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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Stormwarden on June 16, 2012, 02:02:48 am

Title: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Stormwarden on June 16, 2012, 02:02:48 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/us/code-on-shell-casings-sparks-a-gun-debate.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

The gun lobby is holding up (via a patent fight) new tech that would place a microscopic code on the firing pin of semiautomatic handguns (but not revolvers, which don't eject shells).

The gun control lobby says that it would make locating guns used in crimes easier, and it would only raise the price of a gun by $12. They also say that the tech is evolving and that waiting until it's foolproof would be silly.

The gun lobbyists argue that criminals can file away the number, that it would actually raise the price by $200 a gun, and that the tech is ineffective.

Both sides, frankly, have holes in their arguments. It's entirely possible for guns to be stolen. Also, while one could file away the serial number, why risk a misfire, and instead, replace the firing pin entirely? A lot of crims use revolvers, which aren't covered, exactly because they don't drop shells.

I'm not impressed with either side, really, but if someone is using a gun in the commission of a crime, I'd want them in custody asap, since it reflects badly on all legal gun owners, myself included.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: largeham on June 16, 2012, 02:21:02 am
How often do criminals keep their guns after they've fired it? Surely the smart ones would get rid of it, no matter how good the gun was.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Stormwarden on June 16, 2012, 02:33:10 am
^ That too. The smart ones ditch them after they use them. Granted, they do get found eventually most of the time. And don't forget that the majority of handguns used in crimes are stolen or bought off the black market (meaning they're illegal in the first place). No smart crim wants a gun with a paper trail on it.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Damen on June 16, 2012, 02:48:51 am
All it does is lead you back to the last registered owner. And let's say the registered owner wants to use it to kill someone; what's to stop him from hiding it, calling the police ahead of time and reporting it stolen, then going out and committing the crime? Also, with as small as the coding would be to fit on a primer, you'd have no trouble at all filing the code off and still be left with a perfectly functional firearm. And pretend for a second this does pass. Do they not know that firing pins can break and wear out and need to be replaced? How will this happen because right now I can go into a gun store, point at a firing pin on the wall, hand over the $15 bucks and walk out. Or, I can go on the net, sent a gun site the money via paypal and they'll mail me my new firing pin. With coding being required by law, do we now create a whole new database for replacement firing pins? Will I have to register the firing pin with an FFL dealer, pass a background check and pay a transfer fee on top of the initial cost to now legally buy my new firing pin?

Another problem; have they not heard of shell catchers?

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This is just a stupid feel-good move that won't help stop crime and just burdens legal, law abiding gun owners.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: DasFuchs on June 16, 2012, 09:24:19 am
Filing it away won't cause a missfire. A code like that would just be a very small amount to erase, it would hardly effect the pin doing it's job.
Not to mention over time the pin will wear down anyways.
And of course the ease of just replacing it. They'd have to regulate them like they do receivers.

But all this just ignores the elephant in the room. Crime will continue and guns will be modified. Police will only be able to link up a gun with a crime if they find a gun at random like they do now.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Distind on June 16, 2012, 09:53:26 am
^ That too. The smart ones ditch them after they use them. Granted, they do get found eventually most of the time. And don't forget that the majority of handguns used in crimes are stolen or bought off the black market (meaning they're illegal in the first place). No smart crim wants a gun with a paper trail on it.
Remember how few people are smart. There's definitely some value to this.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on June 16, 2012, 05:12:00 pm
Aren't there already ballistics tests for this sort of thing, to match up the marks on the bullet with individual guns?

IDK, but I've seen it on CSI: Miami like a bazillion times.

Also, there are situations where a crime can be committed with a stolen gun. If I steal another person's gun, commit a crime with it, and return it without the person I stole from ever finding out, then they can trace the bullets back to his gun and look, they're instantly a suspect in something that they weren't even involved in.

Also keep in mind that a smart criminal will attempt to get rid of their weapon as soon as they're finished using it. This could mean selling it on the black market through a fence. Since the black market is completely unregulated by these laws, the gun that was used to commit the crime essentially becomes undetectable and disappears off the radar entirely, until it shows up with another owner later.

And what's to stop people from finding more mechanical ways around this? I agree with Damen, this only hinders the law-abiding gun owners.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Stormwarden on June 16, 2012, 10:32:02 pm
Wykked: Don't believe everything you see on any CSI show, as there are tests they do more or less instantly, that would take weeks or months in the real world. That said, I'm compelled to agree that it's only hindering law-abiding owners. I DO see some value in it, though, just not as much as what  they're trying to sell.

As to the shell-catchers? I learned something today. I suppose their proper use is to allow handloading of the shells later?
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: DasFuchs on June 16, 2012, 10:52:56 pm
Wykked: Don't believe everything you see on any CSI show, as there are tests they do more or less instantly, that would take weeks or months in the real world. That said, I'm compelled to agree that it's only hindering law-abiding owners. I DO see some value in it, though, just not as much as what  they're trying to sell.

As to the shell-catchers? I learned something today. I suppose their proper use is to allow handloading of the shells later?
Hell, I just had one on my SKS to keep brass out of the field and to keep it from flinging up against the scope.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Eniliad on June 16, 2012, 11:03:49 pm
/me files this law under "pointless gesture toward gun control".
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Stormwarden on June 16, 2012, 11:12:05 pm
I got to fire an SKS as well, and I can see why you would need it (the one I used, owned by a relative, jammed like a box of jelly).
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 17, 2012, 12:24:28 am
Certainly not particularly useful against organised crime. Good thing most crime is disorganised, then.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: largeham on June 17, 2012, 12:31:10 am
"He [Vetinari] always says," said Lord Rust, "that if you're going to have crime, it might as well be orgnaized crime."
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 17, 2012, 02:44:19 am
No organised crime is better than organised crime.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 17, 2012, 02:46:43 am
Don't try to go up against Lord Vetinari there Freddy. You'll get you ass handed to you in a quarter of time it usually takes.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: DasFuchs on June 17, 2012, 07:37:54 am
I got to fire an SKS as well, and I can see why you would need it (the one I used, owned by a relative, jammed like a box of jelly).

Mine used to, A LOT. I took it to a friend with a mill that designed a small ramp that fit just under the bolt and butted up against the breach of the barrel. I used 30 rounders at the time and it solved the feeding issue right away. After that, fires smooth as glass.
Most of the popular jams are just bad cleaning since these things get dipped in cosmo before storage
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Askold on June 17, 2012, 10:47:19 am
Aren't there already ballistics tests for this sort of thing, to match up the marks on the bullet with individual guns?

It's not really all that reliable.

First of all: the bullet would have to be intact enough to make out the scratches left by the rifling, which isn't always the case. (Also, shotguns don't leave such markings.)

Second: Sometimes all that the rifling will reveal is the type of the gun used in the crime, sometimes even that isn't clear if several guns use the same cartridge and have similar rifling.

Third: Even if they did reveal the type of gun used, finding out the actual gun used in the crime would mean finding the unique imperfections and wear and tear in the gun which is even harder and these characteristic change as the gun is used. (Besides the criminal might just scrub the barrel really hard to change the barrel enough that it cannot be confirmed with 100% probability.)


As for proposed "fingerprinting" what if someone goes to the gun range to collect casings (some people collect them to reload their own ammo so there are legimite reasons for doing that) and plants them on the crime scene? (after gathering his own casings.)
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Damen on June 19, 2012, 01:29:51 am
As to the shell-catchers? I learned something today. I suppose their proper use is to allow handloading of the shells later?

And the proper use for big vibrators is your back and the proper use for glass pipes is with tobacco and the proper use for sandwich baggies is for sandwiches. Just goes to show how much importance people put on proper use. :P
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: StallChaser on June 19, 2012, 08:37:22 am
As to the shell-catchers? I learned something today. I suppose their proper use is to allow handloading of the shells later?

And the proper use for big vibrators is your back and the proper use for glass pipes is with tobacco and the proper use for sandwich baggies is for sandwiches. Just goes to show how much importance people put on proper use. :P

I put my sandwiches in a glass jar.
Title: Re: Gun debate: On codes on shell casings
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 19, 2012, 08:44:10 am
I put mine in my belly.