Author Topic: Victim of bullying finally wins  (Read 29318 times)

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Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2012, 04:29:39 pm »
If schools actually dealt with bullies like they were suppose to, the death most like wouldn't not have happened.
If you read the article, you'd know the bullying primarily happened at their school bus stop, not actually anywhere near the school.

Bus stops and busses count as school property and are under the school's jurisdiction.

Offline Kit Walker

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2012, 05:07:37 pm »
Bus stops and busses count as school property and are under the school's jurisdiction.

But there are no school personnel there to enforce any kind of rules, report an incident to, witness an incident, etc. Once you go back to the school the next day and report it, it becomes a your-word-against-theirs situation. A situation where the only recourse the school has is (because the school has no way of accurately determining which side is telling the whole truth) is to punish both people. I stand by the idea that there isn't much the school can do, short of following the kids home.

Vene: And I disagree with the judge. This is was a school bully in suburbia, not a bar fight with the hell's angels. Unless the kids involved were true sociopaths, I doubt the kid would have ended up with even a broken bone. I don't view taking someone's life as the appropriate response to being roughed up a bit.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2012, 05:27:37 pm »
All death is a tragedy. But some deaths are more tragic than others. If, as the judge holds, Saavedra was at risk of death himself, then he did the right thing.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2012, 05:44:19 pm »
Vene: And I disagree with the judge. This is was a school bully in suburbia, not a bar fight with the hell's angels.

You severely underestimate the harm that bullies can and DO cause to children.
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Offline DasFuchs

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2012, 05:58:57 pm »
That said, I have no sympathy for the bully. I've been bullied often in school, and all I can say is "Garbage in, garbage out."

So people who are dicks in high school deserve to die, is what you're saying? I was bullied all through elementary school, still have social anxiety issues from/exacerbated by it, and no one deserves what this bully got. He had a family, friends, people who loved him. This is isn't a Stephen King novel, where the bullies are sociopaths who do things for teh evulz. He was a human being, and a kid (high school is old enough to understand right and wrong, but necessarily not shit like long term consequences)

This story just makes me uncomfortable. It sucks to be bullied, it is emotionally damaging far beyond the direct action...but this kid met an unarmed attacker with lethal force and murderous rage. And now he gets off completely scott free, not even a court appointed psychologist. What happens when a bullied kid brings a gun to school with him for self defense? What happens when a kid in a similar position decides he's had enough and doesn't wait to be attacked? It bugs me.

If schools actually dealt with bullies like they were suppose to, the death most like wouldn't not have happened.
If you read the article, you'd know the bullying primarily happened at their school bus stop, not actually anywhere near the school.

Uh, no, it happened on and off the bus, according to the article.
This went on for a long period of time. The kid was bullied to the extent he was doing all he could to avoid these pricks. After being threatened and assaulted, he struck back with a knife because three guys bigger than him were threatening to harm him, and given the punches to the back of the head, doing and outstanding job. I commend the kid for holding back as long as he did, till he had no other option. Stabbed the kid once and kept getting hit so he kept stabbing.
Tell me, what kind of punishment should the kid get for defending his life? What does that teach him? "Well, your life comes after others when they beat the hell out of you. You best be dead, then you can defend your life"?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:02:46 pm by DasFuchs »
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Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2012, 06:03:17 pm »
Does the kid have be dead before he can defend himself? Does have to have a broken limb? Bullies are capable of going to those extents, Kit.

Obviously it's a tragedy. Ideally the bully should have lived. No one is celebrating the death. What people are saying is that it was a justifiable form of defense. The victim felt his life was threaten.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 06:08:28 pm »
Well glad you guys aren't doing in this topic what a few guys at the Allspark are doing.

Ironbite-which is condoning the kid who did it and saying there were other ways.

Offline Jack Mann

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2012, 06:16:36 pm »
Well glad you guys aren't doing in this topic what a few guys at the Allspark are doing.

Ironbite-which is condoning the kid who did it and saying there were other ways.

Do you mean condemning?
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Offline Kit Walker

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2012, 06:17:56 pm »
Tell me, what kind of punishment should the kid get for defending his life? What does that teach him? "Well, your life comes after others when they beat the hell out of you. You best be dead, then you can defend your life"?

Fucking psychological counseling, court appointed and monitored. He flew into a rage (motivated by self defense, but 12 stab wounds - two fatal, including a nick to the heart - doesn't scream "in control") and killed another human being. He met force with an escalation of force. Letting him off without so much as "here see a shrink" sends the message "if you're being bullied at school, kill that mother fucker, no questions asked".
Does the kid have be dead before he can defend himself? Does have to have a broken limb? Bullies are capable of going to those extents, Kit.
Some are, yes. There are always sociopaths and sadists out there. But it seems to me that the vast majority of school age harassment and bullying comes from alpha male macho bullshit, not homicidal tendencies.

Quote
Obviously it's a tragedy. Ideally the bully should have lived. No one is celebrating the death. What people are saying is that it was a justifiable form of defense. The victim felt his life was threaten.

Bullshit! Reread the title of this fucking thread! Reread the OP! Reread the post I initially quoted! This kid "won"! He killed "garbage", a "scum bag", did the world a favor! That's not disturbing in the least to you? A god damned seventeen year old is dead because he was a total asshole...in high school. That's not cause for celebration.

And not for nothing, but my friend has a $10 thing of pepper spray that fits on her key chain. While he had every right to defend himself, going all stabbity was not his only nor was it his best option.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2012, 06:25:11 pm »
He flew into a rage (motivated by self defense, but 12 stab wounds - two fatal, including a nick to the heart - doesn't scream "in control")

Uh...

Dude, the bully was BEATING HIM AT THE TIME.

As in, continuing to swing punches.

At that point, it was "stab until it stops or be beaten until YOU stop"

What the fuck dude?

As for your insane windmill problem with the title, have you been living under a rock!?

In this country, victims of bullies have been consistently been blamed for BEING bullied.  Being expelled from school for shoving away the bully beating them to a pulp, while said bully gets a three day vacation from school in the form of a suspension.

The victory isn't him killing the bully, the victory is the fact that the victim, for once, DIDN'T GET FUCKING BLAMED.

Now, get the fuck off of your tin high horse, bucko.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:27:43 pm by Zachski »
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2012, 06:27:19 pm »
Clearly the attack was in self-defence. But no child should ever be put in a position where they must cause serious harm or death to prevent serious harm to themselves. Forget the school, where were the police?
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Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2012, 06:32:28 pm »
Bus stops and busses count as school property and are under the school's jurisdiction.

But there are no school personnel there to enforce any kind of rules, report an incident to, witness an incident, etc.

Bus drivers are considered school personnel. There can also be security cameras on the buses to at least determine who talked to whom. Even then, it doesn't matter. It's still a school matter, and just because a teacher isn't there doesn't mean it isn't their prerogative to provide a safe environment for their students. If a teacher needs to be an eyewitness, then we might as well give up anti-bullying policies right now. The entire point of bullying is to go as far as you can without being stopped, and having a teacher see you defeats that purpose.

Tell me, what kind of punishment should the kid get for defending his life? What does that teach him? "Well, your life comes after others when they beat the hell out of you. You best be dead, then you can defend your life"?

Fucking psychological counseling, court appointed and monitored. He flew into a rage (motivated by self defense, but 12 stab wounds - two fatal, including a nick to the heart - doesn't scream "in control") and killed another human being. He met force with an escalation of force. Letting him off without so much as "here see a shrink" sends the message "if you're being bullied at school, kill that mother fucker, no questions asked".

No, it says, "If you are in fear of your life, you are allowed to defend yourself with lethal force." If you take issue with that, that's another issue entirely, but to say he can't because he's a child is stupid.

And not for nothing, but my friend has a $10 thing of pepper spray that fits on her key chain. While he had every right to defend himself, going all stabbity was not his only nor was it his best option.

It is more legal to carry a knife than pepper spray. At my school, every sort of weapon was illegal, including pepper spray and mace. You could carry a knife if it was smaller than the palm of your hand. For him, that was the only option.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:39:36 pm by Smurfette Principle »

Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2012, 06:36:00 pm »
Quote
Obviously it's a tragedy. Ideally the bully should have lived. No one is celebrating the death. What people are saying is that it was a justifiable form of defense. The victim felt his life was threaten.

Bullshit! Reread the title of this fucking thread! Reread the OP! Reread the post I initially quoted! This kid "won"! He killed "garbage", a "scum bag", did the world a favor! That's not disturbing in the least to you? A god damned seventeen year old is dead because he was a total asshole...in high school. That's not cause for celebration.


Here I'll let others tell it you:

The victory isn't him killing the bully, the victory is the fact that the victim, for once, DIDN'T GET FUCKING BLAMED.

There were several people who said that the killing was a tragedy. I don't know where you come off claiming we all celebrated it. If you have beef with the tone of the OP then take it with him. (and I didn't think he was celebrating it - more like he saying there is a message that bullying will not be tolerated it.)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:38:27 pm by gyeonghwa »
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Offline sandman

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2012, 06:37:13 pm »
What I find most astonishing is that in total defiance of all the testimony and evidence to the contrary, the deceased's friends and family continue to insist that he was not a bully. If systematically taunting another student, following him off the bus, punching him in the back of the head, getting your friends to surround him, and then proceeding to beat the shit out of him for no reason isn't "bullying," then what is?

I was a bully in school. Gonna admit it right off the bat. Came from the side of Inverness you don't want to be from if money is something you find desirable, and in Scotland the divisions in school have always been economic. I was a big lad, 6 foot on my 13th birthday, with big hands and my first 'stache sprouted in 7th grade. People just assumed I was a bully, and so a bully I became, mostly out of anger, jealousy, and a burning embarrassment at being so much larger than the other kids. (Hell, I was bigger than most of the teachers.) I figured "bully" was a better label than "victim," and "Beinn" was a better nickname than "fatty." I wised up eventually, realized what an utter cock I was being to a great many people, and I cut the shit out.

Not every bully deserves death. Most are just screwed up kids that will, in time, straighten the hell up.


Quick edit: "Beinn" is a school nickname I will NOT abide being called now. Beinn was an asshole and an utter dick, and I am not that person anymore. Just a quick FYI. I prefer the nickname I had in the BAF: "Kilderkin."
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:52:30 pm by sandman »
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Offline Auri-El

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2012, 06:44:06 pm »
Horrible all around. I think something should've been done before it escalated to that point. But I don't blame the kid. @Kit, of course he wasn't in control. He was most likely terrified, high on adrenaline, with no way out. And when even when he stabbed the bully, it didn't stop. Of course he lost control, and it's horrid. But in the same situation, I think most people would've reacted the same way.  The only thing he needs a shrink for, imo, is to deal with any potential guilt over killing another person.