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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: kefkaownsall on June 19, 2012, 01:02:56 am

Title: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: kefkaownsall on June 19, 2012, 01:02:56 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18497592
Basically TLDW version they are honoring this admiral who was the ruler who helped rebuild and fought the Russians during WWII.  Oh and killed countless Jews.  I dunno the idea of honoring people who aided the Nazi's in the holocaust is a little sketchy
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a theocracy
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 19, 2012, 01:23:15 am
It seems that you need to get your facts straight there buddy.
-Erecting a statue of a nationalist ruler doesn't a theocracy make. In fact, there's nothing religious at all about the act itself. For an act to qualify as "theocratic", there needs to be something inherently religious about it.
-Horthy was not a Nazi. Nazism is essentially extreme German nationalism, not "anyone who kills Jews".

I'm trying to say that it is or isn't a good idea to erect the statue, or that Hungary is or isn't a theocracy. Just that if you're going to comment on issues like this, just make sure you have at the very least even the most basic understanding of history and politics.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a theocracy
Post by: kefkaownsall on June 19, 2012, 01:27:58 am
It seems that you need to get your facts straight there buddy.
-Erecting a statue of a nationalist ruler doesn't a theocracy make. In fact, there's nothing religious at all about the act itself. For an act to qualify as "theocratic", there needs to be something inherently religious about it.
-Horthy was not a Nazi. Nazism is essentially extreme German nationalism, not "anyone who kills Jews".

I'm trying to say that it is or isn't a good idea to erect the statue, or that Hungary is or isn't a theocracy. Just that if you're going to comment on issues like this, just make sure you have at the very least even the most basic understanding of history and politics.
I'll edit still geez really Hungary not a good idea
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: largeham on June 19, 2012, 02:32:02 am
I always found it weird that Hungary had an admiral as its head of state.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 19, 2012, 03:29:46 am
I always found it weird that Hungary had an admiral as its head of state.

Because Hungary was landlocked? Yeah. Horthy initially declared himself Regent. So there was the saying in Hungary at the time "Regent without a monarchy, Admiral without a navy."
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Sylvana on June 19, 2012, 03:58:36 am
Oddly I don't find much problem with this.
Remembering ones history is important and at the time of that leaders reign his actions were done in defense of the country, which is significant enough to warrant his statue. There may be other more appropriate figures within Hungary's history but other than that there is really not much wrong with this.

On the other hand though survivors of that period may find the statue of him offensive. In that regard it may be considered extremely bad taste to erect it.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 19, 2012, 04:17:19 am
I'm not sure you could say Horthy was acting in defence of his own country. He aligned himself with the Nazis long before they were aiming their artillery at his mansion.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: TheL on June 19, 2012, 07:09:16 am
Hungary IS a far-right hell hole for very different reasons.

All but 14 "religions" are banned.  Those "religions" are actually denominations of Christianity and Judaism.  Atheism is banned.  Non-Abrahamic religions and Islam are banned.

This happened earlier this year, and I'm surprised it hasn't gotten much attention.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 19, 2012, 12:14:08 pm
At least the Hungarian people have resisted going the way of the rest of Europe and having multiculturalism forced upon them.

Given, they are doing it in a rather autocratic way.  But it seems to me that the leaders of the EU think they can turn Europe into the United States.  You can't do that any more than you could turn the U.S. into China.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 19, 2012, 04:25:57 pm
At least the Hungarian people have resisted going the way of the rest of Europe and having multiculturalism forced upon them.

Given, they are doing it in a rather autocratic way.  But it seems to me that the leaders of the EU think they can turn Europe into the United States.  You can't do that any more than you could turn the U.S. into China.

Shut up.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 19, 2012, 04:48:25 pm
At least the Hungarian people have resisted going the way of the rest of Europe and having multiculturalism forced upon them.

Given, they are doing it in a rather autocratic way.  But it seems to me that the leaders of the EU think they can turn Europe into the United States.  You can't do that any more than you could turn the U.S. into China.

Wouldn't want to let any darkies in!
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 19, 2012, 04:56:51 pm
At least the Hungarian people have resisted going the way of the rest of Europe and having multiculturalism forced upon them.

Given, they are doing it in a rather autocratic way.  But it seems to me that the leaders of the EU think they can turn Europe into the United States.  You can't do that any more than you could turn the U.S. into China.

Wouldn't want to let any darkies in!

I never said anything of the sort.  It just bothers me that Western European governments decide to change the cultural policy of countries with little or no input from the citizens.  As far as I'm concerned it is colonialism in reverse.

Shut up.

Make me.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 19, 2012, 05:01:36 pm
At least the Hungarian people have resisted going the way of the rest of Europe and having multiculturalism forced upon them.

Given, they are doing it in a rather autocratic way.  But it seems to me that the leaders of the EU think they can turn Europe into the United States.  You can't do that any more than you could turn the U.S. into China.

Wouldn't want to let any darkies in!

I never said anything of the sort.  It just bothers me that Western European governments decide to change the cultural policy of countries with little or no input from the citizens.  As far as I'm concerned it is colonialism in reverse.

How are Western governments 'changing cultural policy' and creating 'colonialism in reverse*'. By allowing fair immigration.

* Ye, the two are totally analogous. Tens of millions of white Europeans have been forced into slavery, starved to death or simply gunned down by their new black overlords.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 19, 2012, 05:07:27 pm
And now I'm agreeing with Fred.

Ironbite-I don't like to agree with Fred.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 19, 2012, 05:14:49 pm

How are Western governments 'changing cultural policy' and creating 'colonialism in reverse*'. By allowing fair immigration.

* Ye, the two are totally analogous. Tens of millions of white Europeans have been forced into slavery, starved to death or simply gunned down by their new black overlords.

Multiculturalism is not just about immigration.  Google it.

I refer you to this previous post I made, to which none of you had a response:

I hate to re-insert myself into this discussion, but...

The whole debate about Islamism aside, multiculturalism works better in some places than it does in others.

It has worked mostly OK in places like Canada, the USA, Brazil, India, Singapore, and to a lesser extent Australia and New Zealand.  That's not to say there is no ethnic tension in these places, but what I mean is that people have more-or-less learned to get along.  Moreover, there has to be some degree of assimilation into the broader society, or what you basically have is a form of neo-tribalism.

But you cannot assume that what works in one set of countries will necessarily work everywhere.  Europe is not the United States, regardless of the EU's aspirations.  The histories of the ethnic groups there are much deeper-rooted than most of the ethnic groups on the North American continent (save for the Native Americans, but that is a separate issue entirely).  That's not to suggest that the European countries have no experience dealing with ethnic minority issues, it's just that those experiences are considerably different from our own.

I suspect that all this is why the countries I named above have seen less misbehavior by Muslim immigrants than the European countries have--we do a better job in general of assimilating our immigrants, simply because the European countries aren't predominantly immigrant-based societies (like the USA, Canada, Australia, Brazil, New Zealand) and haven't historically had significant Muslim populations (like India and Singapore).

It is similar to colonialism in the sense that the governments are bending over backwards to accommodate people who have no interest in being European and assimilating into the local culture, and the native population has had no say in this--just as the natives of the Americas, Africa, and the Asian countries had no say in how the European empires took over their nations.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 19, 2012, 05:32:20 pm
I suspect that all this is why the countries I named above have seen less misbehavior by Muslim immigrants than the European countries have--we do a better job in general of assimilating our immigrants, simply because the European countries aren't predominantly immigrant-based societies (like the USA, Canada, Australia, Brazil, New Zealand) and haven't historically had significant Muslim populations (like India and Singapore).

You don't get to decide how other people dress, what religion they believe in or what they like to eat. If you think that immigrants aren't adopting your culture (assimilating) you do not get to force them, nor do you get to prevent them coming on the basis of race or religion.

Quote
It is similar to colonialism in the sense that the governments are bending over backwards to accommodate people who have no interest in being European and assimilating into the local culture, and the native population has had no say in this--just as the natives of the Americas, Africa, and the Asian countries had no say in how the European empires took over their nations.

That's a pretty long bow. Europeans don't get to run immigrants' lives for them, just as Africans were forced into slavery and outright murdered with impunity. Not being able to persecute others is not the same as persecution. White Europeans do not get a say in what culture other people believe and nor should they.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 19, 2012, 06:06:30 pm
You're missing my point entirely, Fred.

The fact that multicultural policy (or something similar to it) works in some countries doesn't mean it is appropriate in all countries.  That in and of itself borders on racism.

Multiculturalism can work well in countries in which the population is mostly descendants of immigrants (i.e. the Americas, Australia, New Zealand).  It is even more appropriate in countries which have historically been multiethnic/multireligious (India being perhaps the chief example of this).

It is probably not appropriate in countries which have been the ethnic homeland of people for generations and have historically not been multiethnic (e.g., most of Europe).  It does, however, provide a good cover story for businessmen who want cheaper labor, and politicians who wish to import people who will vote in their favor.  It also provides a great method for those who wish to play the game of "divide and conquer" (which I alluded to in the post I cut & paste earlier).

If you can't see how "multiculturalism" can, and has, been used as a political tool, you're not looking hard enough.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 19, 2012, 06:18:42 pm
Let's accept it as a given that multiculturalism has bad results, and that people did not get a vote on it. What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No. Forcing people to change culture? No.

It's my contention that there is no alternative to multiculturalism. You must not stop it, you can only adapt.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 19, 2012, 06:34:32 pm
Let's accept it as a given that multiculturalism has bad results, and that people did not get a vote on it.

And you're OK with that?

Quote
What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No.

Considering that these are the historical ethnic homelands of these people, why shouldn't the people have a say in who gets in?  I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

If the Native Americans were still the majority population in the USA, would you tell them they were required to let the hairy palefaced invaders into their land?

Quote
Forcing people to change culture? No.

I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Quote
It's my contention that there is no alternative to multiculturalism. You must not stop it, you can only adapt.

Again, you are assuming that a policy which works well in one type of country will work well everywhere.  That is rather Americentric, to say the least.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 20, 2012, 06:05:21 am
What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No.

Considering that these are the historical ethnic homelands of these people, why shouldn't the people have a say in who gets in? 

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

Quote
I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

Absolutely I disagree with their policy, and they must change it immediately.

Quote
I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Red herring; we're talking about what the government should do, not immigrants.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Canadian Mojo on June 20, 2012, 03:45:55 pm
What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No.

Considering that these are the historical ethnic homelands of these people, why shouldn't the people have a say in who gets in? 

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

Quote
I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

Absolutely I disagree with their policy, and they must change it immediately.

Quote
I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Red herring; we're talking about what the government should do, not immigrants.

So fred, you would be cool with us and the Americans sending you all our fundies? I'm guessing the answer is no because you know they don't play well with others and would quite happily shit on large parts of your constitutional rights and freedoms by demanding that they be allowed to ignore the parts they don't like if not outright changing it to force everyone to fall in line with their world view.

I know that they are not a poor oppressed people so it doesn't feel quite as noble, but by your metric, they have as much right as everybody else.

Now, before anyone gets too bent out of shape I'm not saying "all darkies are bad," and neither is anyone else here. All anyone is saying is that if your social values are not compatible and you are not willing to adapt, why should we let you in? Give me a good reason. I'm not willing to sacrifice my nice liberal democracy that believes in equality and the rule of law, but I am quite happy to share it.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 20, 2012, 05:19:24 pm
Let's assume that a large number of people from a religious group I didn't want wanted to come to Australia. I don't think the government of Australia should be allowed to prevent them, because governments should never discriminate on the basis of race, religion or political belief- nor should anyone get a vote on it, if we accept the idea of rights and the tyranny of the majority. There are some basis you can discriminate against people- you can prevent criminals from immigrating, for instance, or people with nasty diseases. But not race. Racism is wrong, period.

If you've got some other way of dealing with multiculturalism, a way that does not rely on violation of rights, you can do that. But I don't think there is a way for that to happen, so there is no alternative to multiculturalism.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 05:38:07 pm

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

In a word:  Assimilationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation).  Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

That's the way we have been doing it in the USA for many years.  And for the most part, it has worked.  Just FYI, I live in Northern New Jersey which has a significant immigrant population from many different regions/countries.  I can tell you firsthand that this approach works far better than multiculturalism.

Quote from: Lt. Fred
Quote from: Fpqxz
I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

Absolutely I disagree with their policy, and they must change it immediately.

Again, you are assuming that a policy which would work in a wealthy, developed, ethnically-mixed country (like the USA) is appropriate for all.  That's a rather blinkered assumption.

What about smaller countries who are desperately trying to preserve their culture (like Bhutan, let's say)?

Oh, and you never did answer my question about the Native Americans.   :P

Quote from: Lt. Fred
Quote from: Fpqxz
I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Red herring; we're talking about what the government should do, not immigrants.

The two things are connected though.  You are Australian, right?  (I gathered as much from the allusion to the "White Australia" policy, which is not what I am advocating here anyway.)  I have always wanted to visit Australia.  How would you like it if a bunch of obnoxious Teabagger white Americans moved into your country and started complaining about everything and making all kinds of political demands, like the elimination of your public healthcare system because it is "TEH SOSHULIZUM!!1!" ?  Shit, it's bad enough that you have to put up with the whinging Poms, right?   ;D
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 05:41:04 pm
So fred, you would be cool with us and the Americans sending you all our fundies? I'm guessing the answer is no because you know they don't play well with others and would quite happily shit on large parts of your constitutional rights and freedoms by demanding that they be allowed to ignore the parts they don't like if not outright changing it to force everyone to fall in line with their world view.

I know that they are not a poor oppressed people so it doesn't feel quite as noble, but by your metric, they have as much right as everybody else.

Now, before anyone gets too bent out of shape I'm not saying "all darkies are bad," and neither is anyone else here. All anyone is saying is that if your social values are not compatible and you are not willing to adapt, why should we let you in? Give me a good reason. I'm not willing to sacrifice my nice liberal democracy that believes in equality and the rule of law, but I am quite happy to share it.

Thank you!!!  This is what I am talking about.

It's nice to see someone trying to understand what I am saying without screaming "DAS RAYCISS!!!!11!!"  Race is really not a part of this argument at all.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 20, 2012, 06:10:27 pm

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

In a word:  Assimilationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation).  Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

That's the way we have been doing it in the USA for many years.  And for the most part, it has worked.

Yeah, worked in creating a xenophobic society that views itself to be so absolutely superior to all the other masses that its superior "culture" should be imposed on the rest of the world.

USA's a baaaaad example for the "qualities" of the melting pot system x_x
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 06:15:44 pm
Yeah, worked in creating a xenophobic society that views itself to be so absolutely superior to all the other masses that its superior "culture" should be imposed on the rest of the world.

USA's a baaaaad example for the "qualities" of the melting pot system x_x

I never said that our culture was superior, or even perfect.  I'm just saying that in terms of social cohesion, it's a pretty good system.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 20, 2012, 06:24:30 pm
Yeah, worked in creating a xenophobic society that views itself to be so absolutely superior to all the other masses that its superior "culture" should be imposed on the rest of the world.

USA's a baaaaad example for the "qualities" of the melting pot system x_x

I never said that our culture was superior, or even perfect.  I'm just saying that in terms of social cohesion, it's a pretty good system.

What social cohesion?

We've got two "factions" that are in a political war with each other.  We have people discriminated against and even killed because of their skin color or how they dress.  God forbid you wear the clothes you brought from your homeland, because you will have protests staged outside your house because they view you as an invader.

As far as social cohesion goes, we've got shit.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: TheL on June 20, 2012, 06:34:34 pm
Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

That's the way we have been doing it in the USA for many years.

No it isn't.  US history has multiple cases of Irish-Italian ghettos in the 19th century.  And what about all the Chinatowns out there?  Those are enclaves of Chinese culture and Chinese immigrants (and their descendants) in the United States.

The "melting pot" was an idealized concept that never actually happened.  Otherwise, you wouldn't see American citizens wearing saris or eating pizza.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Old Viking on June 20, 2012, 07:41:51 pm
If people don't stop using apostrophe-s to form plural nouns, I'm going to do some serious killing.  It's all pretty simple.  Apostrophe-s is singular possessive. (Fred's apple; horse's patoot.)  In English the plural is usually formed by adding an "s."  (Fred bought ten apples.) Sometimes "es."  (Those are Fred's boxes.)  And there are exceptions. But the plural is goddamn well never formed by apostrophe-s.  (Fred bought ten apple's.)  Do the right thing to avoid my wrath.

Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 07:51:47 pm
What social cohesion?

We've got two "factions" that are in a political war with each other.  We have people discriminated against and even killed because of their skin color or how they dress.  God forbid you wear the clothes you brought from your homeland, because you will have protests staged outside your house because they view you as an invader.

As far as social cohesion goes, we've got shit.

All those things you mentioned are far, far more common in the developing world than they are here.  There are incidents of racial, ethnic, religious, and political violence in every country.  They are rare enough in the USA (for now) that they are considered an exceptional event worthy of reporting.  (Incidentally, I'm not sure about the last thing you mentioned.)

This is not Northern Ireland, or Chechnya, or Jamaica, or Colombia, or South Africa, or Pakistan, or Sudan, or Syria.  We are better off in terms of social cohesion than many countries, even developed countries.  I know that may be a sad commentary on our times, but there it is.


No it isn't.  US history has multiple cases of Irish-Italian ghettos in the 19th century.  And what about all the Chinatowns out there?  Those are enclaves of Chinese culture and Chinese immigrants (and their descendants) in the United States.

The "melting pot" was an idealized concept that never actually happened.  Otherwise, you wouldn't see American citizens wearing saris or eating pizza.

You're really going to compare modern U.S. immigration policy and practice to what it was in the 19th century?  That's a bit unfair.  If anything, we have gotten better at assimilating immigrants over the years.  I can tell you that modern immigrants in general face much less discrimination and abuse than my ancestors did when they came over from Italy and Eastern Europe a little over a century ago.

And as far as Chinatowns are concerned, modern Chinatowns are more commercial and cultural attractions than "ethnic enclaves".  You don't typically see immigrant communities in the modern USA looking down on outsiders--it's bad for business, after all.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 20, 2012, 07:53:18 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ironbite-you're funny dude.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 08:31:48 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ironbite-you're funny dude.

Do you have anything intelligent to add to this discussion?  Because you have yet to do so.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 20, 2012, 08:44:23 pm
You honestly think the Chinatowns in the US are there for the tourists?  That the people who live there don't look down upon white people who are in their part of town?  You amuse me so much.

Also news flash...you haven't added anything intelligent to this discussion either so piss off with that noise.

Ironbite-you're horribly naive and at the same time xenophobic...it greatly amuses me.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 08:54:21 pm
You honestly think the Chinatowns in the US are there for the tourists?  That the people who live there don't look down upon white people who are in their part of town?  You amuse me so much.

Also news flash...you haven't added anything intelligent to this discussion either so piss off with that noise.

Ironbite-you're horribly naive and at the same time xenophobic...it greatly amuses me.

Two questions for you:

1.  What evidence do you have that I am wrong?

2.  Do you really think argumentum ad hominem is a good tactic, you fucking child?
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 20, 2012, 09:02:45 pm
Yeah don't think I'll be interacting with you other then to point and laugh.

Ironbite-but nice flame outside of F&B btw.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 09:04:14 pm
Yeah don't think I'll be interacting with you other then to point and laugh.

Ironbite-but nice flame outside of F&B btw.

Translation:  I disagree with you, but I am too stupid and inarticulate to substantiate my own opinion.

Eat a bowl of dicks, troll.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 20, 2012, 09:06:49 pm
Oh you are so damn cute!

Ironbite-I'm just gonna have to eat you up!
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 20, 2012, 09:13:01 pm
Fpq, stop flaming him outside of flame and burn.

Ironbite, stop provoking him outside of flame and burn.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: TheL on June 20, 2012, 09:17:57 pm
No it isn't.  US history has multiple cases of Irish-Italian ghettos in the 19th century.  And what about all the Chinatowns out there?  Those are enclaves of Chinese culture and Chinese immigrants (and their descendants) in the United States.

The "melting pot" was an idealized concept that never actually happened.  Otherwise, you wouldn't see American citizens wearing saris or eating pizza.

You're really going to compare modern U.S. immigration policy and practice to what it was in the 19th century?  That's a bit unfair.  If anything, we have gotten better at assimilating immigrants over the years.  I can tell you that modern immigrants in general face much less discrimination and abuse than my ancestors did when they came over from Italy and Eastern Europe a little over a century ago.

And as far as Chinatowns are concerned, modern Chinatowns are more commercial and cultural attractions than "ethnic enclaves".  You don't typically see immigrant communities in the modern USA looking down on outsiders--it's bad for business, after all.

1.  As an Italian-American, I know for a fact that immigration quotas were used against my family (dad, aunt, uncle, and grandparents are off-the-boat Italians) as recently as 1952.  That's not the 19th century.

2. Look up "sundown towns."  Very common in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Black people and Chinese-Americans weren't allowed within city limits after the sun went down--effectively ensuring that only WASPs lived in those particular towns.

3. Have you seriously not heard of the insanely stringent anti-immigration laws lately?

4. Wow, for someone trying to school people on U.S. history, you know jack squat about Chinatown.  Also, just because people are nice to you to your face, doesn't mean they aren't nasty to you behind your back.  Not singling out the Chinese-American community here, just saying it happens.

5. Please stop calling people names.  It's not cool.

(EDIT:  Was off by a year.  My dad was young at the time, but not quite that young.)
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Shane for Wax on June 20, 2012, 09:23:33 pm
Зійдіть з дурними ксенофобії дупу.

(http://cean.users.theorycraft.org/gifs-linkedtotumblr-bandwidthraping/anthropocentric-bag-of-dicks8.gif)
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Keiro Dreamwalker on June 20, 2012, 09:23:57 pm
... Wow, the antagonism in here is... explodes from the antagonism in here

Okay, I'm going to let this thread continue on, but seriously, you guys need to quit flaming.

I don't care about the he/she said bullshit. Keep it up and I will just issue a 24-hr post-ban.

Also, considering promoting Zachski to moderator. :u
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 20, 2012, 09:25:20 pm
No don't do that it'll only give him a bigger head then he already has/monotone
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 20, 2012, 10:11:07 pm
1.  As an Italian-American, I know for a fact that immigration quotas were used against my family (dad, aunt, uncle, and grandparents are off-the-boat Italians) as recently as 1952.  That's not the 19th century.

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965) completely overhauled the previous immigration law system.

Quote from: TheL
2. Look up "sundown towns."  Very common in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Black people and Chinese-Americans weren't allowed within city limits after the sun went down--effectively ensuring that only WASPs lived in those particular towns.

I'm familiar with that, and it has little to do with the topic of this thread.  That was more a product of Jim Crow than anything else.

Quote from: TheL
3. Have you seriously not heard of the insanely stringent anti-immigration laws lately?

They are still less strict than they used to be (see above).  The ridiculous and unconstitutional state laws notwithstanding.  The only reason those are being passed is because the Federal government refuses to do anything substantive about illegal immigration.

Quote from: TheL
4. Wow, for someone trying to school people on U.S. history, you know jack squat about Chinatown.  Also, just because people are nice to you to your face, doesn't mean they aren't nasty to you behind your back.  Not singling out the Chinese-American community here, just saying it happens.

Even if that is true, the Chinese-American community is far more integrated into the broader society than it used to be.  I know at least as much about history as you do, so spare me your condescension.

My overarching point is that I don't think any country should be obligated to admit anyone (save possibly for refugees), and the immigration and social policies of one country aren't necessarily appropriate for all.  I can't help but notice that most of the people responding to this thread haven't really answered that point.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 21, 2012, 02:28:11 am
If people don't stop using apostrophe-s to form plural nouns, I'm going to do some serious killing.  It's all pretty simple.  Apostrophe-s is singular possessive. (Fred's apple; horse's patoot.)  In English the plural is usually formed by adding an "s."  (Fred bought ten apples.) Sometimes "es."  (Those are Fred's boxes.)  And there are exceptions. But the plural is goddamn well never formed by apostrophe-s.  (Fred bought ten apple's.)  Do the right thing to avoid my wrath.

Also, multiple people using a similar noun is s apostrophe. "The Freds' banana plantation."

I like that usage.

Yeah don't think I'll be interacting with you other then to point and laugh.

Ironbite-but nice flame outside of F&B btw.

Translation:  I disagree with you, but I am too stupid and inarticulate to substantiate my own opinion.

Eat a bowl of dicks, troll.

One rave for you.


Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

In a word:  Assimilationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation).  Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

Here, I think, is our problem. I would define this as multiculturalism.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 21, 2012, 03:14:59 am
Yeah don't think I'll be interacting with you other then to point and laugh.

Ironbite-but nice flame outside of F&B btw.

Translation:  I disagree with you, but I am too stupid and inarticulate to substantiate my own opinion.

Eat a bowl of dicks, troll.

One rave for you.

 8)


Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

In a word:  Assimilationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation).  Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

Here, I think, is our problem. I would define this as multiculturalism.

But from a sociological and political standpoint, assimilationism and multiculturalism are two quite different things.  The former implies minorities/newcomers being introduced into a group (sometimes forcibly, but hopefully not), the latter implies multiple cultures side-by-side in the same country (e.g. the example of India that I gave before).

From this view it is easy to see that one policy may be preferable over the other in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: TheL on June 21, 2012, 08:49:38 pm
1.  As an Italian-American, I know for a fact that immigration quotas were used against my family (dad, aunt, uncle, and grandparents are off-the-boat Italians) as recently as 1952.  That's not the 19th century.

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965) completely overhauled the previous immigration law system.

Granted, but that's at the federal level.  At the state level, there are TONS of horrendous immigration laws being passed all the time.

Quote from: TheL
2. Look up "sundown towns."  Very common in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Black people and Chinese-Americans weren't allowed within city limits after the sun went down--effectively ensuring that only WASPs lived in those particular towns.

I'm familiar with that, and it has little to do with the topic of this thread.  That was more a product of Jim Crow than anything else.

Er...you brought up immigration and the treatment of immigrants.  Chinese-Americans were, in fact, immigrants.  Legal ones.  Also, Jim Crow laws were in the South.  This shit happened up North.

My overarching point is that I don't think any country should be obligated to admit anyone (save possibly for refugees), and the immigration and social policies of one country aren't necessarily appropriate for all.  I can't help but notice that most of the people responding to this thread haven't really answered that point.

I honestly don't see why people who want to change their home country shouldn't be allowed to do so.  Nor am I sure what changing immigration policies will do about people who have already emigrated.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Bezron on June 22, 2012, 01:45:21 pm

Er...you brought up immigration and the treatment of immigrants.  Chinese-Americans were, in fact, immigrants.  Legal ones.  Also, Jim Crow laws were in the South.  This shit happened up North.


Jim Crow laws happened in the North too, mostly in more rural areas.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 22, 2012, 04:57:51 pm
But from a sociological and political standpoint, assimilationism and multiculturalism are two quite different things.

Let's stop using these terms, because I don't agree with your definitions of them.

Quote
The former implies minorities/newcomers being introduced into a group (sometimes forcibly, but hopefully not), the latter implies multiple cultures side-by-side in the same country (e.g. the example of India that I gave before).

So the distinction being the existence of a primary culture everyone has to agree with? Which India doesn't have?
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 22, 2012, 05:52:16 pm
But from a sociological and political standpoint, assimilationism and multiculturalism are two quite different things.

Let's stop using these terms, because I don't agree with your definitions of them.

They aren't my definitions.

The former implies minorities/newcomers being introduced into a group (sometimes forcibly, but hopefully not), the latter implies multiple cultures side-by-side in the same country (e.g. the example of India that I gave before).

So the distinction being the existence of a primary culture everyone has to agree with? Which India doesn't have?

In the latter there can be a majority and minority culture, with separate cultural & linguistic rights, and all that that entails.  No two countries have the same approach on this.

I admit that this stuff is kind of hard to pin down, but there are differences in the two approaches.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 24, 2012, 12:04:18 am
... Wow, the antagonism in here is... explodes from the antagonism in here

Okay, I'm going to let this thread continue on, but seriously, you guys need to quit flaming.

I don't care about the he/she said bullshit. Keep it up and I will just issue a 24-hr post-ban.

Also, considering promoting Zachski to moderator. :u

Umm, you realize that's going to piss a LOT of people off, right?  Or, did you forget with people being leery when new mods were made after the Naps snafu?
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: ironbite on June 24, 2012, 12:16:33 am
How is Zach a bad choice for mod anyways?

Ironbite-the Nap thing was something completely different
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 24, 2012, 12:25:40 am
How is Zach a bad choice for mod anyways?
If I may be completely honest. Being a mod requires a more unemotional approach to things, especially when a rather heated argument crops up and emotions are for the most part running rather high. From what I've seen over the years, keeping his emotions under control in such a situation is not exactly his forte.

Now, I'm not saying this because I have a problem with Zach himself. I've got nothing against him as a person. This just seems like another Shanegate waiting to happen.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Shane for Wax on June 24, 2012, 12:30:45 am
Really?

We're going to go down this road?
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 24, 2012, 01:27:49 am
How is Zach a bad choice for mod anyways?
If I may be completely honest. Being a mod requires a more unemotional approach to things, especially when a rather heated argument crops up and emotions are for the most part running rather high. From what I've seen over the years, keeping his emotions under control in such a situation is not exactly his forte.

Your concerns and criticisms are valid, and I thank you for addressing them.

That being said, I've never been under any real pressure before to keep my emotions in check.  So this is a good experience for me in that regard.

And as I'm still very new, I'm going to be deferring to more experienced moderators and admins anyways, until I'm more experienced with what needs to be done and, more importantly, what doesn't need to be done.

There are rules in place for moderators.  If I violate those rules in the fit of passion, I will willingly step down.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 24, 2012, 01:52:43 am
In the latter there can be a majority and minority culture, with separate cultural & linguistic rights, and all that that entails.

I don't think forcible assimilation is acceptable. Certainly the government might reasonably encourage some sorts of assimilation- like language. But I don't think the government should be telling a group of people that their cultural practices- religion, culinary and so on- are wrong.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 24, 2012, 10:29:40 am
Your concerns and criticisms are valid, and I thank you for addressing them.

That being said, I've never been under any real pressure before to keep my emotions in check.  So this is a good experience for me in that regard.

And as I'm still very new, I'm going to be deferring to more experienced moderators and admins anyways, until I'm more experienced with what needs to be done and, more importantly, what doesn't need to be done.

There are rules in place for moderators.  If I violate those rules in the fit of passion, I will willingly step down.
S'cool, friend. Like anyone else, as long as you're aware of and can manage your own weaknesses, you should be fine. Hell, the fact that you didn't take what I said the wrong way, despite the fact that we often butt heads around here, says that there's no reason why you can't be a good mod.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 24, 2012, 08:49:56 pm
I don't think forcible assimilation is acceptable. Certainly the government might reasonably encourage some sorts of assimilation- like language. But I don't think the government should be telling a group of people that their cultural practices- religion, culinary and so on- are wrong.

Obviously, we can't force immigrants to change religions or prevent them from speaking their native language in certain contexts.  That would be a human rights violation, and in the USA it would be unconstitutional anyway.

But how far should we take the issue of allowing them to keep their own culture?  Are we to start making exceptions in our own laws for things like domestic violence (which is acceptable in some cultures)?  Should we legalize or refrain from prosecuting things like bride burning, acid throwing, and honor killings?

As far as I'm concerned, immigrants shouldn't be given a free pass on things that would be illegal in their destination countries just because those things might be acceptable in their home countries.

And BTW I have no problem with Zachski becoming a mod.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 24, 2012, 11:45:04 pm
But how far should we take the issue of allowing them to keep their own culture?  Are we to start making exceptions in our own laws for things like domestic violence (which is acceptable in some cultures)?  Should we legalize or refrain from prosecuting things like bride burning, acid throwing, and honor killings?

Of course not. This is an absurd strawman.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: kefkaownsall on June 24, 2012, 11:56:31 pm
But how far should we take the issue of allowing them to keep their own culture?  Are we to start making exceptions in our own laws for things like domestic violence (which is acceptable in some cultures)?  Should we legalize or refrain from prosecuting things like bride burning, acid throwing, and honor killings?

Of course not. This is an absurd strawman.
Yeah that is two steps above godwining.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 25, 2012, 12:04:22 am
I have to agree with Fred on this, actually.

There's a difference between demanding that foreigners follow the laws of the country they're in (which is not just reasonable, but a necessary demand) and demanding that foreigners abandon their own culture entirely to be assimilated into your culture.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 25, 2012, 02:26:46 am
It does depend somewhat on the laws of the country. If we claim that our laws are based on 'Judaeo-Christianity', is it not reasonable for Muslims to ask for a separate set of laws based in their own religious practice? One more reason for secular law and the separation of church and state.
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: Fpqxz on June 25, 2012, 04:14:35 am
It does depend somewhat on the laws of the country. If we claim that our laws are based on 'Judaeo-Christianity', is it not reasonable for Muslims to ask for a separate set of laws based in their own religious practice? One more reason for secular law and the separation of church and state.

Well, that does make sense, when you look at it that way.

Holy crap, I actually agree with Fred on something...truly these must be the end times.   :D
Title: Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
Post by: TheReasonator on July 14, 2012, 10:26:58 pm
Hungary IS a far-right hell hole for very different reasons.

All but 14 "religions" are banned.  Those "religions" are actually denominations of Christianity and Judaism.  Atheism is banned.  Non-Abrahamic religions and Islam are banned.

This happened earlier this year, and I'm surprised it hasn't gotten much attention.

Isn't that against EU human rights laws? Time for the EU to kick out Hungary.