Author Topic: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law  (Read 52299 times)

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Offline Lithp

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #255 on: February 26, 2012, 01:22:28 am »
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When those arguments come up some people who support making an abortion harder to get back off.

Not because they don't agree. Because they know they'll lose if they do it that way. Now, if the bill becomes law, trying to support the rape argument in court might become more problematic. Then again, it might still work, by appealing to higher level courts.

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I do expect you to show how it has actually helped.

Are you really going to quibble over the details of what, precisely, it is that you expect me to do when you cannot?

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That would look very much like a win for the left, but when that bill is passed women would still have to get go though and external ultra-sound.  Which was the major intent of the bill to start with.

So long as they were not forced to wait, it WOULD be a win. Furthermore, you seem to think that I'm saying you have to EITHER argue that it is rape OR argue that it is an unnecessary procedure meant to make it harder to get an abortion. That is not the case. Once that small victory is achieved, there is nothing stopping people from going for the Grand Prize, which is shitcanning the entire bill. But that might not be reasonable to expect to happen, & something is better than nothing. The problem comes when you attempt to sabotage your own side by comparing a huge amount of your support base to Godwin's Law!

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #256 on: February 26, 2012, 01:36:33 am »
Not because they don't agree. Because they know they'll lose if they do it that way. Now, if the bill becomes law, trying to support the rape argument in court might become more problematic. Then again, it might still work, by appealing to higher level courts.

...and why would they lose, oh because they would not have the support.

Are you really going to quibble over the details of what, precisely, it is that you expect me to do when you cannot?

You said yourself a bunch of people think the bill really changed.  They think they got a win, when they did not.  Plus it has give room for the supporters of the bill to maneuver.

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So long as they were not forced to wait, it WOULD be a win. Furthermore, you seem to think that I'm saying you have to EITHER argue that it is rape OR argue that it is an unnecessary procedure meant to make it harder to get an abortion. That is not the case. Once that small victory is achieved, there is nothing stopping people from going for the Grand Prize, which is shitcanning the entire bill. But that might not be reasonable to expect to happen, & something is better than nothing. The problem comes when you attempt to sabotage your own side by comparing a huge amount of your support base to Godwin's Law!

You can try an argue both, but in the end the rape argument is going to get more attention, just as it has.  Yes, after a small victory you could go to get that whole bill thrown out, but it will be that much harder.  It makes it seem as if your side is unwilling to compromise.  You got your main argument and now you what more?  That is what the other side will say.  Not to mention how many people will stop paying attention because they think a victory means they won and the fight is over.

I'm going to call BS when I see it.  I don't like heated empty rhetoric from any side, even if it is the side I think is right.  This kind of thing takes away from any true debate on issue.  Following along when your side does it will not help that problem.
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Offline Lithp

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #257 on: February 26, 2012, 01:49:59 am »
I love how you're noting that the supporters of the bill are going to fight against everything the critics do, yet somehow, we made them do it.

Offline Podkayne

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #258 on: February 26, 2012, 01:54:21 am »
And something I'd oppose equally strongly.

As would I, but that is a tough fight to win.  At the end of the day abortion providers still might preform ultra-sounds to establish fetal age so they can be sure of which methods of abortion are an option.  That is unless there is another way to do it.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #259 on: February 26, 2012, 02:43:32 am »
Will you two just get it over already and fuck?

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Offline Radiation

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #260 on: February 26, 2012, 02:45:01 am »
Seriously, take it to the thread in AM. That's why it's there.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #261 on: February 26, 2012, 05:30:02 am »
Seriously, take it to the thread in AM. That's why it's there.

Technically, though, what they're arguing is on topic and not de-railing the thread... :-/
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #262 on: February 26, 2012, 09:24:24 am »
Seriously, take it to the thread in AM. That's why it's there.

If you really think we need to take it there we will.  We are however not discussing if the bills is rape or not, but we're discussing the affects of calling it so.
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #263 on: February 26, 2012, 09:36:31 am »
Counting the date from end of last period has been perfectly adequate for the past few centuries.

Yes, but it is not as accurate.  A difference of a week or so can mean a difference in what options are available, even early on.  It should be noted that even planned parenthood used ultrasounds before abortion procedures.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/abortion/abortion-pill-medication-abortion-4354.asp
Click on "What Happens During a Medication Abortion?" to expand.
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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #264 on: February 26, 2012, 12:46:56 pm »

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"Euthanasia"

Euthanasia suggests a "mercy killing." What I am looking for is a word that is like murder, but not defined in terms of being unlawful. "Killing" also does not work, because there are many types of killing--euthanasia, accidental death, suicide, murder, execution, etc.

If it is like murder, then why decriminalize it?
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Offline Eniliad

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #265 on: February 26, 2012, 04:14:30 pm »


Use it.
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Offline Shane for Wax

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #266 on: February 26, 2012, 04:24:38 pm »


I can't believe we're still arguing this crap.

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Offline Damen

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #267 on: February 28, 2012, 10:49:42 pm »
I think this is relevant. Not in Virginia, but Alabama.

http://www.care2.com/causes/discomfort-is-the-point-of-transvaginal-ultrasound-bill-sponsor-says.html
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When Alabama Republican Clay Scofield introduced a mandatory ultrasound proposal for women seeking abortions, he stated that he assumed most of the ultrasounds would be abdominal, since they could be used at six weeks or earlier.  His obvious misinformation was an attempt to shield himself from the accusation that he wanted to force all women seeking abortions to be manually probed in the process.

Now, he’s is much less concerned about appearing concerned about the feelings, both physically and emotionally, of the women involved.  As the debate over the transvaginal ultrasound proposal continues, Scofield says it’s good for women to feel some discomfort if they are trying to terminate a pregnancy. WAAYTV reporter Rebecca Shlien writes, “[Bill opponent on Scofield constituent Tristin] Basinger says this invasive ultrasound would be a physical and emotional discomfort: ‘I think they should see what they’re getting rid of, but I don’t think they should go through the whole humiliation.  Because I feel like they’re already humiliated enough as it is.’ But Scofield, the bill’s sponsor, feels that discomfort is the point, and this clearer sonogram would help women second guess the decision to end their pregnancy.”
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #268 on: February 29, 2012, 03:09:03 am »
WHICH IS ANOTHER ATTACK ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS YOU IDIOTS!

Ironbite-god....an unborn child can't vote, why the fuck do you even give a shit?