Author Topic: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit  (Read 15908 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #90 on: September 08, 2017, 09:03:04 pm »
Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

I'm not "defending" them. Defending their constitutional rights, sure. But I despise them.

Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

Well, I sort of am, but only insofar as I defend their right to the peaceful expression of their views because I want to ensure that I can do the same.

On the other hand, if they get their way, you won't be able to do the same.

Which is why I don't defend them any further and would exercise my free speech to speak against what they say.


Indeed. The best response to hate speech is not to suppress it, but to confront it.
And you spend most of your time confronting people who confront Nazis. Good use of all that freedom. /s

Offline SCarpelan

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2017, 09:45:13 pm »
The point behind Antifa's actions is that fascism and hate speech can find fertile ground to grow if not suppressed directly. This is actually something I agree with them about: it's naive to think rational arguments are always enough if dissatisfied people and are given an easy, weaker enemy (minorities) to blame for their troubles and a group that makes them feel more safe. Unfortunately, people are easily guided by their emotions, specially fear that can override any rational arguments. Part of what keeps people who have sympathies to far-right ideologies expressing their feelings is the fear of social consequences of doing so. When the Overton window moves far enough to the right by someone like Trump influencing the public discourse there needs to be something to make sure there are consequences to spreading hate. In a stabile society their ideology might not find much room to grow but when enough people are dissatisfied open hate can become infectious.

Also, hate speech directly influences the people it is targeting. Having people like the Charlottesville crowd chanting "Whose streets? Our streets!" or "You (/Jews) will not replace us!" is terror tactic targeting the minority groups*. Just like terrorists striking civilian targets it is meant to spread fear and influence society - in this case to make the minorities fearful and feel too vulnerable to fight their oppression. I'd much rather have the racists be afraid to express their opinion than have the members of the minorities be afraid just because who they are.

The anarchist / Antifa stance is that the state as represented by the legal system isn't interested in protecting the oppressed people from this kind of terror and the liberal non-violent approach doesn't help either. Personally, I think they do have a point but due to there being also overreactions and actions I cannot accept I neither unequivocally support nor condemn the Antifa movement as a whole.

*As a side note: they tried to march through a black neighborhood. They were chased away by the neighborhood residents before the counter protesters had time to react to this turn of events. IMO this is a great example of threat of violence (or actual violence, I don't know the details) being used in self defence and shows that the locals were not willing to submit to terror tactics.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 12:01:29 am by SCarpelan »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2017, 02:15:44 am »
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right , the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:17:43 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2017, 02:19:21 am »
And it's a lot faster to say, "They're violent too!" than what you posted, Tol, which is why violence from the left is counterproductive.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Svata

  • Doesn't even fucking know anymore
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1542
  • Gender: Male
  • No, seriously, fuck astrology.
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2017, 02:44:47 am »
So the nazis get to carry torches, wave guns, and run over people, and that's expected because they're nazis, nothing we can do about it. No matter than every time they gather, people die, can't stop them gathering. But don't you DARE punch one, or you're just as awful and violent and morally equivalent, and no one will listen to you, even though the other side is NAZIS.
"Politician" is the occupational equivalent of "Florida".

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2017, 02:47:08 am »
So the nazis get to carry torches, wave guns, and run over people, and that's expected because they're nazis, nothing we can do about it. No matter than every time they gather, people die, can't stop them gathering. But don't you DARE punch one, or you're just as awful and violent and morally equivalent, and no one will listen to you, even though the other side is NAZIS.

I didn't say that. But consider the attention span of the average person these days.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2017, 02:51:44 am »
And it's a lot faster to say, "They're violent too!" than what you posted, Tol, which is why violence from the left is counterproductive.
Yeah, but that wasn't what I said.

"More", not "too" and by not merely "too" I mean "fucking massively". It's not "the right are violent too" it's "the far right are fucking insanely violent and Antifa is at worst a bit violent-sometimes." Not only are the far right more violent the far right are ideologically committed to slavery and genocide which is as violent as it gets.

Also when the police won't offer the left the same level of protection as the right, when they become partisan, it's pacifism that becomes counterproductive unless you're relying on the media to save you with sympathetic treatment.

If that's the case then, good luck!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:55:28 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Svata

  • Doesn't even fucking know anymore
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1542
  • Gender: Male
  • No, seriously, fuck astrology.
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2017, 03:48:19 am »
He was (rather obviously IMO) meaning its easier for the right to say "but they're violent too" referring to Antifa. To excuse not backing them up against the Nazis, and to try to create the idea of equivalence among the less-far right, the center, and even the moderate left.


I disagree with him too, but don't deliberately misinterpret what he's saying.
"Politician" is the occupational equivalent of "Florida".

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2017, 04:19:00 am »
He was (rather obviously IMO) meaning its easier for the right to say "but they're violent too" referring to Antifa. To excuse not backing them up against the Nazis, and to try to create the idea of equivalence among the less-far right, the center, and even the moderate left.


I disagree with him too, but don't deliberately misinterpret what he's saying.
Fair enough. Apologies.

But the right will call left wing protesters violent as a group the moment there's any sort of fracas at a rally, disavowing Antifa won't alter that. Antifa packing up and going home forever wouldn't alter that. I do however find that tactically, purely committing yourself to nonviolence only works in certain contexts. Yes Antifa do some dumb shit but Cornel West for one was glad they were there when confederate flag waving fashy-heads were circling and the cops weren't stopping them.

In any case the OP was posted not say "Antifa are wonderful", just to laugh at people who'll try to paint them as babby eating demon hordes. They are what they are.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 04:21:13 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Lana Reverse

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
  • Gender: Female
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2017, 12:22:57 pm »
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right , the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson. They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?
Beware those who hate the rich more than they love the poor.

Offline Eiki-mun

  • der Löwe aus Mitternacht
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Gender: Male
  • On the fields of Breitenfeld.
    • Main Personal Blog
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #100 on: September 09, 2017, 01:26:27 pm »
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right , the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson. They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?

You know, I will admit something. I'd like to say "of course I would, killing someone is an evil and by definition irredeemable action". But at times, I think it would depend on the target. In my more cynical moments, I have thought and argued that the left needs to "put some points on the board", you might say. And if the person killed were, say, a Klansman, or a far-right wacko, I might not feel too bad about it.

That's my honest answer.
There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #101 on: September 09, 2017, 08:25:45 pm »
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right , the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson. They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?
Eh, depends.

If there's someone trying to kill you or those you love there's a bit of wriggle room. In any case it'd take less than that for me to condemn them. I've said they do some dumb already. I just think with violent far right factions on the rise they can form a necesarry function for when the cops prefer to wait it out like they did in Charlottsville and Berkely.

Cops do their job properly, self defence against Nazis unecessary.

Anyway, it's high standards coming from someone who hasn't devoted any energy to condemning the right wing hordes in Charlotsville after they killed Heather!

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2017, 08:29:08 pm »
Also Lana, you are not FSTDT's chief prosecutor. Henceforth I reserve the right to answer your ongoing abuse of the direct question rule with "fuck you", or similar. Kay?

Offline Lana Reverse

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
  • Gender: Female
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2017, 08:40:46 pm »
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right , the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson. They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?
Eh, depends.

If there's someone trying to kill you or those you love there's a bit of wriggle room. In any case it'd take less than that for me to condemn them. I've said they do some dumb already. I just think with violent far right factions on the rise they can form a necesarry function for when the cops prefer to wait it out like they did in Charlottsville and Berkely.

Cops do their job properly, self defence against Nazis unecessary.

Anyway, it's high standards coming from someone who hasn't devoted any energy to condemning the right wing hordes in Charlotsville after they killed Heather!

I thought I did, but alright. Let it be known that I despise right-wing extremism, and that the crimes they commit are unacceptable. We good?
Beware those who hate the rich more than they love the poor.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2017, 09:18:16 pm »
We aren't going to cuddle but I commend your statement!