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Rubbish => Preaching and Worship => Topic started by: Jacob Harrison on October 05, 2018, 08:26:24 am

Title: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Jacob Harrison on October 05, 2018, 08:26:24 am
Remember when you challenged me to convert you guys to Christianity? Well I have a challenge for you. The challenge is for you to attempt to deconvert me. You will fail at doing so because it is impossible to debunk Christianity. By failing to disprove Christianity, you will see that Christianity is true and then convert.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Art Vandelay on October 05, 2018, 09:10:38 am
Have you got the taste of my ballsack out of your mouth yet?
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 05, 2018, 10:14:02 am
Remember when you challenged me to convert you guys to Christianity? Well I have a challenge for you. The challenge is for you to attempt to deconvert me. You will fail at doing so because it is impossible to debunk Christianity. By failing to disprove Christianity, you will see that Christianity is true and then convert.
Yeah but you also think denim is sexy, by failing to convince you that it's not doesn't make denim objectively sexy. Your subjective views ain't my problem.

Moar weird sex kinks, wizards and conspiracies pls. Why don't you just follow Jesus sermon on the mount advice RE pearls before swine piggie? Even Jesus knew you're wasting your breath.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: dpareja on October 05, 2018, 12:06:08 pm
Go look up Richard Carrier. He's probably the most prominent exponent of the proposition that Jesus is wholly mythical.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Jacob Harrison on October 05, 2018, 05:41:49 pm
Go look up Richard Carrier. He's probably the most prominent exponent of the proposition that Jesus is wholly mythical.

Richard Carrier is a proponent of “a fringe theory, supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism or cognate disciplines.[4][5][6][q 2] It deviates from the mainstream historical view, which is that while the gospels include many legendary elements, these are religious elaborations added to the accounts of a historical Jesus who was crucified in the 1st-century Roman province of Judea.[7][8]”

So if Jesus was just a mere man, how did he get so many people to believe that he is the messiah?
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: dpareja on October 05, 2018, 05:56:16 pm
Most of those scholars work for Christian schools, where they are obligated to disregard the possibility of a mythical Jesus. That's not honest scholarship.

As for why so many people believe Jesus is the Messiah, you do know that stories grow in the telling, right? You can see that with the Gospels themselves: Mark is the barebones story (and still not an eyewitness account), Matthew and Luke build on it, and John does his own thing entirely, each one getting more and more supernatural.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 05, 2018, 06:32:43 pm
Go look up Richard Carrier. He's probably the most prominent exponent of the proposition that Jesus is wholly mythical.

Richard Carrier is a proponent of “a fringe theory, supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism or cognate disciplines.[4][5][6][q 2] It deviates from the mainstream historical view, which is that while the gospels include many legendary elements, these are religious elaborations added to the accounts of a historical Jesus who was crucified in the 1st-century Roman province of Judea.[7][8]”

So if Jesus was just a mere man, how did he get so many people to believe that he is the messiah?
That's better, cutting and pasting from Wikipedia is so much more your speed. And the point of all this is that if you aren't convinced of this "non mainstream" historical thesis then you'll cry that all that jazz about loaves, fishes, smoke locusts and doing the moonwalk on the Red Sea is really real and because our eye rolling doesn't change your tiny little mind it must be truly true?

Also, lots of people also believe that Joseph Smith had a direct line to God, lots of people thought Mohammad did. Lots of people believed in the Mithraic mysteries at one point and some folks believe that extraterrestrials make interstellar quests to arrive here in gravity-defying spacecraft to murder cattle and probe our butts. "People believe stuff" just proves that "people believe stuff"-that's it.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Jacob Harrison on October 05, 2018, 07:30:07 pm
Most of those scholars work for Christian schools, where they are obligated to disregard the possibility of a mythical Jesus. That's not honest scholarship.

As for why so many people believe Jesus is the Messiah, you do know that stories grow in the telling, right? You can see that with the Gospels themselves: Mark is the barebones story (and still not an eyewitness account), Matthew and Luke build on it, and John does his own thing entirely, each one getting more and more supernatural.

Not all the scholars are biblical scholars. According to wikipedia “Nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history[7] and most biblical scholars have maintained that a historical Jesus did indeed exist [8][9]

If it is nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history, that includes secular historians. Otherwise, the Christ myth theory would not be a fringe theory, because more secular historians would come to that conclusion after researching the ancient history.

Christianity spread extremely quickly and gained many followers within the 1st century and by the time of the Apostle Paul, there were Churches all around the Roman world. By the time of Nero, there were Christians in Rome who were persecuted. If the story of Jesus’s death and resurrection were not true, then the religion wouldn’t spread that quickly and gain so many followers.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 05, 2018, 08:13:21 pm
Most of those scholars work for Christian schools, where they are obligated to disregard the possibility of a mythical Jesus. That's not honest scholarship.

As for why so many people believe Jesus is the Messiah, you do know that stories grow in the telling, right? You can see that with the Gospels themselves: Mark is the barebones story (and still not an eyewitness account), Matthew and Luke build on it, and John does his own thing entirely, each one getting more and more supernatural.

Not all the scholars are biblical scholars. According to wikipedia “Nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history[7] and most biblical scholars have maintained that a historical Jesus did indeed exist [8][9]

If it is nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history, that includes secular historians. Otherwise, the Christ myth theory would not be a fringe theory, because more secular historians would come to that conclusion after researching the ancient history.

Christianity spread extremely quickly and gained many followers within the 1st century and by the time of the Apostle Paul, there were Churches all around the Roman world. By the time of Nero, there were Christians in Rome who were persecuted. If the story of Jesus’s death and resurrection were not true, then the religion wouldn’t spread that quickly and gain so many followers.
I guess an argument from authority is to be expected from an authoritarian, there are actually more nuanced and better defences of the historicity of Jesus than the one you're putting forward see if you can find them. I'll wait.

In any case the argument "it spread quickly so it must be true" rests on the unspoken premise that something spreading quickly does so because of it's truth value, and this argument is seriously put forward in an age where fake news spreads and disseminates as quickly as a gaggle of idiots can hit "send." Seriously?
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Jacob Harrison on October 05, 2018, 08:27:05 pm
Most of those scholars work for Christian schools, where they are obligated to disregard the possibility of a mythical Jesus. That's not honest scholarship.

As for why so many people believe Jesus is the Messiah, you do know that stories grow in the telling, right? You can see that with the Gospels themselves: Mark is the barebones story (and still not an eyewitness account), Matthew and Luke build on it, and John does his own thing entirely, each one getting more and more supernatural.

Not all the scholars are biblical scholars. According to wikipedia “Nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history[7] and most biblical scholars have maintained that a historical Jesus did indeed exist [8][9]

If it is nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history, that includes secular historians. Otherwise, the Christ myth theory would not be a fringe theory, because more secular historians would come to that conclusion after researching the ancient history.

Christianity spread extremely quickly and gained many followers within the 1st century and by the time of the Apostle Paul, there were Churches all around the Roman world. By the time of Nero, there were Christians in Rome who were persecuted. If the story of Jesus’s death and resurrection were not true, then the religion wouldn’t spread that quickly and gain so many followers.
I guess an argument from authority is to be expected from an authoritarian, there are actually more nuanced and better defences of the historicity of Jesus than the one you're putting forward see if you can find them. I'll wait.

In any case the argument "it spread quickly so it must be true" rests on the unspoken premise that something spreading quickly does so because of it's truth value, and this argument is seriously put forward in an age where fake news spreads and disseminates as quickly as a gaggle of idiots can hit "send." Seriously?

Well, the historians are experts on history during that time, and it is common sense that if the vast majority of historians have the same conclusion, then it is most likely historically accurate. They are the ones with the defenses of the historicity of Jesus.

If it was a lie, then Christianity would not have gained as much followers in such a short period of time, because there would be a lack of evidence that would make people believe. Something significant had to have happened to make so many people believe. Lies spread faster on the internet than in Ancient time because the internet allows for very fast spreading of information. . Christianity spread faster than other religions such as Mormonism, and did not spread by conquest like Islam.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 05, 2018, 10:15:56 pm
Most of those scholars work for Christian schools, where they are obligated to disregard the possibility of a mythical Jesus. That's not honest scholarship.

As for why so many people believe Jesus is the Messiah, you do know that stories grow in the telling, right? You can see that with the Gospels themselves: Mark is the barebones story (and still not an eyewitness account), Matthew and Luke build on it, and John does his own thing entirely, each one getting more and more supernatural.

Not all the scholars are biblical scholars. According to wikipedia “Nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history[7] and most biblical scholars have maintained that a historical Jesus did indeed exist [8][9]

If it is nearly all contemporary scholars of ancient history, that includes secular historians. Otherwise, the Christ myth theory would not be a fringe theory, because more secular historians would come to that conclusion after researching the ancient history.

Christianity spread extremely quickly and gained many followers within the 1st century and by the time of the Apostle Paul, there were Churches all around the Roman world. By the time of Nero, there were Christians in Rome who were persecuted. If the story of Jesus’s death and resurrection were not true, then the religion wouldn’t spread that quickly and gain so many followers.
I guess an argument from authority is to be expected from an authoritarian, there are actually more nuanced and better defences of the historicity of Jesus than the one you're putting forward see if you can find them. I'll wait.

In any case the argument "it spread quickly so it must be true" rests on the unspoken premise that something spreading quickly does so because of it's truth value, and this argument is seriously put forward in an age where fake news spreads and disseminates as quickly as a gaggle of idiots can hit "send." Seriously?

Well, the historians are experts on history during that time, and it is common sense that if the vast majority of historians have the same conclusion, then it is most likely historically accurate. They are the ones with the defenses of the historicity of Jesus.

If it was a lie, then Christianity would not have gained as much followers in such a short period of time, because there would be a lack of evidence that would make people believe. Something significant had to have happened to make so many people believe. Lies spread faster on the internet than in Ancient time because the internet allows for very fast spreading of information. . Christianity spread faster than other religions such as Mormonism, and did not spread by conquest like Islam.
No, because if a lie is palatable it gets real popular real quick. As I said, the historicity of Jesus has very little bearing on the merits of Christianity as a religion.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: KingOfRhye on October 05, 2018, 11:31:54 pm
Remember when you challenged me to convert you guys to Christianity? Well I have a challenge for you. The challenge is for you to attempt to deconvert me. You will fail at doing so because it is impossible to debunk Christianity. By failing to disprove Christianity, you will see that Christianity is true and then convert.

All I gotta say is, read Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion and watch AronRa's YouTube videos.  If that doesn't convert you, nothing I can do will.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Skybison on October 06, 2018, 02:09:27 am
@Tol I'd recommend Did Jesus Exist by Bart Ehrman, he does a good job of debunking the Jesus Myth theory and explaining why historian of the period overwhelmingly believe Jesus was a real figure.

I'm going to be honest Jacob is actually right about this one.  I'm not an expert but I know enough about the history involved to say Jesus Myth theory is bunk.  It can't be absolutely refuted but it largely rests on misrepresentations of how ancient history is actually studied and long discredited ideas like the pagan dying reviving god. 

And dpareja, that's not accurate about historians.  First they do have several lines of evidence pointing towards Jesus being a historical figure (Paul personally knowing his brother, the criterion of embarrassment, the general trajectory of how Christianity evolved) and ignores the fact that most of these historians don't believe Christianity to be literal truth.

The dominant view today is that Jesus was a Jewish preacher of the Dualist/apocalyptic movement, promoting the idea that the world was about to end and that poor Jews, not the rich and powerful, were the truly righteous  and should resist the Romans and seek spiritual purity over material wealth or their own families.  He never believed he was a god, that idea evolved much later.

And that's my challenge for you Jacob.  You say why should trust the judgement of historians when it comes to Jesus being a real person, but what about everything else about him?  Again those same historians agree he didn't believe himself to be divine, thought the world was going to end thousands of years ago and overall was a very different person then the guy you worship.  If you trust Historians on Jesus being real, why not on that?
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: dpareja on October 06, 2018, 02:33:44 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqpX-OyvsYI

Carrier discussing the historicity of Jesus.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Skybison on October 06, 2018, 03:31:45 am
Okay if your going to post a video that long, could you at least give the time for when he says stuff that is relevant to the discussion?  Because I'm half way through he's barely said anything about Jesus's historicity yet.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: dpareja on October 06, 2018, 03:44:19 am
Okay if your going to post a video that long, could you at least give the time for when he says stuff that is relevant to the discussion?  Because I'm half way through he's barely said anything about Jesus's historicity yet.

It's been a while since I've watched it, sorry.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Skybison on October 06, 2018, 04:35:31 am
Okay so the main points he makes in that video are:
1) no evidence for Jesus from third party accounts
2) Earliest stuff (ie letters of paul) doesn't talk about Jesus as a flesh and blood person.
3) At the time there was a trend of claiming that Roman gods were actually moral kings in the past, and that Jesus was likely in a similar category.

Now it's hard for me to fully respond since he doesn't give any evidence in that interview, but says he does have it in a book I haven't read, but from what I know of the topic:

1) This is what I'm talking about on misrepresenting how history is studied.  There is almost nothing in ancient history that is based on this sort of evidence.  Very little back then was written down compared to today, and very little of what was written down has survived.  The lack of evidence for Jesus is not remotely unusual or surprising.  What historians do is read through these sorts of biased propaganda accounts from long after the fact and try to work out what is most probable.

2) The idea that Paul didn't think Jesus was a real person is rejected by basically everyone else works in the field.  Paul clearly says he's met Jesus's brother and that the Roman's killed him, and the religious views Paul expresses make no sense with the idea that he didn't think Jesus was a recent figure.  Paul believed the world was about to end and that the resurrection of Jesus proved this.

3) There is no evidence whatsoever that any Christians ever didn't think Jesus was a real person.  We know a lot of what early Christians believed, since they wrote lots of stuff attacking each other as heretics, but nowhere is there any mention of Christians who didn't think Jesus really lived.

He also talks about how it's possible that Jesus might be a fictional character who later came to be thought of as real, and this is something that has always annoyed me when talking to mythers.  Possible and probable are not the same thing.  I agree it is possible for Jesus to have been a mythical person, but little to no reason to regard that as more probable then him having existed.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Jacob Harrison on October 06, 2018, 09:12:33 am
@Tol I'd recommend Did Jesus Exist by Bart Ehrman, he does a good job of debunking the Jesus Myth theory and explaining why historian of the period overwhelmingly believe Jesus was a real figure.

I'm going to be honest Jacob is actually right about this one.  I'm not an expert but I know enough about the history involved to say Jesus Myth theory is bunk.  It can't be absolutely refuted but it largely rests on misrepresentations of how ancient history is actually studied and long discredited ideas like the pagan dying reviving god. 

And dpareja, that's not accurate about historians.  First they do have several lines of evidence pointing towards Jesus being a historical figure (Paul personally knowing his brother, the criterion of embarrassment, the general trajectory of how Christianity evolved) and ignores the fact that most of these historians don't believe Christianity to be literal truth.

The dominant view today is that Jesus was a Jewish preacher of the Dualist/apocalyptic movement, promoting the idea that the world was about to end and that poor Jews, not the rich and powerful, were the truly righteous  and should resist the Romans and seek spiritual purity over material wealth or their own families.  He never believed he was a god, that idea evolved much later.

And that's my challenge for you Jacob.  You say why should trust the judgement of historians when it comes to Jesus being a real person, but what about everything else about him?  Again those same historians agree he didn't believe himself to be divine, thought the world was going to end thousands of years ago and overall was a very different person then the guy you worship.  If you trust Historians on Jesus being real, why not on that?

According to Wikipedia “There is widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings,[15] and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.”

So the secular historians never said specifically that Jesus didn’t believe himself to be divine.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 06, 2018, 10:23:33 am
Frankly I don't know why Jacob is ranting at me about the historicity of Jesus, I'm yet to be convinced that the Jesus myth hypothesis is the most convincing explanation my point is his defence against it is terrible. He cites Wikipedia as saying that most experts agree and that's...it.

It's not that I'm a one eyed proponent of the Jesus myth hypothesis it's just that:

A: "Most experts agree" is not an argument worthy of the name. Why is this the case, what counter claims do these experts put forward, who are they, what are their motives and how does it affect their research-yes the same should be examined for Jesus myth hypothesis proponents. Skybison does the job properly and Jacob can't even work out what he did after he quotes him.

B: Whether or not Jesus existed has no bearing on whether Christianity, that is all tenants and claims of that religion is true, no more than the historicity of Mohammad or Krishna makes the religions founded in their name true.

C: The speed in which a religion/cult spreads is not, by itself an indication of either it's truth value or it's virtue. It's simply an observation that it hits the right notes with its target market.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Skybison on October 11, 2018, 02:15:28 am
To go back to the original topic, Jacob, what would the the kinds of arguments that you would find convincing arguments against Christianity.

Because I can think of things that I would consider proof or at least strong evidence for Christianity that would cause me to convert if they were offered ie scientific studies finding that Catholic prayers healed illnesses but that prayers for other religions didn't.

So what would be the kind of argument that would get to to question Christianity?  Tell me and I'll see what I can find.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Jacob Harrison on October 11, 2018, 08:26:06 am
To go back to the original topic, Jacob, what would the the kinds of arguments that you would find convincing arguments against Christianity.

Because I can think of things that I would consider proof or at least strong evidence for Christianity that would cause me to convert if they were offered ie scientific studies finding that Catholic prayers healed illnesses but that prayers for other religions didn't.

So what would be the kind of argument that would get to to question Christianity?  Tell me and I'll see what I can find.

Prove that any of the Old Testament prophecies mentioned in the New Testament could not possibly be referring to Jesus. That would disprove the New Testament. Or show me historical evidence that any of the events mentioned in the Bible such as events in the Gospels did not happen.
Title: Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 11, 2018, 10:04:21 am
To go back to the original topic, Jacob, what would the the kinds of arguments that you would find convincing arguments against Christianity.

Because I can think of things that I would consider proof or at least strong evidence for Christianity that would cause me to convert if they were offered ie scientific studies finding that Catholic prayers healed illnesses but that prayers for other religions didn't.

So what would be the kind of argument that would get to to question Christianity?  Tell me and I'll see what I can find.

Prove that any of the Old Testament prophecies mentioned in the New Testament could not possibly be referring to JesusLALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUU. That would disprove the New Testament. Or show me historical evidence that any of the events mentioned in the Bible such as events in the Gospels did not happen prove a negative, coz that's a reasonable standard.