Author Topic: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies  (Read 16561 times)

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Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2019, 10:01:10 pm »
These guys saw the ad as a bad thing.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6VZlAKAfuA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6VZlAKAfuA</a>Clearly the customers Charles Taylor thinks Gillette will "unnecessarily alienate" and where would a razor company be without angry alt right dudes with neckbeards?

You're falling into the "everything I don't like is alt-right" trap. Earlier, I'd talked about how the term "cuck" is being stripped of all its meaning. Well, the same thing is happening to "alt-right". There are perfectly valid reasons to criticize Sargon, but he's not alt-right. The alt-right hates him (they call him "witty" nicknames like "Sargon of Mossad") and the feeling is mutual. It's easy to dismiss people you disagree with by lumping them in with some box of undesirables, but it's also profoundly lazy and dishonest. And more important, it doesn't refute them. I could call you an SJW NPC until the day I died, but what would that accomplish?

I'm not saying these things just because I disagree with you. I disagreed with Rookie, too, but he was able to explain and defend his stance in a reasoned way. So why don't you drop the ad hominem and explain why you think they're wrong?
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2019, 01:36:27 am »
I disagree that Sargon isn't an alt-righter, or at least I disagree that he shouldn't be classified with them.  We draw hard lines between different categories of things for convince sake but when you really examine them where exact lines go is subjective and partly arbitrary.  Sure a dinosaur and a modern bird seem very different, but there is no hard line with a dinosaur on one side and a bird on the other, just gradual changes in degree that add up the farther you go.  The same is true of political ideologies.  There is no hard line between Alt Right and not Alt Right, just shifting along a spectrum. 

The Alt-Right I would say is a movement driven by young white men of the digital generations who are furiously angry that white men are losing power in society and furiously opposes what they see as the sources of their declining power such as feminism, immigration, political correctness and liberalism, while placing less focus or even opposing other aspects of traditional conservatism like religion, small government or hawkish foreign policy.  Not every member of the Alt-Right share all the characteristics or go equally as far, but that is the general nature of the movement.  And yeah Sargon the YouTuber who spends his time whining about feminism ruining video games and whatnot falls under that.  Or at least is to the Alt-Right what Archaeopteryx is to a bird.  Sure you can place the arbitrary dividing line with him outside the alt-right since he still has teeth in his jaws and a boney tail, but that's still the trajectory he's aiming people and he has more in common with them then anyone else.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2019, 04:34:23 am »
You're falling into the "everything I don't like is alt-right" trap. Earlier, I'd talked about how the term "cuck" is being stripped of all its meaning. Well, the same thing is happening to "alt-right". There are perfectly valid reasons to criticize Sargon, but he's not alt-right. The alt-right hates him (they call him "witty" nicknames like "Sargon of Mossad") and the feeling is mutual. It's easy to dismiss people you disagree with by lumping them in with some box of undesirables, but it's also profoundly lazy and dishonest. And more important, it doesn't refute them. I could call you an SJW NPC until the day I died, but what would that accomplish?

No you're conflating the term "alt right" with "Nazi" as opposed to the definition of the term: (in the US) an ideological grouping associated with extreme conservative or reactionary viewpoints, characterized by a rejection of mainstream politics and by the use of online media to disseminate deliberately controversial content. Sargon is all of those to a T. He was part of the original Gamergate metastatic growth that infected the internet in 2014 and, like Phil Mason who can also be heard bellyaching in that video, got his page views largely on the basis of hysterical overreactions to feminist bloggers like Anita Sarkeesian. He doesn't identify as a traditional conservative or tory and he uses online media to disseminate his reactionary pap-that fits Oxford's definition of alt right more definitively than the Tiki Torch brigade!

I'm not saying these things just because I disagree with you. I disagreed with Rookie, too, but he was able to explain and defend his stance in a reasoned way. So why don't you drop the ad hominem and explain why you think they're wrong?

Ooh, "ad hominem" - a gin you wine internet mass debater. One who'd never use dastardly strawman fallacies like "everything I don't like is alt-right" which gives me the distinct impression that your facade of seriousness is just that, buddy we've seen it around here before. You be trollin' and in any case I want to call these hysterical, dolt right, pissbaby, snowflake wankers that and worse. No, I'm gonna ad hominem the shit out of these tools because they deserve it as do assorted faux centrists who'll rush to defend their indefensible bollocks. It's all they rate, goodnight.

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2019, 10:04:29 am »
Trying to stick up for people seriously whinging about an ad trying to sell people small bits of plastic and steel is...actually, that's kinda funny.  Kinda like defending a bunch of wankers bellyachin that a dildo is too large to shove up their ass.  Its fuckin hilarious.
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Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2019, 11:27:46 am »
I disagree that Sargon isn't an alt-righter, or at least I disagree that he shouldn't be classified with them.  We draw hard lines between different categories of things for convince sake but when you really examine them where exact lines go is subjective and partly arbitrary.  Sure a dinosaur and a modern bird seem very different, but there is no hard line with a dinosaur on one side and a bird on the other, just gradual changes in degree that add up the farther you go.  The same is true of political ideologies.  There is no hard line between Alt Right and not Alt Right, just shifting along a spectrum.

Maybe that's true, but that doesn't make it OK to use the term "alt-right" as a cudgel against anybody who disagrees with ideas one considers sacred cows.

The Alt-Right I would say is a movement driven by young white men of the digital generations who are furiously angry that white men are losing power in society and furiously opposes what they see as the sources of their declining power such as feminism, immigration, political correctness and liberalism, while placing less focus or even opposing other aspects of traditional conservatism like religion, small government or hawkish foreign policy.  Not every member of the Alt-Right share all the characteristics or go equally as far, but that is the general nature of the movement.  And yeah Sargon the YouTuber who spends his time whining about feminism ruining video games and whatnot falls under that.  Or at least is to the Alt-Right what Archaeopteryx is to a bird.  Sure you can place the arbitrary dividing line with him outside the alt-right since he still has teeth in his jaws and a boney tail, but that's still the trajectory he's aiming people and he has more in common with them then anyone else.

Aaaand here's the problem. You're defining the alt-right by what they're against, not what they support. This is a very dangerous line of thought, because it leads to people like Ben Shapiro being classified with the alt-right, even though he's a. a practicing Jew and b. in a very antagonistic relationship with the alt-right.

You don't have to be alt-right to disagree with feminism, immigration, political correctness, or other ideas certain people on the left consider to be sacrosanct. Sargon is a self-described classical liberal, not some follower of Richard Spencer. Not liking these things does not make him alt-right, any more than my not liking increasing income inequality makes me a communist. How is this any different from the actual alt-right saying any right-winger who disagrees with their pet causes is a "cuckservative"?

You're falling into the "everything I don't like is alt-right" trap. Earlier, I'd talked about how the term "cuck" is being stripped of all its meaning. Well, the same thing is happening to "alt-right". There are perfectly valid reasons to criticize Sargon, but he's not alt-right. The alt-right hates him (they call him "witty" nicknames like "Sargon of Mossad") and the feeling is mutual. It's easy to dismiss people you disagree with by lumping them in with some box of undesirables, but it's also profoundly lazy and dishonest. And more important, it doesn't refute them. I could call you an SJW NPC until the day I died, but what would that accomplish?

No you're conflating the term "alt right" with "Nazi" as opposed to the definition of the term: (in the US) an ideological grouping associated with extreme conservative or reactionary viewpoints, characterized by a rejection of mainstream politics and by the use of online media to disseminate deliberately controversial content. Sargon is all of those to a T. He was part of the original Gamergate metastatic growth that infected the internet in 2014 and, like Phil Mason who can also be heard bellyaching in that video, got his page views largely on the basis of hysterical overreactions to feminist bloggers like Anita Sarkeesian. He doesn't identify as a traditional conservative or tory and he uses online media to disseminate his reactionary pap-that fits Oxford's definition of alt right more definitively than the Tiki Torch brigade!

So, he's alt-right because... he dislikes feminism, he doesn't identify with mainstream right-wingers, and he distributes his views online? By that "logic", George Carlin was alt-right!

I'm not saying these things just because I disagree with you. I disagreed with Rookie, too, but he was able to explain and defend his stance in a reasoned way. So why don't you drop the ad hominem and explain why you think they're wrong?

Ooh, "ad hominem" - a gin you wine internet mass debater. One who'd never use dastardly strawman fallacies like "everything I don't like is alt-right" which gives me the distinct impression that your facade of seriousness is just that, buddy we've seen it around here before. You be trollin' and in any case I want to call these hysterical, dolt right, pissbaby, snowflake wankers that and worse. No, I'm gonna ad hominem the shit out of these tools because they deserve it as do assorted faux centrists who'll rush to defend their indefensible bollocks. It's all they rate, goodnight.

Defending your use of ad hominem... with more ad hominem.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ru8DMW-grY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ru8DMW-grY</a>
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2019, 03:45:10 pm »
Oh no not Ben Shapiro!  I don't want to hurt the feelings of the transphobic conspiracy theorist who called for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians! 

Yes there are differences between different points on the Alt-Right spectrum, but to deny there is any connection between the likes of Sargon and Spencer is disingenuous.  Straight from the horse's mouth "I’ve said, over and over, that Milo, Sargon, Lauren Souther, and Gavin types people can be great entry points" —Richard Spencer.

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2019, 04:56:15 pm »
Yes there are differences between different points on the Alt-Right spectrum, but to deny there is any connection between the likes of Sargon and Spencer is disingenuous.  Straight from the horse's mouth "I’ve said, over and over, that Milo, Sargon, Lauren Souther, and Gavin types people can be great entry points" —Richard Spencer.

Why should I trust that dipshit's views on politics? Even if he sincerely believes what he said, why should we consider that statement to be accurate?

More pertinent to this discussion, however, is this: what views does Sargon hold that would justify labeling him part of the "alt-right spectrum"?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 04:58:35 pm by Chaos Undivided »
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2019, 05:14:55 pm »
So, he's alt-right because... he dislikes feminism, he doesn't identify with mainstream right-wingers, and he distributes his views online? By that "logic", George Carlin was alt-right!

Sure buddy, this stuff is the same as whiny pissants like Sargon.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJr5iUhORvc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJr5iUhORvc</a> Also note that's arguably a harsher takedown of stupid masculinity than the Gillette ad.

The difference, and I'm not surprised you utterly missed it is that George was that rare breed who could actually pull off being unfair to everyone whereas Sargon and the rest of the dolt right clowns in that video I showed you don't make money off being unfair to everyone, they make money off reacting bitterly to their grievance of feminism being "unfair" to them. They're reactionaries first and foremost.

Sargon the "rationalist" blamed a nonexistent heart attack for Heather Heyer death in Charlottesville and lamented that the alt right were being blamed using that word to describe them before desperately pulling out some both sides whataboutism when called on his bullshit. Sargon sided with the Incels on Elliot Rodger's murder tantrum and said women were partly to blame for not putting out and called the claimants of #MeToo "gold digging whores". Sargon, distinctly different from Carlin won't criticise conservatives yet wants us to believe this little spiv is a "socialist in some ways." Oh yeah, the puke also wanted to censor universities which I couldn't see Carlin calling for if he'd lived to be a million.

That's why he's alt right he's not occasionally reactionary but otherwise ok, his entire shtick is being reactionary and attacking the enemies of the right. His public spats with others in the alt right screechasphere aren't convincing anybody. Christians, atheists and yeah, Nazis also have public spats with members of their in-group. Doesn't change what they are.
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Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2019, 05:59:28 pm »
Criticizing feminism does not a reactionary make. And stop pretending there are no valid reasons to criticize it. Erin Pizzey has received so many death threats from feminists that she needs a fucking bomb squad to process her mail before she can receive it. That's something you'd expect to hear about Salman Rushdie or a mobster who turned state's evidence, not somebody who said that women can be domestic abusers too.

Yes, Sargon has said a number of stupid and/or bad things. But if that makes him alt-right, then the term has zero meaning. Why don't you tell us why you approve of the ad, instead of making ad hominems against its critics?
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Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2019, 05:59:44 pm »
Yes there are differences between different points on the Alt-Right spectrum, but to deny there is any connection between the likes of Sargon and Spencer is disingenuous.  Straight from the horse's mouth "I’ve said, over and over, that Milo, Sargon, Lauren Souther, and Gavin types people can be great entry points" —Richard Spencer.

Why should I trust that dipshit's views on politics? Even if he sincerely believes what he said, why should we consider that statement to be accurate?

More pertinent to this discussion, however, is this: what views does Sargon hold that would justify labeling him part of the "alt-right spectrum"?

I agree Dicky is a dipshit but didn't you just get done being mad that someone ad hominim'd Sargon, who is also quite frankly, a dipshit?

Offline Skybison

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2019, 06:13:36 pm »
Criticizing feminism does not a reactionary make.

Why Not?

Quote
And stop pretending there are no valid reasons to criticize it.

Such as?

Quote
Erin Pizzey has received so many death threats from feminists that she needs a fucking bomb squad to process her mail before she can receive it. That's something you'd expect to hear about Salman Rushdie or a mobster who turned state's evidence, not somebody who said that women can be domestic abusers too.

Okay that is indeed unacceptable.  Although it seems odd to so strongly opposes that here while defending Sargon, a man who was a major leader of a similar campaign of personal threats and harassment against many women.

Why should I trust that dipshit's views on politics? Even if he sincerely believes what he said, why should we consider that statement to be accurate?

Because he's a poor leader if he doesn't understand his audience.  Alt-Righters have personally told Sargon he led them to nazism.

Quote
More pertinent to this discussion, however, is this: what views does Sargon hold that would justify labeling him part of the "alt-right spectrum"?

Too already covered this.

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2019, 06:31:25 pm »
Yes there are differences between different points on the Alt-Right spectrum, but to deny there is any connection between the likes of Sargon and Spencer is disingenuous.  Straight from the horse's mouth "I’ve said, over and over, that Milo, Sargon, Lauren Souther, and Gavin types people can be great entry points" —Richard Spencer.

Why should I trust that dipshit's views on politics? Even if he sincerely believes what he said, why should we consider that statement to be accurate?

More pertinent to this discussion, however, is this: what views does Sargon hold that would justify labeling him part of the "alt-right spectrum"?

I agree Dicky is a dipshit but didn't you just get done being mad that someone ad hominim'd Sargon, who is also quite frankly, a dipshit?

OK, first of all, I was more disappointed than angry. And second, there's a difference between "he's alt-right, therefore he's a dipshit" and "he's a dipshit, therefore he's alt-right". I used the word to emphasize the fact that Spencer's political views are severely warped, and therefore his claims about politics should not be taken at face value. Martyr, on the other hand, accused Sargon of being alt-right as an excuse to completely discard his opinion. One is saying "given your track record, I'm going to need some concrete evidence to believe you", and the other is saying "you're a big meanie and therefore you're wrong."

Okay that is indeed unacceptable.  Although it seems odd to so strongly opposes that here while defending Sargon, a man who was a major leader of a similar campaign of personal threats and harassment against many women.

That's not what the FBI says.

Because he's a poor leader if he doesn't understand his audience.  Alt-Righters have personally told Sargon he led them to nazism.

OK, assuming that's true, did he approve of their turn to Nazism?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 06:33:42 pm by Chaos Undivided »
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2019, 07:00:41 pm »
Criticizing feminism does not a reactionary make. And stop pretending there are no valid reasons to criticize it. Erin Pizzey has received so many death threats from feminists that she needs a fucking bomb squad to process her mail before she can receive it. That's something you'd expect to hear about Salman Rushdie or a mobster who turned state's evidence, not somebody who said that women can be domestic abusers too.


So your critique of "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" is that someone threatened someone else while advocating for women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes? C'mon, a lover of all those easily googled logical fallacies shouldn't stoop to something as simple as Poisoning the Well. You're talking about the actions of an individual not the ideology of feminism per se, learn to difference.

And before you jump in and start saying that's what I say about right wing ideologies, it isn't. My problem with the alt right, Nazis and Fascists is their ideology first and foremost before their actions. These guys are defined by who they don't like and it's this reaction that leads inexorably to violence. Feminists are defined by what they want to improve to make their own lives better so even if an individual feminist acts unacceptably her ideology isn't problematic in the same way the Klan, alt right or Nazis are because it's not defined by who she hates but rather by her aspirations for a better life.

Yes, Sargon has said a number of stupid and/or bad things. But if that makes him alt-right, then the term has zero meaning. Why don't you tell us why you approve of the ad, instead of making ad hominems against its critics?

Sargon has been saying specifically stupid and bad things against specifically left wing and most specifically feminist targets while outright saying he won't critique the right. That makes him alt right, he was alt right first and foremost and remains alt right. His targets are now, and always have been progressives and the left. This isn't George Carlin, it's someone who has historically defined himself by opposition to progressives and continues to do so. That's what the alt right is.

THIS is ad hominem-"Sargon" er, Carl Benjamin (FFS) is a pretentious little toe rag and so are the bitches that whine for him. See? I'll give you a heads up when I ad hominem your whiny little choad.

And I don't "approve" of the ad so much as I think it's inofessively anodyne. "Corporate Responsibility" always is, "we're the good guys, buy our shit" - sure, ok - pay your workers and let them unionize? *frosty silence* I mean the message wasn't bad, it had good stuff. Telling men to not be dicks and stand up and speak out when others are, this isn't radical, or new and it's as basic as telling people to look both ways at a crossing. I just think hysterical, bed wetting, screechy squawky, whiny, entitled, petulant, tantrum throwing meninist drama lamas are funny because they take themselves so very seriously and it's impossible for anyone else to that's not them.

Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2019, 07:12:37 pm »
Yes there are differences between different points on the Alt-Right spectrum, but to deny there is any connection between the likes of Sargon and Spencer is disingenuous.  Straight from the horse's mouth "I’ve said, over and over, that Milo, Sargon, Lauren Souther, and Gavin types people can be great entry points" —Richard Spencer.

Why should I trust that dipshit's views on politics? Even if he sincerely believes what he said, why should we consider that statement to be accurate?

More pertinent to this discussion, however, is this: what views does Sargon hold that would justify labeling him part of the "alt-right spectrum"?

I agree Dicky is a dipshit but didn't you just get done being mad that someone ad hominim'd Sargon, who is also quite frankly, a dipshit?

OK, first of all, I was more disappointed than angry. And second, there's a difference between "he's alt-right, therefore he's a dipshit" and "he's a dipshit, therefore he's alt-right". I used the word to emphasize the fact that Spencer's political views are severely warped, and therefore his claims about politics should not be taken at face value. Martyr, on the other hand, accused Sargon of being alt-right as an excuse to completely discard his opinion. One is saying "given your track record, I'm going to need some concrete evidence to believe you", and the other is saying "you're a big meanie and therefore you're wrong."

Okay that is indeed unacceptable.  Although it seems odd to so strongly opposes that here while defending Sargon, a man who was a major leader of a similar campaign of personal threats and harassment against many women.

That's not what the FBI says.

Because he's a poor leader if he doesn't understand his audience.  Alt-Righters have personally told Sargon he led them to nazism.

OK, assuming that's true, did he approve of their turn to Nazism?

Fair point. I don't trust anything Dick-Spence says. And just calling someone alt right to dismiss them is wrong, but there's plenty of reason to dismiss Sargon. He thinks he's way smarter than he is, he runs everything he touches into the ground, he's a hypocrite, and his opinion on child molestation is literally, to quote his own words: "It depends on the child".

That's not even getting into "fucking feminist system" or any of the other reasons he's a walking vortex of stupid.

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Gillete Ad Upsets Manosphere Crybabies
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2019, 07:25:44 pm »
 You know, Martyr, I think you actually touched upon another reason the ad chafes so much. Gillette's parent company, Procter and Gamble, profits off child labor and conspired with Unilever to fix prices. This makes the ad come off as... well, hypocritical. People generally don't like being lectured by those guilty of far worse than them.
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