Stubenville & Maryville....Why Can't We Get Justice?

[Barbarella]

I'm disheartened by the injustices in these and similar cases. I don't get it. No matter how great the outcry, no matter how great the effort to whistle-blow and undo the injustice, nothing is done. A hacker for Anonymous is getting 10 years in the can while the rapists get a slap on the wrist.

It used to be that, when something horrible happened, be it racial injustice, natural disaster or kidnapping/murder of kids or other things, there were protests and something was done! Civil Rights movements emerged, new organizations founded, new trends emerged, people or things changed. Something was done!

But now, no matter the protests, these young ladies will never see their attackers punished. Why is it so hard to do the obvious? What is it that we supporters of these wronged girls are doing wrong? It can't be that hard, I mean, LGBT Rights is growing by leaps and bounds yet women can't even get an obvious & easy conviction for an obvious and horrific crime.

Why is it so hard?

Sandy Hook Shootings....nothing was done.

Girls Raped....Shamed by stupid local yokels and nothing was done.

Trayvon Martin murdered....Nothing was done & his killer walks scot-free and apparently has Teflon powers that ward off bad karma.

I know that in many case, there are folks in high places obstructing justice but that's no excuse! They can be spoken out against & compromised! Progressives have done so before and changes have been done in the past. Why not now, when the Far-Right is finally falling apart. The "Rich Owning Everything" is but an illusion! Billionaires pumped tons of buck into preventing Obama's second term and nothing to show for it!

If We The People can overcome corrupt CEOs with gazillions of smackers & re-elect Obama why can't we get justice for some rape victims from a few local bigshots who only have big influence in their part of their states.

Now, I'm overjoyed by the great progress made by the LGBTs in the USA but am baffled by why it's so hard for women & people of color to make equally vast strides. Being female doesn't have the "weird" factor that being LGBT once did, why can women, girls, feminism, femaleness get ahead by leaps and bounds. Are we forgotten? Do people think se3xism is dead & women's rights no longer needed?

I just don't get it. I don't get it at all. If anyone has both theories & possible answers to the problem it would be great.

[Witchyjoshy]

Do people think sexism is dead & women's rights no longer needed?

Yep.  If anything, people seem to believe that women have too MANY rights.

They see rape cases as women predating on men's sexual desire and then turning around and punishing them for it.  They don't believe "rape" is as bad as it actually is, or that people who are raped are being irresponsible.  They also seem to believe that actual rape cases are far fewer than what is reported.

Why?  Because they are men who don't have to worry about being raped, or they were brainwashed by men into believing that if they're responsible enough, they don't have to worry about being raped.

At least that's my perspective on things.  I may not necessarily have to worry about being raped as much as a woman does, and to be honest, I don't fully understand what it's like to be raped, either.  But I know I don't want to find out.

Okay, editing in a question right now:

Is a black man more likely to be convicted of rape than a white man?

[ironbite]

Especially if his alleged victim is a white girl.

[Barbarella]

Do people think sexism is dead & women's rights no longer needed?

Yep.  If anything, people seem to believe that women have too MANY rights.

They see rape cases as women predating on men's sexual desire and then turning around and punishing them for it.  They don't believe "rape" is as bad as it actually is, or that people who are raped are being irresponsible.  They also seem to believe that actual rape cases are far fewer than what is reported.

Why?  Because they are men who don't have to worry about being raped, or they were brainwashed by men into believing that if they're responsible enough, they don't have to worry about being raped.

At least that's my perspective on things.  I may not necessarily have to worry about being raped as much as a woman does, and to be honest, I don't fully understand what it's like to be raped, either.  But I know I don't want to find out.

Okay, editing in a question right now:

Is a black man more likely to be convicted of rape than a white man?

Do you think the outcry hasn't been as big as I thought it was? What I'm saying is is that I assumed there was a HUGE outcry in these rape cases. Was I wrong? Maybe my perception was wrong. Maybe the outcry wasn't as big as I thought. Most men can't possibly be into the rape culture, can they? If most men are good & decent and respect women, why don't they speak out?

Do you think that it's the Far-Right types impeding progress? If we voted out most of the nuts this year and got saner replacements, will things change for the better?

We say over and over "We need to educate people about rape, what it is and dispel the myths." Yet I have yet to be a bunch of programs, classes & such doing that! Why not? All talk & no action! Lazy! C'mon! Chop chop! START TEACHING! It's as easy as parents telling their sons "don't be a pig". If Dads won't do it, Moms can!

[Art Vandelay]

Do you think the outcry hasn't been as big as I thought it was? What I'm saying is is that I assumed there was a HUGE outcry in these rape cases. Was I wrong? Maybe my perception was wrong. Maybe the outcry wasn't as big as I thought. Most men can't possibly be into the rape culture, can they? If most men are good & decent and respect women, why don't they speak out?

The outcry was indeed rather big for a small-town event. I'll wager there's two reasons it failed. One, it was countered by most of the media, and not just Fox but also the more supposedly trustworthy channels. You remember the CNN report and the "it's so heartbreaking so see such promising young footballers have their careers cut short" schtick? Countered the outcry quite handily. Secondly, like pretty much every current issue, as soon as it was wrapped up and something new came along to piss everyone off, people just forgot about Steubenville.

I guess that's the biggest reason why the civil rights movement was a lot more effective than cases like Steubenville. The former was almost a decade of constant protests and pressure on lawmakers, the latter was largely forgotten almost as soon as the case was wrapped up. Activists these days seem to have a three second memory. As soon as an issue is "yesterday's news" they lose interest.

[Witchyjoshy]

Art pretty much has it right.

[Sleepy]

Yeah, I agree with Art. Combine that with the crappy economy we've dealt with for the past few years, and you have people who are going to pay much more attention to their own survival, rather than any social issues.

[I am lizard]

I'm disheartened by the injustices in these and similar cases. I don't get it. No matter how great the outcry, no matter how great the effort to whistle-blow and undo the injustice, nothing is done. A hacker for Anonymous is getting 10 years in the can while the rapists get a slap on the wrist.

It used to be that, when something horrible happened, be it racial injustice, natural disaster or kidnapping/murder of kids or other things, there were protests and something was done! Civil Rights movements emerged, new organizations founded, new trends emerged, people or things changed. Something was done!

But now, no matter the protests, these young ladies will never see their attackers punished. Why is it so hard to do the obvious? What is it that we supporters of these wronged girls are doing wrong? It can't be that hard, I mean, LGBT Rights is growing by leaps and bounds yet women can't even get an obvious & easy conviction for an obvious and horrific crime.

Why is it so hard?

Sandy Hook Shootings....nothing was done.

Girls Raped....Shamed by stupid local yokels and nothing was done.

Trayvon Martin murdered....Nothing was done & his killer walks scot-free and apparently has Teflon powers that ward off bad karma.

I know that in many case, there are folks in high places obstructing justice but that's no excuse! They can be spoken out against & compromised! Progressives have done so before and changes have been done in the past. Why not now, when the Far-Right is finally falling apart. The "Rich Owning Everything" is but an illusion! Billionaires pumped tons of buck into preventing Obama's second term and nothing to show for it!

If We The People can overcome corrupt CEOs with gazillions of smackers & re-elect Obama why can't we get justice for some rape victims from a few local bigshots who only have big influence in their part of their states.

Now, I'm overjoyed by the great progress made by the LGBTs in the USA but am baffled by why it's so hard for women & people of color to make equally vast strides. Being female doesn't have the "weird" factor that being LGBT once did, why can women, girls, feminism, femaleness get ahead by leaps and bounds. Are we forgotten? Do people think se3xism is dead & women's rights no longer needed?

I just don't get it. I don't get it at all. If anyone has both theories & possible answers to the problem it would be great.

Fuck everything.
That is all I have to say.

[Old Viking]

Art nailed it.  We have short memories.  Our outrage lasts until the next distraction comes along.

[Canadian Mojo]

Squirrel!

[R. U. Sirius]

I'd say the biggest reason is just that they picked a victim that nobody would care about. If they'd assaulted someone with money and connections, we would have seen them get tossed in prison faster than one of their fucking footballs.

It doesn't help matters when people undermine these real cases with false reports, like the Duke lacrosse scandal. I myself just finished fighting false charges of indecent exposure that were brought against me, but I can't help wondering if my victory will make the prosecution more hesitant to pursue legitimate cases in the future.

[Alehksunos]

I have two explanations to why our society has come to disregard rape as a crime:

• "RAPE MAKES LIFE!"
• "HAVING SEX MAKES ME A MAN, AND I NEED A FUCKING!"

I could be forgetting a few other things, but once again why are rape apologists so common these days?

[QueenofHearts]

I think it's more number two. We are a rape culture as much as we may not like to admit it. Between 1 in 6 and 1 in 3 women will be raped in their lifetimes. The fear of rape is a constant threat for women, so much so even women blame women for being raped. Even today, rape is one of the only crimes where society expects additional evidence. If a woman is raped, she has to prove she isn't being a vindictive bitch. If a man get's his wallet stolen, he doesn't have to prove he had a wallet beforehand. This goes to an innate cynicism society has of rape victims as "lying sluts." It's no wonder with our justice system, that rape is the most under reported of all crimes.

Then you take into account the male perspective; men are supposed to have sex, men are supposed to "woo" the lady and seduce her, and if that doesn't work "try harder and win her over." Men are taught to be aggressive socially, to be the proverbial "hunter" seeking out a mate. Men are conditioned to see women not as people, but as sex objects, and when consent isn't given, rape. Further, as we've seen here and elsewhere, men generally write off rape because "the man shouldn't have his life ruined over a mistake." Take all these into consideration, it's no wonder 99% of rapists are male.

I think a large part of the problem is that women are seen as inferior to men. A women putting up with emotional suffering from a rape isn't quite seen the same socially as a male suffering.

Long story short, I think the best way to solve this problem is to continue making in-roads to gender equality. Fact is, these stories coming out is a huge step forward, even though it doesn't seem it. Thirty years ago, the woman would be ignored by prosecutors, media, and would still go through this bullshit. At least now there is outrage and pressure is being put on these systems to change. No city wants the kind of public notoriety Stubenville and Maryville got, and hopefully that will start making cities avoid letting these rapists off the hook.

And before anyone cries about my use of Men, yes, clearly not all men, but a considerable number. Sit in a college class discussing rape and see how many men give the guy every benefit of the doubt imaginable.

[Barbarella]

Do you think the outcry hasn't been as big as I thought it was? What I'm saying is is that I assumed there was a HUGE outcry in these rape cases. Was I wrong? Maybe my perception was wrong. Maybe the outcry wasn't as big as I thought. Most men can't possibly be into the rape culture, can they? If most men are good & decent and respect women, why don't they speak out?

The outcry was indeed rather big for a small-town event. I'll wager there's two reasons it failed. One, it was countered by most of the media, and not just Fox but also the more supposedly trustworthy channels. You remember the CNN report and the "it's so heartbreaking so see such promising young footballers have their careers cut short" schtick? Countered the outcry quite handily. Secondly, like pretty much every current issue, as soon as it was wrapped up and something new came along to piss everyone off, people just forgot about Steubenville.

I guess that's the biggest reason why the civil rights movement was a lot more effective than cases like Steubenville. The former was almost a decade of constant protests and pressure on lawmakers, the latter was largely forgotten almost as soon as the case was wrapped up. Activists these days seem to have a three second memory. As soon as an issue is "yesterday's news" they lose interest.

I guess that explains it concerning these cases. News shows stand up for the rapists then after a while, they stop reporting and people assume the whole mess was solved. This is why it's important to keep this mentioned & circulated online after TV & radio forget about it.

Also, these cases happened in very corrupt, very conservative places. If these cases happened in a very progressive, "blue areas", there may have been much done and the outcry would have been effective.

I think it's more number two. We are a rape culture as much as we may not like to admit it. Between 1 in 6 and 1 in 3 women will be raped in their lifetimes. The fear of rape is a constant threat for women, so much so even women blame women for being raped. Even today, rape is one of the only crimes where society expects additional evidence. If a woman is raped, she has to prove she isn't being a vindictive bitch. If a man get's his wallet stolen, he doesn't have to prove he had a wallet beforehand. This goes to an innate cynicism society has of rape victims as "lying sluts." It's no wonder with our justice system, that rape is the most under reported of all crimes.

Then you take into account the male perspective; men are supposed to have sex, men are supposed to "woo" the lady and seduce her, and if that doesn't work "try harder and win her over." Men are taught to be aggressive socially, to be the proverbial "hunter" seeking out a mate. Men are conditioned to see women not as people, but as sex objects, and when consent isn't given, rape. Further, as we've seen here and elsewhere, men generally write off rape because "the man shouldn't have his life ruined over a mistake." Take all these into consideration, it's no wonder 99% of rapists are male.

I think a large part of the problem is that women are seen as inferior to men. A women putting up with emotional suffering from a rape isn't quite seen the same socially as a male suffering.

Long story short, I think the best way to solve this problem is to continue making in-roads to gender equality. Fact is, these stories coming out is a huge step forward, even though it doesn't seem it. Thirty years ago, the woman would be ignored by prosecutors, media, and would still go through this bullshit. At least now there is outrage and pressure is being put on these systems to change. No city wants the kind of public notoriety Stubenville and Maryville got, and hopefully that will start making cities avoid letting these rapists off the hook.

And before anyone cries about my use of Men, yes, clearly not all men, but a considerable number. Sit in a college class discussing rape and see how many men give the guy every benefit of the doubt imaginable.

Makes sense. Your fourth paragraph makes sense as well & gives me hope. I think women need to reach out to sympathetic men. Having men as allies will make women's rights more legit to guys. Of course, some guys will laugh and call them wimps or worse but eventually, it may become "legit" and more guys will speak out. A lot of guys don't speak out against misogyny because they either support it, are afraid to speak out, or are apathetic. Most guys are decent but they need to know that it's okay to be pro-woman and that it won't hurt their "manliness".

[Ultimate Paragon]

A real man wouldn't be afraid to stand up for women's rights.

Also, I'm with Sirius on this.  People should stop crying wolf about rape.  If I remember correctly, there was this one woman back in the nineties who claimed that she was raped by police officers, and later shown to be lying.  We shouldn't brush off claims of rape, but on the flip side, we shouldn't automatically assume somebody accused of rape is guilty.

(InB4 Magus accuses me of tone-policing again).