody here, as evidenced by your utter failure to convince anybody with the same tired crap you keep piling on and no, you can't get us to by into your religion by sheer persistence. This isn't a Hollywood Rom Com.

Go back to your fetishes and fantasies, your missionary work is boring and pointless!

God’s moral system applies to all. Everyone’s a sinner which is why God sent his son to sacrifice himself to atone for our sins so that we can be saved if we confess our sins and have faith and do good works.

Art Vandelay

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2018, 07:23:52 pm »
But as I said before, God is omniscient by being beyond time meaning that he observes people making decisions which has no effect on people’s decisions. His rule set of the wages of sin being death is a fair rule, given that sin is a serious crime against God, making the genocide of the Canaanites justified.
As I said before, that's bullshit. Regardless of the specific mechanics of decision making, he created humans himself knowing full well the choices they would make, all while being perfectly able to have create them differently, should he prefer they make a different set of choices. That means he's responsible for everything humans do. "It's different because free will" ain't gonna fly. Furthermore, the concept of sin is completely arbitrary. It's nothing more than "I'm going to kill and torture you because I want to and it's totally fine and dandy because I say it is". If it's bullshit when, say Pinnochet does it, it's no different for your magical space wizard.

Of course, God could be the most perfect example of morality in literature and it wouldn't make him not be fictional. So, this whole line of inquiry is completely unnecessary.

Offline dpareja

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2018, 07:30:22 pm »
How can a finite being, whose actions have finite effects, sin meaningfully against an infinite being?
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2018, 07:43:46 pm »
But as I said before, God is omniscient by being beyond time meaning that he observes people making decisions which has no effect on people’s decisions. His rule set of the wages of sin being death is a fair rule, given that sin is a serious crime against God, making the genocide of the Canaanites justified.
As I said before, that's bullshit. Regardless of the specific mechanics of decision making, he created humans himself knowing full well the choices they would make, all while being perfectly able to have create them differently, should he prefer they make a different set of choices. That means he's responsible for everything humans do. "It's different because free will" ain't gonna fly. Furthermore, the concept of sin is completely arbitrary. It's nothing more than "I'm going to kill and torture you because I want to and it's totally fine and dandy because I say it is". If it's bullshit when, say Pinnochet does it, it's no different for your magical space wizard.

Of course, God could be the most perfect example of morality in literature and it wouldn't make him not be fictional. So, this whole line of inquiry is completely unnecessary.

But him interfering with the choices people make would be interfering with their free will. The concept of sin is not arbitrary. Sin is an act of disobedience towards God.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2018, 07:45:58 pm »
How can a finite being, whose actions have finite effects, sin meaningfully against an infinite being?

Because it is an infinite offense to disobey the laws of an infinite being who is our creator.

Art Vandelay

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2018, 08:01:56 pm »
But him interfering with the choices people make would be interfering with their free will. The concept of sin is not arbitrary. Sin is an act of disobedience towards God.
Taking this bullshit seriously is an act of disobedience towards reality.

Offline dpareja

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2018, 08:32:17 pm »
How can a finite being, whose actions have finite effects, sin meaningfully against an infinite being?

Because it is an infinite offense to disobey the laws of an infinite being who is our creator.

Divine command theory at its finest.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2018, 01:46:30 am »
How can a finite being, whose actions have finite effects, sin meaningfully against an infinite being?

Because it is an infinite offense to disobey the laws of an infinite being who is our creator.

Divine command theory at its finest.

Nice summary of that here:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlETz4b40yU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlETz4b40yU</a>

Cliff notes version, how do we define good? Is something good because God says it is, or is it good because it's good? Jacob holds that good is defined by God saying something is good but that position only leads to absurdities because when God orders, commits or condones acts like murder, rape and torture, as happened many times in the bible, we're left with a dilemma. We can either judge these acts as evil or judge "good" as something entirely separate from having good intentions or committing good deeds rendering the term "good" meaningless.

A possible out is if we separate the terms piety from good, if we interpret piety as simply something a god or gods like or want but then we're still left with the conclusion that piety isn't necessarily good.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2018, 07:30:44 am »
How can a finite being, whose actions have finite effects, sin meaningfully against an infinite being?

Because it is an infinite offense to disobey the laws of an infinite being who is our creator.

Divine command theory at its finest.

Nice summary of that here:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlETz4b40yU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlETz4b40yU</a>

Cliff notes version, how do we define good? Is something good because God says it is, or is it good because it's good? Jacob holds that good is defined by God saying something is good but that position only leads to absurdities because when God orders, commits or condones acts like murder, rape and torture, as happened many times in the bible, we're left with a dilemma. We can either judge these acts as evil or judge "good" as something entirely separate from having good intentions or committing good deeds rendering the term "good" meaningless.

A possible out is if we separate the terms piety from good, if we interpret piety as simply something a god or gods like or want but then we're still left with the conclusion that piety isn't necessarily good.

Good is defined by whether there is a rational reason why it is good. God gives rational justified reasons for his actions.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 08:11:36 am by Jacob Harrison »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2018, 04:55:48 pm »
Good is defined by whether there is a rational reason why it is good. God gives rational justified reasons for his actions.

OK, so you subscribe to natural law-or maybe you just do when divine command theory inevitably starts popping out absurdities. Lets have a look at one of your favourite genocides from the bible, the great flood and the stated reason for it.

Quote
6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Note he's not just talking about humans, he's talking about bunny rabbits, cows, molluscs and let's not forget all those unborn children (violent, violent unborn children). Because there are a few violent douches douching around Yahweh will violently douche on everything but Noah's floating zoo.

Yes he gives a reason, no it is not rational or justified. It makes no sense to combat the existence of violence with greater violence that does more lasting harm.

In Genesis 32:25 God enters a wrestling match with Jacob and loses so he uses magic to break his leg. Now you could argue in a sense that's rational, if all you want to do is show you can win but it's not justified - wrestling is matching ability and skill and cheating just shows you're a dirty, rotten cheater. In Exodus 9:16 God tells the pharaoh that he put him there just to show him his power. Rational? You have literally infinite power and resources, is raising up a dynasty just to bring it down the most rational way to go about this? Why not just do the Jesus trick and pop out some Merlot and mudskipper from thin air? Justified? Come on, set aside all the plagues, misery, dismembered cattle, fermenting frogs and dying children and just make Moses pharaoh-get the other guy to be chamberlain of the royal stool or something!

Unless you're defaulting back to divine command theory and calling it rational and justified because it comes from the creator and therefore in must be, blah blah blah it isn't possible to call all of the actions of a notoriously jealous and wrathful deity both justified and rational. Unless of course you're just here to troll, and you enjoying defending perversity merely to annoy. The thought has crossed my mind...