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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: booley on January 04, 2012, 09:24:06 pm

Title: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: booley on January 04, 2012, 09:24:06 pm
Sorry, this is just me ranting.

While having a debate with a conservative about health care, I mentioned I had friends and family with diabetes.
He replied that diabetes (at least type 2) is "self inflicted".  I have heard this before.  A person with diabetes has only themselves to blame because they made bad choices.  So they deserve neither sympathy nor help.  Certainly public money should not be used since they brought their misery on themselves.  IF they hadn't been so "irresponsible" then they would have avoided getting diabetes (or any other medical condition I guess.  I have heard others make the same argument for cancer)
At first I was angry.  Then I thought about it.  While not entirely true it's not entirely false either.  Choices we make and do affect our health, often much later in life.  Here are some choices that can negatively affect your health:
Smoking
Eating fast foods, especially as a child
Living with a smoker (especially as a child)
Drinking water out of  a plastic bottle
Being an auto mechanic or working on your car.
Having ever joined the military (even if you never actually fight)
Living ina  city.
Working on a farm.
Working in an office.
Living in certain other parts of the world.
In fact living on any part of the world.
Handling paper receipts.
Having children
Not having children
Having sex with anyone ever.
Having a cat
Getting an X ray
Taking antibiotics
Eating meat (any kind of meat)
Eating vegetables (any vegetables)
Breathing or drinking the water in many places
And on and on. I could probably think of  a thousand more.  Point is, I don't think the "personal responsibility" thing as conservatives I have talked too defined it really works for health care.  Since everyone is going to make some bad decision at some time that may effect their health (and some really are choice less choices) then no one could ever meet that standard.

Am I right in thinking that?  Because that is a central theme among conservatives: problems are personal problems, not societal.  You have only yourself to blame. yadda yadda.  On the surface the argument can seem appealing since we don't want to reward bad behavior.

But everyone makes bad decisions even if they don't realize they are bad at the time? (I certainly didn't know fast food was addictive when I was five)

Which means that yes, we have to help people even those that made "bad decisions"
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Auri-El on January 04, 2012, 09:33:40 pm
I agree with you. That's like saying someone who got in a car accident is at fault for getting in the car. Shit happens, and people get sick. Also, things like diabetes are partly genetic, so even if people make good choices that's no guarantee they won't get sick.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: TenfoldMaquette on January 04, 2012, 09:47:25 pm
If you avoid every situation where your choice might lead to a bad outcome, you might as well give up living now. While certain precautions can be taken to reduce risk, no one is immune to random chance or the malice (intentional or otherwise) of others. It's irrational to hold people accountable for things they cannot predict or avoid, and even if that were not the case, I would like to think that helping people because helping others is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself would still be the preferable course of action.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Smurfette Principle on January 04, 2012, 09:50:55 pm
If you avoid every situation where your choice might lead to a bad outcome, you might as well give up living now. While certain precautions can be taken to reduce risk, no one is immune to random chance or the malice (intentional or otherwise) of others. It's irrational to hold people accountable for things they cannot predict or avoid, and even if that were not the case, I would like to think that helping people because helping others is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself would still be the preferable course of action.

This. It's impossible to guard against every possibility, because merely living makes you susceptible to bad things.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: DasFuchs on January 04, 2012, 11:46:12 pm
Very, even sitting locked in a room for years on end leads to an unhealthy outcome.

The thing they seem to skip is if people have access to health care lots of things can be taken care of cheaply and effectively instead of waiting till whatever issue becomes major, costs a ton, and eventually gets dumped on everyone anyways because the person couldn't afford the treatment.
Always sad to here them scream socialism when the bill gets pushed on everyone under the current system.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: booley on January 04, 2012, 11:54:36 pm
Very, even sitting locked in a room for years on end leads to an unhealthy outcome.

The thing they seem to skip is if people have access to health care lots of things can be taken care of cheaply and effectively instead of waiting till whatever issue becomes major, costs a ton, and eventually gets dumped on everyone anyways because the person couldn't afford the treatment.
Always sad to here them scream socialism when the bill gets pushed on everyone under the current system.

That's the rub. I think they do know this, that so called socialized medicine is cheaper.

And they don't care.

It's the idea that some where someone they think undeserving is benefitting with money the con had to pay.  Even if the con benefits too, they dont' care.  They seem perfectly willing to shoulder that extra cost as long as those "unworthies" don't get a leg up.

It's crab mentality.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: DasFuchs on January 05, 2012, 12:01:28 am
Very, even sitting locked in a room for years on end leads to an unhealthy outcome.

The thing they seem to skip is if people have access to health care lots of things can be taken care of cheaply and effectively instead of waiting till whatever issue becomes major, costs a ton, and eventually gets dumped on everyone anyways because the person couldn't afford the treatment.
Always sad to here them scream socialism when the bill gets pushed on everyone under the current system.

That's the rub. I think they do know this, that so called socialized medicine is cheaper.

And they don't care.

It's the idea that some where someone they think undeserving is benefitting with money the con had to pay.  Even if the con benefits too, they dont' care.  They seem perfectly willing to shoulder that extra cost as long as those "unworthies" don't get a leg up.

It's crab mentality.

Well, it's like here in Michigan, there's a big rise in people bitching about unemployment bankrupting the state and crap like that, so it should be done away with because these people bitching don't need it. It's not fair they should have to pay for it.
Well it's not fair that people lost their jobs or got laid off because their companies aren't making enough money to keep running.
This "get rid of unemployment" group of people think they're paying for people that were fired for their own reasons, which isn't so. If you were fired the MUIA will not accept you.
Given a good majority of these people come from a Christian background, I wonder if they ever think about helping their fellow man rather than taking away.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Auri-El on January 05, 2012, 12:09:44 am
The irony*: A lot of those same people would be perfectly fine with receiving unemployment if they ever needed it.

*probably using the word incorrectly, but I don't give a damn
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 05, 2012, 12:16:14 am
One would expect that someone who hates people on unemployment would refuse to go on unemployment themselves.

The reality is that they often do go on unemployment themselves and don't see a problem with it.

That's the definition of irony.  And hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on January 05, 2012, 12:17:33 am
Wasn't there a government program in Canada that gave heroin addicts free heroin? And then instead of resorting to crime, they got a chance to check into rehab if they wanted to get off the drug?

Because I like that idea.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 05, 2012, 01:26:23 am
Wasn't there a government program in Canada that gave heroin addicts free heroin? And then instead of resorting to crime, they got a chance to check into rehab if they wanted to get off the drug?

Because I like that idea.

Vancouver started dispensing heroin to addicts about five or so years ago, though I'm not certain if they're still doing it.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 05, 2012, 01:28:07 am
People who get themselves injured or sick through their own negligence still have the same right to good health as everyone else.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 05, 2012, 01:38:27 am
People who get themselves injured or sick through their own negligence still have the same right to good health as everyone else.

Yeah, I've never liked the idea that a person's poor decisions automatically negate certain rights.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Art Vandelay on January 05, 2012, 01:39:30 am
The personal responsibility argument fails when compared to the economic argument (something conservatives should agree with). Denying health coverage costs money in the long run for the vast majority of people because it will mean they'll be physically unable to work as efficiently or at all as much as they would with good health coverage, meaning less taxes paid and less goods and services produced by the general economy, even if they got sick in the first place due to their own bad choices.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 05, 2012, 01:43:38 am
Funny how folks with this kind of attitude believe that tobacco companies, junk food suppliers et al DO deserve sympathy and support when they are taxed and regulated (taxed, and also regulated-the horror)!
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: deadpandoubter on January 05, 2012, 02:11:17 am
You commie liberal hippies. You seem to think that better healthcare will MAKE people healthier. That's crazy! Don't you know all doctors everywhere just want the money? Healthcare doesn't make you healthier; bootstraps do!
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Lt. Fred on January 05, 2012, 03:38:06 am
Funny story from Paul Krugman's book. Truman was trying to legislate universal health insurance, and he was looking like succeeding. Until the insurance industry ran a campaign in the South, telling everyone that 'dem blacks would also receive insurance, that they'd have to share hospitals and so on. 'Undeserving' doesn't mean what you think it means.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: StallChaser on January 05, 2012, 07:02:22 am
The personal responsibility + slippery slope argument is part of why the right wingnuts hate national health care so much.  Because personal choices affect the cost of health care, the government will control all your personal choices.  Never mind that simply by the fact that the government exists alongside people, personal choices will affect the cost of governing, leading to the same conclusion.

Its stupid, because health care costs will still average out to be much lower, but just you try to explain that to a determined conspiracy theorist...
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: kefkaownsall on January 05, 2012, 08:24:05 am
One thing I say in response to this argument is are they capable of making the proper decisions.
Like with diabetes you can eat better if you can afford it but so many foods that are cheap are high in fake sugar and salt and fat
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: TheUnknown on January 05, 2012, 10:01:28 am
Quote
Given a good majority of these people come from a Christian background, I wonder if they ever think about helping their fellow man rather than taking away.

Given the responses on Christian forums, their sole reason seems to be that 'helping their fellow man' should be charity work, which should be strictly voluntary.  They then say that the Bible is also against stealing, which they claim would be anything government mandated, like healthcare.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: D Laurier on January 05, 2012, 10:11:15 am
Wasn't there a government program in Canada that gave heroin addicts free heroin? And then instead of resorting to crime, they got a chance to check into rehab if they wanted to get off the drug?

Because I like that idea.

There was.
The Harperites have cut all funding. Now it's gone.
It was a good program, suplying clean needles, and a safe space. Councilors on hand to help addicts who wanted to get off the ride.
It saved lives... so the Harperites killed it.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: rageaholic on January 05, 2012, 10:38:17 am
I posted a rant about the same "personal responsibility" line on another forum.  I argued that it was bullshit for the same reasons pointed out her, shit happens. 

IMO, those who use that line are just being jerks under the guise of being responsible and moral.  They think nothing bad will ever happen to them because they take all the precautions and don't make careless mistakes.  This is ignoring that anyone can make careless mistakes and that you shouldn't have to suffer greatly for them. 

*Cue the story about how they made mistakes but owned up to them and accepted the "consequences"*
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: D Laurier on January 05, 2012, 12:06:59 pm
The problem is that you can be walking along on the sidewalk, and a drunk driver can still plow into you at 65 klicks, and turn your pelvis and femurs into gravel.
You can still get cancer from the radioactive shoe that was buried in your backyard before you were born.
There is nothing "careless" about your choices, but you still need expensive medical treatment. And if your private insurance decides to withold coverage, you are still left with a hospital bill for more than you will earn in this lifetime.
Public healthcare eliminates the problem of not being able to afford basic healthcare.
Vanity care such as breast implants and facelifts can still be run through private companies, but nobody should be forced to sell their home to pay for their child's lukemia treatments.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on January 05, 2012, 12:43:43 pm
Quote
That's the rub. I think they do know this, that so called socialized medicine is cheaper.

And they don't care.

It's the idea that some where someone they think undeserving is benefitting with money the con had to pay.  Even if the con benefits too, they dont' care.  They seem perfectly willing to shoulder that extra cost as long as those "unworthies" don't get a leg up.

It's crab mentality.

I have to give you karma for this. That's exactly it. Taxes for socialized medicine would be a hell of a lot cheaper than insurance, and you'd get a lot more out of it. But people would rather pay more and get less than have their money go towards helping someone else.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Canadian Mojo on January 05, 2012, 01:52:20 pm
I can see not being particularly sympathetic to somebody who has brought something on themselves, but that doesn't mean I won't help them... yay for basic human decency.

By the same token, if I have to choose between helping someone who luck has simply kicked in the balls and someone who knows better and did it anyway, I'll pick the poor unlucky bastard. If you have one kidney to transplant and have to decide between the type 2 diabetic who eats at McDonalds 4 times a day, never exercises and doesn't even try to manage their disease or the diabetic that tries to live properly who are you going to choose?  If you have limited resources, you are going to have to decide who gets them and it is perfectly reasonable to pick the one who is most likely to make the most of the opportunity.

Of course, there are a lot of the people out there who think any resources spent on aiding others is too much. Fuck them.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: booley on January 05, 2012, 09:06:27 pm
... They then say that the Bible is also against stealing, which they claim would be anything government mandated, like healthcare.

Doesn't " that "give unto ceasar what is ceasar's" thing cover that?
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on January 05, 2012, 09:31:06 pm
The problem with denying government healthcare to people based on their lifestyle choices is that you can't always tell if it was that exact cause that caused the illness, or if they are predisposed to it in some other way. For example, in my opinion it is wrong to refuse to treat an alcoholic's liver problem on the grounds that they chose to drink. You don't know if they are drinking because of trauma, if they are genetically predisposed to alcohol abuse, or if their liver problems were brought on by other causes entirely.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 06, 2012, 03:03:41 am
Not to mention that at one point, you're going to have to draw a line.  Otherwise, being born into a family with heart problems will be your fault.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 06, 2012, 11:29:11 am
Its stupid, because health care costs will still average out to be much lower, but just you try to explain that to a determined conspiracy theorist...

I can't remember who it was, but someone here used to have a sig that compared (and I quote) "math-ignorant cretins" to a deer caught in the headlights, in reference to the financial crisis. It seems appropriate here, too,
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Vene on January 06, 2012, 12:17:08 pm
Its stupid, because health care costs will still average out to be much lower, but just you try to explain that to a determined conspiracy theorist...

I can't remember who it was, but someone here used to have a sig that compared (and I quote) "math-ignorant cretins" to a deer caught in the headlights, in reference to the financial crisis. It seems appropriate here, too,
Oh yeah, I remember when I had that quote.
Every single cockeyed financial decision made by governments, companies and individuals is your fault. You should have known, you math-ignorant cretin; you should have found out what the numbers mean, but instead you just stared like a deer at the headlights unable to differentiate between a million and a billion.
http://masksoferis.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/math-rage/ (http://masksoferis.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/math-rage/)
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Cataclysm on January 06, 2012, 07:46:41 pm
Quote
Given a good majority of these people come from a Christian background, I wonder if they ever think about helping their fellow man rather than taking away.

Given the responses on Christian forums, their sole reason seems to be that 'helping their fellow man' should be charity work, which should be strictly voluntary.  They then say that the Bible is also against stealing, which they claim would be anything government mandated, like healthcare.

Someone should tell them that the government gave them and education. And roads.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Smurfette Principle on January 07, 2012, 02:47:35 am
Quote
Given a good majority of these people come from a Christian background, I wonder if they ever think about helping their fellow man rather than taking away.

Given the responses on Christian forums, their sole reason seems to be that 'helping their fellow man' should be charity work, which should be strictly voluntary.  They then say that the Bible is also against stealing, which they claim would be anything government mandated, like healthcare.

Someone should tell them that the government gave them and education. And roads.

Their argument would be that all that could be paid for by private donations, ignoring all the poor people for whom this isn't an option.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Wurdulac on January 07, 2012, 01:13:04 pm
Quote
Given a good majority of these people come from a Christian background, I wonder if they ever think about helping their fellow man rather than taking away.

Given the responses on Christian forums, their sole reason seems to be that 'helping their fellow man' should be charity work, which should be strictly voluntary.  They then say that the Bible is also against stealing, which they claim would be anything government mandated, like healthcare.

Someone should tell them that the government gave them and education. And roads.

Their argument would be that all that could be paid for by private donations, ignoring all the poor people for whom this isn't an option.

I love the "private donations will pay for everything" argument; because, as we all know, if the wealthy didn't have to pay taxes that go to support what few public services (schools, transportation, etc.) have been deemed vital, there would be even more money flowing into private charities than they would know what to do with.  Or some other such nonsense.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Oriet on January 07, 2012, 09:52:33 pm
Especially when you realise that during hard economic times is when people need charity the most but charities have the least to give, and when the economy is good and charities actually have a bit to give there's not many people who need it.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: TheUnknown on January 08, 2012, 09:30:29 am
This always gets me.  If people are so stingy that they won't pay taxes to the government for these things, why the hell would they willingly pay money to a charity?  Though, to answer my own question, it's probably because they can give as little as they want whenever they want. 
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Auri-El on January 08, 2012, 11:31:10 am
I think they also get a tax break for giving to charity? I don't know how it works, precisely, or if they're actually saving money that way.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: D Laurier on January 08, 2012, 02:33:37 pm
What I find most sad is this...
For the cost of maintaining any two aircraft carriers in their bloated fleet, the american government could provide quality healthcare and education (including healthy in-school breakfasts for all children under 14)  to every american citizen... and still have more aircraft carriers than any 7 possible rival navys.
Scrap a third carrier, and you can keep NASA going as well... And you STILL have more carriers than any 6 possible rivals.
You are sacrificing your children's health, education, and future... for what exactly???
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Cataclysm on January 08, 2012, 03:25:32 pm
So we can defeat them sand nig- I mean terrorists.

Obummer hates the millitary. He wants to cut funding! We really should be cutting funding to policemen and firefighters. They don't kill them terrorists.

</wingnut>
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: booley on January 08, 2012, 03:43:15 pm
....

Someone should tell them that the government gave them and education. And roads.

I  know I have.

To which they reply "What if a guy broke into your house, stole your stuff, then broke into your neighbors, stole his stuff and gave you some of it"

To which I reply.."That's not how stealing works."

and the conversation soon goes down hill from there.

I think the issue they have, at least in part, is choice.  Their arguments seem to often boil down to how they have no choice in paying taxes.

Which is true.

But that's because otherwise people who could pay wouldn't and the stuff we all need would never get done.

It doesn't occur to them I think that just because they have money that they can still be free loaders since they could pay and won't but still benefit.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Cataclysm on January 08, 2012, 04:12:47 pm
What's their compromise? Toll booths at every corner?

Also, they don't want their tax dollars going into health care, well I don't want my tax dollars going to "defense"
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: ironbite on January 08, 2012, 05:56:41 pm
Wouldn't be surprised if that's where they're going with this.
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: rookie on January 08, 2012, 09:12:48 pm

Also, they don't want their tax dollars going into health care, well I don't want my tax dollars going to "defense"

Stealing this!
Title: Re: Personal responsibility and health care
Post by: Lt. Fred on January 08, 2012, 11:21:36 pm
What's their compromise? Toll booths at every corner?

Also, they don't want their tax dollars going into health care, well I don't want my tax dollars going to "defense"

That's what I say. You can't have line-item veto over government spending because what about the pacifists? MLK never complained about being taxed to pay for Vietnam- he just said Vietnam was wrong.