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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Ultimate Paragon on May 03, 2014, 07:28:54 pm

Title: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 03, 2014, 07:28:54 pm
Here's the new flavor-of-the-month issue on the internet.  I'm of two minds on this.

On the one hand, I completely sympathize with this cause.  I think there are certain groups that could use more representation in literature.

On the other, I don't want this to be simple tokenism.  And if you're so concerned about a lack of diversity, why don't you write your own books?
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 03, 2014, 07:33:37 pm
Hashtag campaigns are the most pathetic kind of slactivism in existence. If you obviously don't care enough to put in an actual effort, how can you expect other people to give a shit?
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: chitoryu12 on May 03, 2014, 08:07:14 pm
And if you're so concerned about a lack of diversity, why don't you write your own books?

No matter which side of the debate you're on, "Why don't you do it yourself?" is a pretty crappy cop-out.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Søren on May 03, 2014, 08:21:58 pm
And if you're so concerned about a lack of diversity, why don't you write your own books?

No matter which side of the debate you're on, "Why don't you do it yourself?" is a pretty crappy cop-out.

Well forgive me if im wrong, but writing a book is so much easier and cheaper than making a movie. Plus having a non white character doesnt really have the same effect, you could just write black in the second sentence and be done with the entire thing
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Cataclysm on May 03, 2014, 08:37:36 pm
Hashtag campaigns are the most pathetic kind of slactivism in existence. If you obviously don't care enough to put in an actual effort, how can you expect other people to give a shit?

It raises awareness.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: chitoryu12 on May 03, 2014, 08:42:09 pm
And if you're so concerned about a lack of diversity, why don't you write your own books?

No matter which side of the debate you're on, "Why don't you do it yourself?" is a pretty crappy cop-out.

Well forgive me if im wrong, but writing a book is so much easier and cheaper than making a movie. Plus having a non white character doesnt really have the same effect, you could just write black in the second sentence and be done with the entire thing

It's theoretically easy to "write a book." Actually making worthwhile fiction instead of just letting your brain diarrhea over everything? Not so much. Trying to spread diversity through really crappy amatuer books doesn't exactly help encourage the better writers to do so.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 03, 2014, 09:09:29 pm
And if you're so concerned about a lack of diversity, why don't you write your own books?

No matter which side of the debate you're on, "Why don't you do it yourself?" is a pretty crappy cop-out.

Well forgive me if im wrong, but writing a book is so much easier and cheaper than making a movie. Plus having a non white character doesnt really have the same effect, you could just write black in the second sentence and be done with the entire thing

Have fun publishing it.

I think the problem is more fundamental than a lack of diversity. It's a lack of quality that is the problem. If our fiction industry wasn't utterly terrible at its job - witness the most popular publisher, Mills and Boon! - then it would also be more diverse.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 03, 2014, 09:11:13 pm
Hashtag campaigns are the most pathetic kind of slactivism in existence. If you obviously don't care enough to put in an actual effort, how can you expect other people to give a shit?

It raises awareness.

Awareness that even supposed "activists" don't give enough of a shit to make an actual effort.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Cataclysm on May 03, 2014, 09:32:27 pm
Hashtag campaigns are the most pathetic kind of slactivism in existence. If you obviously don't care enough to put in an actual effort, how can you expect other people to give a shit?

It raises awareness.

Awareness that even supposed "activists" don't give enough of a shit to make an actual effort.

Please tell me what activism you are doing. If you aren't donating money to every cause you believe in, then I guess you don't give a shit about those causes.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 03, 2014, 09:46:32 pm
Hashtag campaigns are the most pathetic kind of slactivism in existence. If you obviously don't care enough to put in an actual effort, how can you expect other people to give a shit?

It raises awareness.

Awareness that even supposed "activists" don't give enough of a shit to make an actual effort.

Please tell me what activism you are doing. If you aren't donating money to every cause you believe in, then I guess you don't give a shit about those causes.

The only shits Art gives are the ones he leaves in the mailboxes of attractive young women to let them know he's interested.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 03, 2014, 10:09:23 pm
Please tell me what activism you are doing. If you aren't donating money to every cause you believe in, then I guess you don't give a shit about those causes.
That's a retarded argument due to the fact that I never claimed to be an activist in the first place. I know full well that I'm not going to change the world, and I make to pretenses to the contrary. Though even if I did, it would still be irrelevant unless you believe that my own pretensions determine whether or not hashtag spamming is actually effective.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Cataclysm on May 03, 2014, 10:15:00 pm
Please tell me what activism you are doing. If you aren't donating money to every cause you believe in, then I guess you don't give a shit about those causes.
That's a retarded argument due to the fact that I never claimed to be an activist in the first place. I know full well that I'm not going to change the world, and I make to pretenses to the contrary. Though even if I did, it would still be irrelevant unless you believe that my own pretensions determine whether or not hashtag spamming is actually effective.

Well, then it's pretty hypocritical for you to call activists "pathetic" when you're doing absolutely nothing for causes.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 03, 2014, 10:39:08 pm
Please tell me what activism you are doing. If you aren't donating money to every cause you believe in, then I guess you don't give a shit about those causes.
That's a retarded argument due to the fact that I never claimed to be an activist in the first place. I know full well that I'm not going to change the world, and I make to pretenses to the contrary. Though even if I did, it would still be irrelevant unless you believe that my own pretensions determine whether or not hashtag spamming is actually effective.

Well, then it's pretty hypocritical for you to call activists "pathetic" when you're doing absolutely nothing for causes.

So by your own logic, these hashtag spamming slactivists are also hypocrites. Since, you know, they're criticising writers when the vast majority of them have probably never even written a short story, much less a novel.

In any case, I'll say it again. All this is irrelevant, since it doesn't in any case contradict my point that hashtag spamming does absolutely fuck all.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 04, 2014, 04:57:23 am
There's already diversity in books, but invariably it gets thrown out the window whenever anyone feels like adapting them to something.

Can we say "Wizard of Earthsea" getting TWO adaptations, both of which cast the black main character as a white european male?
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 04, 2014, 09:04:38 am
The No More Racist Bullshit and Don't Be a Prick Act (2014).

From this day forth.

Hollywood may not adapt any book and change the ethnic identity or gender of any character. Any executive producer demanding such shall be punished by a lifetime ban from any form of entertainment work.

All films shall include at least one lead female role. Film companies are obliged to make reasonable steps to include non-white major characters, and will face a fine should their films not uphold a certain quota.

Any executive meddling in a project shall be punished by execution. All employees on the corporate side of the industry are legally obliged to record themselves every day repeating "the artists know their craft better than I know mine" three times. Failure to do so will be punished by execution.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 04, 2014, 09:17:10 am
Hrm...in lieu of execution, how about exiling them to a tiny little nothing of an island and filming the resulting carnage for a reality show?  At least, that way, you'd make some money out of the deal.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 04, 2014, 09:18:06 am
All films shall include at least one lead female role. Film companies are obliged to make reasonable steps to include non-white major characters, and will face a fine should their films not uphold a certain quota.
I can get behind the other parts. This, however, is a terrible idea.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 04, 2014, 10:41:33 am
Yeaaaaaaaaaah...what if it were a world where there were only white men because of some horrid disease?  That's severely limiting, creatively, and it'd only lead to even MORE tokenization.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on May 04, 2014, 11:03:49 am
It also contradicts the bit about not changing the race/gender of characters in adaptations of novels.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Sigmaleph on May 04, 2014, 11:54:01 am
Hollywood may not adapt any book and change the ethnic identity or gender of any character. Any executive producer demanding such shall be punished by a lifetime ban from any form of entertainment work.

You must really hate Lucy Liu's Watson.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: dpareja on May 04, 2014, 01:18:20 pm
Hollywood may not adapt any book and change the ethnic identity or gender of any character. Any executive producer demanding such shall be punished by a lifetime ban from any form of entertainment work.

All films shall include at least one lead female role. Film companies are obliged to make reasonable steps to include non-white major characters, and will face a fine should their films not uphold a certain quota.

And when the book being adapted has only white male characters as main characters?
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 04, 2014, 02:17:28 pm
Hollywood may not adapt any book and change the ethnic identity or gender of any character. Any executive producer demanding such shall be punished by a lifetime ban from any form of entertainment work.

All films shall include at least one lead female role. Film companies are obliged to make reasonable steps to include non-white major characters, and will face a fine should their films not uphold a certain quota.

And when the book being adapted has only white male characters as main characters?


Then, fuck the book and the author's creative vision!  DIVERSITY!
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Yla on May 04, 2014, 05:35:48 pm
I am vaguely sympathetic to these goals, but Freedom of Art trumps.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: m52nickerson on May 04, 2014, 06:35:24 pm
The No More Racist Bullshit and Don't Be a Prick Act (2014).

From this day forth.

Hollywood may not adapt any book and change the ethnic identity or gender of any character. Any executive producer demanding such shall be punished by a lifetime ban from any form of entertainment work.

All films shall include at least one lead female role. Film companies are obliged to make reasonable steps to include non-white major characters, and will face a fine should their films not uphold a certain quota.

Any executive meddling in a project shall be punished by execution. All employees on the corporate side of the industry are legally obliged to record themselves every day repeating "the artists know their craft better than I know mine" three times. Failure to do so will be punished by execution.

Act pass May 4, 2014 and struck down one week later by the US Supreme Court for violating the First Amendment.

The only way this is going to change is if people change there spending habits.  You all know the old saying, money talks and...well you know the rest.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 04, 2014, 06:41:08 pm
The No More Racist Bullshit and Don't Be a Prick Act (2014).

From this day forth.

Hollywood may not adapt any book and change the ethnic identity or gender of any character. Any executive producer demanding such shall be punished by a lifetime ban from any form of entertainment work.

All films shall include at least one lead female role. Film companies are obliged to make reasonable steps to include non-white major characters, and will face a fine should their films not uphold a certain quota.

Any executive meddling in a project shall be punished by execution. All employees on the corporate side of the industry are legally obliged to record themselves every day repeating "the artists know their craft better than I know mine" three times. Failure to do so will be punished by execution.

Act pass May 4, 2014 and struck down one week later by the US Supreme Court for violating the First Amendment.
Yeah, it would be even less constitutional than the Bill for Anti Online Bad-Mouthing.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: WatermelonRat on May 04, 2014, 07:03:38 pm
While I agree with the general sentiment, as an aspiring author, I get a bit nervous when things like this come up. I'd like to see more diversity in literature, but at times these discussions can lead to overemphasis on race in a story, overlooking plot and characterization.

As it happens, the protagonist in the novel I'm currently writing is Korean. I've spent over a year crafting her into a unique and interesting character, and if I manage to get published, I don't want her race to be the the first thing people mention when discussing it, even if it's in the form of praise. It would feel like a reduction of her character.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 04, 2014, 08:36:18 pm
Yeaaaaaaaaaah...what if it were a world where there were only white men because of some horrid disease?  That's severely limiting, creatively, and it'd only lead to even MORE tokenization.

Hence why you judge all the published work from the entire year, instead of using the individual film as a basis for measurement. Master and Commander or Saving Private Ryan is okay, but if you're only making films about white men, you're doing something criminally wrong.

The No More Racist Bullshit and Don't Be a Prick Act (2014).

From this day forth.

Hollywood may not adapt any book and change the ethnic identity or gender of any character. Any executive producer demanding such shall be punished by a lifetime ban from any form of entertainment work.

All films shall include at least one lead female role. Film companies are obliged to make reasonable steps to include non-white major characters, and will face a fine should their films not uphold a certain quota.

Any executive meddling in a project shall be punished by execution. All employees on the corporate side of the industry are legally obliged to record themselves every day repeating "the artists know their craft better than I know mine" three times. Failure to do so will be punished by execution.

Act pass May 4, 2014 and struck down one week later by the US Supreme Court for violating the First Amendment.

The only way this is going to change is if people change there spending habits.  You all know the old saying, money talks and...well you know the rest.

While that is true, clearly some action needs to take place. Hollywood's racism is not an actual response to market pressure, as has been demonstrated at least a million times; this is intrinsic, not extrinsic. My thought is that something from the outside needs to step in and make change.

Now, my Act is obviously tongue in cheek, but wouldn't it be nice if some broad coordinating body or educational organisation kicked the goddamn industry in the head until it came unstuck from its ass?
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: m52nickerson on May 05, 2014, 02:33:26 pm
Any outside attempt to force Hollywood into more diversity will fail.  If you make a rule that say book adaptations can't change the ethnicity of a person and Hollywood thing that movie may not do as well without the which the movie does not get made.  As it is right now movie studios are not taking chances. 

If you have some type of quota system you as simple going to get very low budget moves introduced to balance things out.

 
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: I am lizard on May 05, 2014, 03:49:39 pm
Say, why is it no one ever talks about LGBT representation, like more non sexualized canon lesbians or trans people in non-joke non-stereotypical roles.

Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 05, 2014, 04:12:12 pm
Say, why is it no one ever talks about LGBT representation, like more non sexualized canon lesbians or trans people in non-joke non-stereotypical roles.



They do talk about it, but the problem is that such things are invisible.  A character could be lesbian, but if no one mentions it or if said character never interacts with a female in a way that proves they are lesbian, then no one will know.  (See: Dumbledore for a gay male example)

Race, however, is very apparent.  Culture is also apparent in the usage of clothing and mannerisms.  These things are highly visible, and human beings are very visual creatures.  (Though oddly enough, our sense of smell is closest tied to our memory.)

...

I can't decide whether a TV that emits scents appropriate to certain scenes would be an excellent idea or a terrible idea.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 05, 2014, 05:54:12 pm
Any outside attempt to force Hollywood into more diversity will fail.  If you make a rule that say book adaptations can't change the ethnicity of a person and Hollywood thing that movie may not do as well without the which the movie does not get made.  As it is right now movie studios are not taking chances. 

If you have some type of quota system you as simple going to get very low budget moves introduced to balance things out.

Oh, I mean like the academy or the union or something. Or a properly enthusiastic activist group.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: I am lizard on May 05, 2014, 06:00:44 pm
Any outside attempt to force Hollywood into more diversity will fail.  If you make a rule that say book adaptations can't change the ethnicity of a person and Hollywood thing that movie may not do as well without the which the movie does not get made.  As it is right now movie studios are not taking chances. 

If you have some type of quota system you as simple going to get very low budget moves introduced to balance things out.

Oh, I mean like the academy or the union or something. Or a properly enthusiastic activist group.
Or getting people to buy more books with POC characters(pardon the Tumblespeek)
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: m52nickerson on May 05, 2014, 06:18:00 pm
Any outside attempt to force Hollywood into more diversity will fail.  If you make a rule that say book adaptations can't change the ethnicity of a person and Hollywood thing that movie may not do as well without the which the movie does not get made.  As it is right now movie studios are not taking chances. 

If you have some type of quota system you as simple going to get very low budget moves introduced to balance things out.

Oh, I mean like the academy or the union or something. Or a properly enthusiastic activist group.

Those groups would have to make enough nose that movie viewers took notice and cost the movie studios money.  So in the end it still comes down to society demanding, with their wallets, more diversity.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 05, 2014, 08:15:42 pm
Any outside attempt to force Hollywood into more diversity will fail.  If you make a rule that say book adaptations can't change the ethnicity of a person and Hollywood thing that movie may not do as well without the which the movie does not get made.  As it is right now movie studios are not taking chances. 

If you have some type of quota system you as simple going to get very low budget moves introduced to balance things out.

Oh, I mean like the academy or the union or something. Or a properly enthusiastic activist group.

Those groups would have to make enough nose

(http://theeagleonline.com.ng/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Nose.jpg)
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Sigmaleph on May 05, 2014, 10:40:28 pm
I can't decide whether a TV that emits scents appropriate to certain scenes would be an excellent idea or a terrible idea.

The first problem: smells are chemicals in the air. If your TV has a sufficiently wide range of chemicals to synthesize, it can probably be used to create some sort of poison gas, either intentionally or by accident.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 05, 2014, 10:43:07 pm
I can't decide whether a TV that emits scents appropriate to certain scenes would be an excellent idea or a terrible idea.

The first problem: smells are chemicals in the air. If your TV has a sufficiently wide range of chemicals to synthesize, it can probably be used to create some sort of poison gas, either intentionally or by accident.

The second problem: human beings react to some scents with the urge to vomit.

A tv show that makes you vomit is baaaaaad.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Askold on May 05, 2014, 11:35:20 pm
I can't decide whether a TV that emits scents appropriate to certain scenes would be an excellent idea or a terrible idea.

The first problem: smells are chemicals in the air. If your TV has a sufficiently wide range of chemicals to synthesize, it can probably be used to create some sort of poison gas, either intentionally or by accident.

The second problem: human beings react to some scents with the urge to vomit.

A tv show that makes you vomit is baaaaaad.

Then why did they put [random show that I hate] on TV then?
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Søren on May 05, 2014, 11:41:45 pm
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 06, 2014, 12:01:05 am
I can't decide whether a TV that emits scents appropriate to certain scenes would be an excellent idea or a terrible idea.

The first problem: smells are chemicals in the air. If your TV has a sufficiently wide range of chemicals to synthesize, it can probably be used to create some sort of poison gas, either intentionally or by accident.

The second problem: human beings react to some scents with the urge to vomit.

A tv show that makes you vomit is baaaaaad.

Then why did they put [random show that I hate] on TV then?

Because of [reasons]
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: I am lizard on May 06, 2014, 12:23:39 am
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it
Yeah, often Hollywood *cough*whiteguys will just throw in a non-white character and call it quits. Pro tip:make sure every story or bit of character development relating to them reminds us of how non-white they are.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: TheUnknown on May 06, 2014, 12:46:41 am
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it
Yeah, often Hollywood *cough*whiteguys will just throw in a non-white character and call it quits. Pro tip:make sure every story or bit of character development relating to them reminds us of how non-white they are.

Also: make sure to kill them off quickly once the conflict appears so you can resume focus on the white people who actually matter to the story.  Black Guy Dies First, and all that.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: I am lizard on May 06, 2014, 12:50:23 am
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it
Yeah, often Hollywood *cough*whiteguys will just throw in a non-white character and call it quits. Pro tip:make sure every story or bit of character development relating to them reminds us of how non-white they are.

Also: make sure to kill them off quickly once the conflict appears so you can resume focus on the white people who actually matter to the story.  Black Guy Dies First, and all that.
Or if they're lesbians, make sure they make out and do the sex thing so wealthy 12 year olds will buy tickets.
And don't forget:all Asians are magic.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 06, 2014, 07:59:57 am
Any outside attempt to force Hollywood into more diversity will fail.  If you make a rule that say book adaptations can't change the ethnicity of a person and Hollywood thing that movie may not do as well without the which the movie does not get made.  As it is right now movie studios are not taking chances. 

If you have some type of quota system you as simple going to get very low budget moves introduced to balance things out.

Oh, I mean like the academy or the union or something. Or a properly enthusiastic activist group.

Those groups would have to make enough nose that movie viewers took notice and cost the movie studios money.  So in the end it still comes down to society demanding, with their wallets, more diversity.

Nah. Money has never been, primarily, the reason for this approach to art. It doesn't matter how well proper films sell.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: chitoryu12 on May 06, 2014, 01:54:27 pm
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it

That's always been my problem with attempting to force diversity. Too often the people demanding more diversity don't want anything to be changed except the character's skin tone and hairstyle. Now, I wouldn't give two shits if I played as Jason Lopez in Far Cry 3 if he was still the same character as Jason Brody. But I would question the point of making him a Latino character for no purpose other than surface "diversity" and to meet a quota of some kind.

Regardless of what we desire, the race of a character does have an impact. Our world history and extremely diverse culture means that the background of a character greatly affects how we view them. Even someone who's not bigoted will still acknowledge that a black guy is black and acknowledge their racial history, especially in a country like the United States that only just ended segregation within a human lifetime and was literally enslaving them 150 years ago.

The irony behind trying to force a character into a different race, or demanding changes in racial background without changing the character, is that it ends up implying that the only thing that matters to them is the race.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Random Gal on May 10, 2014, 06:54:08 pm
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it
Yeah, often Hollywood *cough*whiteguys will just throw in a non-white character and call it quits. Pro tip:make sure every story or bit of character development relating to them reminds us of how non-white they are.

Also: make sure to kill them off quickly once the conflict appears so you can resume focus on the white people who actually matter to the story.  Black Guy Dies First, and all that.
Or if they're lesbians, make sure they make out and do the sex thing so wealthy 12 year olds will buy tickets.
And don't forget:all Asians are magic.

I haven't seen that stereotype much, to be honest.

Native Americans, on the other hand, are always either magic (post-1970s) or savages (pre-1970s). Along with the occasional goofy sidekick role.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: I am lizard on May 10, 2014, 07:12:14 pm
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it
Yeah, often Hollywood *cough*whiteguys will just throw in a non-white character and call it quits. Pro tip:make sure every story or bit of character development relating to them reminds us of how non-white they are.

Also: make sure to kill them off quickly once the conflict appears so you can resume focus on the white people who actually matter to the story.  Black Guy Dies First, and all that.
Or if they're lesbians, make sure they make out and do the sex thing so wealthy 12 year olds will buy tickets.
And don't forget:all Asians are magic.

I haven't seen that stereotype much, to be honest.

Native Americans, on the other hand, are always either magic (post-1970s) or savages (pre-1970s). Along with the occasional goofy sidekick role.
Oh sorry, Asians are just able to fix any computer and probably know something about ninjas.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Random Gal on May 10, 2014, 07:20:27 pm
I always found meeting a quota of ethnicity a bit weird. I see and agree with the point of it, but forcing it seems...creepy

Okay this is a bit white, hey you, youre out...okay youre black so you can come in, okay we also need an asian or two.

And in writing. Again its a little irky to assume everybody in a typical novel is white. But if you force people to make it more ethnic, youre just gonna get people going

"Oh, its whitewashed *inserts the word asian into a couple of character descriptions* done."

At least thats what i would do, just to irritate others by being blasé about it
Yeah, often Hollywood *cough*whiteguys will just throw in a non-white character and call it quits. Pro tip:make sure every story or bit of character development relating to them reminds us of how non-white they are.

Also: make sure to kill them off quickly once the conflict appears so you can resume focus on the white people who actually matter to the story.  Black Guy Dies First, and all that.
Or if they're lesbians, make sure they make out and do the sex thing so wealthy 12 year olds will buy tickets.
And don't forget:all Asians are magic.

I haven't seen that stereotype much, to be honest.

Native Americans, on the other hand, are always either magic (post-1970s) or savages (pre-1970s). Along with the occasional goofy sidekick role.
Oh sorry, Asians are just able to fix any computer and probably know something about ninjas.
And they all know kung fu.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 02:46:32 am
What about POC.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 04:09:20 am
If there isn't, we should make one.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Sigmaleph on May 25, 2014, 11:44:17 am
There is (http://racialbechdel.tumblr.com/thetest), and it's exactly what you'd think (A movie must have at least two non-white characters who talk about something that isn't a white person)
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Igor on May 25, 2014, 11:58:24 am
I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, myself. On the one hand, I agree that there should be more decent literature with minorities in non-stereotypical roles, but on the other hand as a writer I take issue with anyone telling me what to write (or what I ought to be writing about, as the case may be), and I don't like the idea that an author should be criticized for their choice of characters. Also anything coming close to a quota system will only encourage tokenism, which I think we can all agree is generally a bad thing ("Oops, better put a black character in here or I'll get panned", it's not exactly a healthy writing environment).

Though I agree fully when it comes to film adaptations changing a character's race, that's kinda scummy. I think characters should be cast as close to the description given in the source material as possible.

(Incidentally, the Otherland series and The Girl Who Saved the King of Sweden both feature black South African women as main/major characters and both happen to be incredible. Dunno if that counts as "minority" due to the setting, but still! Highly recommended, both.)
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 26, 2014, 07:08:13 am
I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, myself. On the one hand, I agree that there should be more decent literature with minorities in non-stereotypical roles, but on the other hand as a writer I take issue with anyone telling me what to write

Too bad. If you want to make money out of writing, someone is going to tell you exactly what to write about and he will be the worst possible person for the job. You will spend probably as much effort trying to convince him not to utterly shit on your brilliant idea as you will developing it - and even then, even if you're a genius well-known author, the Worst Author In The World may still ruin it. This is what happened to Once Upon a Time in America, Firefly, the Wire...

Hollywood has spent eighty years developing an iron-clad system whereby exactly the wrong person will get the job. That's what I'm mad about.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Radiation on May 30, 2014, 08:30:17 pm
Any outside attempt to force Hollywood into more diversity will fail.  If you make a rule that say book adaptations can't change the ethnicity of a person and Hollywood thing that movie may not do as well without the which the movie does not get made.  As it is right now movie studios are not taking chances. 

If you have some type of quota system you as simple going to get very low budget moves introduced to balance things out.


Oh, I mean like the academy or the union or something. Or a properly enthusiastic activist group.



Those groups would have to make enough nose

(http://theeagleonline.com.ng/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Nose.jpg)

Ok, this made me crack up laughing that I nearly choked on my food. Thanks Magus!

Seriously, a group that I would like to see in movies and books are characters that are fat (especially women) and not in a stereotypical role, what I mean is characters that aren't always goofy, stupid, eating too much, loved starved, etc. I would love to see a good, strong, fat women playing something like a superhero or something. I think that fat people overall should have better representation in the media.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 30, 2014, 10:21:30 pm
I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, myself. On the one hand, I agree that there should be more decent literature with minorities in non-stereotypical roles, but on the other hand as a writer I take issue with anyone telling me what to write

Too bad. If you want to make money out of writing, someone is going to tell you exactly what to write about and he will be the worst possible person for the job. You will spend probably as much effort trying to convince him not to utterly shit on your brilliant idea as you will developing it - and even then, even if you're a genius well-known author, the Worst Author In The World may still ruin it. This is what happened to Once Upon a Time in America, Firefly, the Wire...

Hollywood has spent eighty years developing an iron-clad system whereby exactly the wrong person will get the job. That's what I'm mad about.

Then, I have a counter-suggestion...

To become an accredited editor (not as in "you're now allowed to be an editor" more like "people will now take you seriously as an editor"), you must have written at least short story of acceptable quality that relies, as little as possible, on any negative stereotypes.  The story must be deemed "of acceptably quality" by, at minimum, three well-known authors of quality work (think Stephen King, not Stephanie Meyer).

To keep your accreditation as an editor, you must undergo a yearly evaluation of your editing by a randomly-chosen panel of three to five quality authors, and no one author can judge your work for more than two consecutive years, and will only be allowed to judge your works again after a three year period has passed since they were last selected for the panel that is judging your work.  To pass muster, you must prove that you have a comprehensive knowledge and grasp of the English language, the ability to consistently and accurately point out things such as plot holes, overused gimmicks, bigoted caricatures, et al, and that you have proven that you show proper respect to the author whose work(s) that you're editing.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 31, 2014, 12:44:17 am
I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, myself. On the one hand, I agree that there should be more decent literature with minorities in non-stereotypical roles, but on the other hand as a writer I take issue with anyone telling me what to write

Too bad. If you want to make money out of writing, someone is going to tell you exactly what to write about and he will be the worst possible person for the job. You will spend probably as much effort trying to convince him not to utterly shit on your brilliant idea as you will developing it - and even then, even if you're a genius well-known author, the Worst Author In The World may still ruin it. This is what happened to Once Upon a Time in America, Firefly, the Wire...

Hollywood has spent eighty years developing an iron-clad system whereby exactly the wrong person will get the job. That's what I'm mad about.

Then, I have a counter-suggestion...

To become an accredited editor (not as in "you're now allowed to be an editor" more like "people will now take you seriously as an editor"), you must have written at least short story of acceptable quality that relies, as little as possible, on any negative stereotypes.  The story must be deemed "of acceptably quality" by, at minimum, three well-known authors of quality work (think Stephen King, not Stephanie Meyer).

To keep your accreditation as an editor, you must undergo a yearly evaluation of your editing by a randomly-chosen panel of three to five quality authors, and no one author can judge your work for more than two consecutive years, and will only be allowed to judge your works again after a three year period has passed since they were last selected for the panel that is judging your work.  To pass muster, you must prove that you have a comprehensive knowledge and grasp of the English language, the ability to consistently and accurately point out things such as plot holes, overused gimmicks, bigoted caricatures, et al, and that you have proven that you show proper respect to the author whose work(s) that you're editing.

Absolutely. 100% dead on, I think.

But that still leaves the serious threat of corporate meddling. What do you do about Corporate? Maybe the way to go is to prevent actual business people from running arts companies. Either run them in common with a rotating business leader, or have an executive promoted from the ranks of actual artists.
Title: Re: #WeNeedDiverseBooks
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 31, 2014, 08:11:18 am
I dunno...personally, I don't like a bunch of corporate dickheads being in charge of artists in the first place.  That happened with EA and their reputation has YET to recover fully.  Their role should be "find a way to make this marketable," but without the stranglehold they and stockholders have over the creative process.  How you'd do that, however, is not a question I can currently answer, alas.