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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Joey on April 07, 2013, 06:32:46 pm

Title: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Joey on April 07, 2013, 06:32:46 pm
The practice of keeping nudity taboo in society has its roots in religion, and as far as I know, religion only. So I often wonder, if we are truly a secular society, why is public nudity still considered taboo and why is it still criminalized? If Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, then why do we as a society continue to criminalize something that is only taboo because religions say it is?

Animals of all other kinds don't create elaborate clothing systems to cover up their parts. The young grow up in full nudity and from birth observe the full nudity of their peers, and yet don't develop any psychological problems as a result. They don't even think twice about it.

Now, If you took a kid or adolescent today and suddenly stuck them into a nudist society they would be shocked, and may develop psychological problems as a result. But that is because they were conditioned to believe something - that nudity is evil / sinful / shameful /etc - and then suddenly placed in an environment that ran completely contradictory to their conditioning. It's this confusion that brings about psychological problems, not the nudity itself.  I posit that in a society in which everyone was raised from birth to not be conditioned against nudity, no adverse problems would come as a result.

Sure, there are many pragmatic reasons to wear clothing, such as to protect against the elements, or sport your favorite brand. But these aren't reasons to criminalize the lack of doing so if one chooses.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 07, 2013, 06:39:19 pm
I don't really care one way or the other about nudism, but once I was at a fair and saw a bunch of people handing out advertisements for a nudist community. They were all wearing clothes though, because it was fucking raining that day.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Auggziliary on April 07, 2013, 06:46:39 pm
To be fair, most animals have fur or feathers or scales. And we don't really know if they feel self conscious or something because of it, since all we get are squaks and barks.

I don't really feel a certain way about it, other than it would be fun to be naked, yet I love wearing clothes cuz fashion is fun for me.

What about people who wear clothes to hide zits or their weight?
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Witchyjoshy on April 07, 2013, 06:51:55 pm
We invented clothes to protect our squishy, freezable, burnable skin against the elements.

I think it was less a case of religion inventing the need to wear clothes, and more so the idea of after generations of wearing hides to keep one's bits from freezing off, it became weird to see anyone without those hides.

And one aspect of human nature is "Weird is BAD!"

Then it worked its way into religion no doubt.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Auggziliary on April 07, 2013, 06:52:59 pm
Also showing off wealth. Like silks and jewelry and such.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Random Gal on April 07, 2013, 06:53:54 pm
I'll occasionally go naked at home when it's more comfortable to do so. There's nothing wrong with a naked body.

The real problem is that most people inherently associate nudity with sex. That is, it's normal to be clothed unless there is a specific reason not to be clothed, and the only reasons not to be clothed are bathing, changing clothes, and sex. So if someone is naked and not either bathing or changing clothes, they must be doing something sexual.

I don't think the nudity=sex connection has to be derived from religion, though. Religion probably contributes to the nudity taboo via "Sex is wrong, and nudity=sex, so nudity is wrong"
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Joey on April 07, 2013, 07:00:03 pm
And one aspect of human nature is "Weird is BAD!"

That's essentially what I was getting at. Is it necessarily a good thing to embrace that mindset?
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Auggziliary on April 07, 2013, 07:00:42 pm
What Random Guy said. That's another reason why many view women who dress "scantily" as "sluts".
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Joey on April 07, 2013, 07:03:26 pm
Yeah, but the idea that sex is taboo is also derived from religion. So even if nudity is always associated with sex, in a secular society, that shouldn't necessarily make nudity taboo.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Witchyjoshy on April 07, 2013, 07:05:38 pm
And one aspect of human nature is "Weird is BAD!"

That's essentially what I was getting at. Is it necessarily a good thing to embrace that mindset?

Not at all.  While we still have our instincts that tell us one thing or another, instincts aren't always the most reliable way to make decisions.  In fact, more often than not they aren't.

That being said, human nature is the hardest thing to change.  It's easier to change "what is weird" than it is to change "weird is bad".
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Auggziliary on April 07, 2013, 07:10:34 pm
Yeah, but the idea that sex is taboo is also derived from religion. So even if nudity is always associated with sex, in a secular society, that shouldn't necessarily make nudity taboo.

I don't think it's necessarily from religion. It can come from sexism too.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: JohnE on April 07, 2013, 10:08:55 pm
The real problem is that most people inherently associate nudity with sex.
Yup. That's basically the problem right there. It's why people associate nudism with things like swinging, exhibitionism, and other sexual lifestyles/fetishes. They get confused and outraged at the thought of families being nude together or children being nude at all, because they can't fathom nudity being non-sexual.

On the other hand, I do find it kind of silly how many nudists are so insistent that there's nothing sexual about nudity at all, not even a little bit, but at the same time, some nudist groups have very strict rules about not even glancing at other people's bits. Seems pretty contradictory to me.

That said, our society is WAY too hung up on nudity, and I'd like to see the laws on indecent exposure relaxed quite a bit. I don't think people ought to be showing up to work nude or anything, but there are times and places where it is (or should be) appropriate.

Tell you the truth, I'm somewhat interested in nudism myself.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Scotsgit on April 07, 2013, 11:55:42 pm
The early naturist movement contained a lot of religious types, many saw it as getting back to the time of Adam and Eve which they saw as a more innocent and pure time.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Sylvana on April 08, 2013, 02:49:59 am
I think we have managed to nail down the reasons behind humans wearing clothing and why we as a society have a knee jerk reaction to nudity.
Even amongst secular people someone being nude will cause a noticeable reaction simply because it is considered extremely unusual. Add to the fact that society has sexualized breasts and genitals and created a thought pattern where any time such body parts are shown is sexualized.

That said, I am grateful for clothing. There are many people I would really not wish to see naked. Seeing them squeeze into clothing that is 2 sizes too small is horrific enough.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: mellenORL on April 08, 2013, 02:15:53 pm
I think we have managed to nail down the reasons behind humans wearing clothing and why we as a society have a knee jerk reaction to nudity.
Even amongst secular people someone being nude will cause a noticeable reaction simply because it is considered extremely unusual. Add to the fact that society has sexualized breasts and genitals and created a thought pattern where any time such body parts are shown is sexualized.

That said, I am grateful for clothing. There are many people I would really not wish to see naked. Seeing them squeeze into clothing that is 2 sizes too small is horrific enough.

So true, but I think if nudity was the norm - weather permitting, obviously- people would be more likely to exercise and care about how much they eat, if they lacked the requirement of clothing to hide under. Also, even those whose medical or physical conditions mean they cannot maintain a normative body type would at least have healthier skin from the exposure to fresh air and sunlight, and I doubt they would be stared at any more than they are now with clothing required by all.

Yeah, the thought of seeing a bunch of "People of Walmart" examples prancing about nude is horrific...but maybe fewer such visions of unloveliness would exist in a nudist world.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: R. U. Sirius on April 08, 2013, 02:24:10 pm
Just because no discussion of nudism would be complete without them, I shall now share giant boobies with the board.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Flying Mint Bunny! on April 08, 2013, 02:42:40 pm
I agree that laws on nudism should be relaxed and there should be more nudist areas for people who want them, but I don't really like the idea of there being lots of nudists around all the time. As well as the points that have been mentioned already, it just doesn't seem very hygienic.

Imagine being on a packed bus/tube/train with loads of nudists, or nudists sitting on public benches and ruining them for everyone else with their sweaty fucking arses. It just seems nasty to me.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: JohnE on April 08, 2013, 03:07:13 pm
I think we have managed to nail down the reasons behind humans wearing clothing and why we as a society have a knee jerk reaction to nudity.
Even amongst secular people someone being nude will cause a noticeable reaction simply because it is considered extremely unusual. Add to the fact that society has sexualized breasts and genitals and created a thought pattern where any time such body parts are shown is sexualized.

That said, I am grateful for clothing. There are many people I would really not wish to see naked. Seeing them squeeze into clothing that is 2 sizes too small is horrific enough.

So true, but I think if nudity was the norm - weather permitting, obviously- people would be more likely to exercise and care about how much they eat, if they lacked the requirement of clothing to hide under. Also, even those whose medical or physical conditions mean they cannot maintain a normative body type would at least have healthier skin from the exposure to fresh air and sunlight, and I doubt they would be stared at any more than they are now with clothing required by all.

Yeah, the thought of seeing a bunch of "People of Walmart" examples prancing about nude is horrific...but maybe fewer such visions of unloveliness would exist in a nudist world.
I think you're both missing the point, somewhat. Nudists are all sorts of shapes and sizes, including old, fat, hairy, bad skinned, etc. But when nudity is common place, those sorts of things cease to be repulsive or even attention-grabbing. It just becomes part of what people look like. I've read (anecdotal evidence from nudism websites, so add salt to taste) that children who grow up in nudist culture have fewer hang-ups about body image, because they have a more accurate perception of what real people look like.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Cerim Treascair on April 08, 2013, 05:42:06 pm
I like being a nudist... in the privacy of my own home, or around my friends that really don't care what I look like.  That being said? I have self-image issues due to my weight and generally bear-ish look (translation:  I'm pretty furry.  I don't like the fact I am) so while I wouldn't stop anybody that was wanting to do so... I don't think I'd be there with them.  I look terrible, I know it, and I wouldn't want to inflict that on anyone else.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: MadCatTLX on April 08, 2013, 05:56:48 pm
(translation:  I'm pretty furry.  I don't like the fact I am)

How long are your pubes? What? I felt like asking.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Joey on April 08, 2013, 05:59:52 pm
The real question is, does the carpet match the drapes?

(In a nudist society, you'd never have to ask!)
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Cerim Treascair on April 08, 2013, 06:15:19 pm
(translation:  I'm pretty furry.  I don't like the fact I am)

How long are your pubes? What? I felt like asking.

I try to keep those trimmed.  If I can be neat and trim where I can reach with a razor, I do so.  Triple blades are my friend.  And that's the last I'll say on the subject.  If you want to ask anything further, PM me.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Søren on April 08, 2013, 07:12:43 pm
I wish I could be nude more often. as of now i can only do it around my partner
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: JohnE on April 08, 2013, 10:47:48 pm
I wish I could be nude more often. as of now i can only do it around my partner
We can be the first members of the FSTDT nudist commune.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Sleepy on April 08, 2013, 11:22:47 pm
I agree that some indecent exposure laws should be less strict, but I don't think nudism is very practical overall. Public transport would get disgusting (and potentially dangerous), women on their period wouldn't exactly feel comfortable or clean, and the elderly might feel more embarrassed if they have to wear certain medical devices. That's just a couple reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: nickiknack on April 09, 2013, 12:12:19 am
I agree that some indecent exposure laws should be less strict, but I don't think nudism is very practical overall. Public transport would get disgusting (and potentially dangerous), women on their period wouldn't exactly feel comfortable or clean, and the elderly might feel more embarrassed if they have to wear certain medical devices. That's just a couple reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more.
Not just women, I don't think most people would want blood all over the place. Also if you live in colder climates, it's kinda dumb to go without any clothes on.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on April 09, 2013, 12:49:28 am
I agree that some indecent exposure laws should be less strict, but I don't think nudism is very practical overall. Public transport would get disgusting (and potentially dangerous), women on their period wouldn't exactly feel comfortable or clean, and the elderly might feel more embarrassed if they have to wear certain medical devices. That's just a couple reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more.
Not just women, I don't think most people would want blood all over the place. Also if you live in colder climates, it's kinda dumb to go without any clothes on.

This reminds me of GTA III with the overzealous nudist and Lazlo asking "What about winter?" :P
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Distind on April 09, 2013, 01:12:15 pm
I wish I could be nude more often. as of now i can only do it around my partner
We can be the first members of the FSTDT nudist commune.

Legal Disclaimer:
FSTDT in no way supports or condones it's members nudity.

Personally, I like clothes, they're warm. I also live where it gets pretty cold.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: mellenORL on April 09, 2013, 01:38:56 pm
I know - how about just topless option for all, weather permitting. No butt sweat or period spots on the seats, and colostomy bags and catheters and insulin pumps can be covered up that way.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Distind on April 09, 2013, 01:42:55 pm
I know - how about just topless option for all, weather permitting. No butt sweat or period spots on the seats, and colostomy bags and catheters and insulin pumps can be covered up that way.
Wow, I know it'd been mentioned before, but nudism would probably put an end to my use of public transportation. I'd just see ass sweat everywhere.

But notably, that's more or less legal in NY now, there's a boob walk/flash thing yearly just to celebrate the court case that laid it down.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: mellenORL on April 09, 2013, 03:40:19 pm
I actually accidently sat in a minor lake of ass sweat once riding the bus back in ATL one August day. The gal who left the (only available) seat just before was fully clothed...in spandex. So, No poly or nylon or w/e lets sweat just run right through the weave in my topless option world scenario. And thumbs up to New York. That was a nice move. A girl can get a heat rash from wearing a bra and top on the hotter days, ya know? Itchy red sweaty boobies are no fun!
:P
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: chitoryu12 on April 10, 2013, 02:39:53 am
I know - how about just topless option for all, weather permitting. No butt sweat or period spots on the seats, and colostomy bags and catheters and insulin pumps can be covered up that way.
Wow, I know it'd been mentioned before, but nudism would probably put an end to my use of public transportation. I'd just see ass sweat everywhere.

But notably, that's more or less legal in NY now, there's a boob walk/flash thing yearly just to celebrate the court case that laid it down.

Well, I don't think New York would really notice naked breasts at this point. It's hard to get them to notice ANYTHING unusual without actively attacking them.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Her3tiK on April 10, 2013, 03:22:08 am
I don't understand the hangup, personally. At least, not amongst my like-minded peers; the cultural/religious sticking point makes sense, even if it's rather dumb. Hell, I've tried to have a b-day party at a nudist beach before, but absolutely nobody else was willing to do it (and yes, I made an effort to invite a number of my guy friends).

At the very least, I see no reason why women can't go around shirtless if they choose to do so.
Title: Re: Nudism: A serious discussion
Post by: Distind on April 10, 2013, 11:37:02 am
Well, I don't think New York would really notice naked breasts at this point. It's hard to get them to notice ANYTHING unusual without actively attacking them.
I mean the whole state, including rather staunchly republican areas. It's kinda funny because every few years someone finds out about the flash, freaks out, and everyone who has been paying attention just laughs at them.