Author Topic: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....  (Read 2664 times)

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Offline Barbarella

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A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« on: January 31, 2015, 10:23:08 pm »
This has been puzzling me for years and I never could find an answer.

Today we live in uncertain times, we have all this stuff going on in the world with terrorism, mass shootings, extremism, economic weirdness, etc.

Now, this is bound to make folks bummed.

Now, one would assume that in times as these, people would seek out happy, optimistic, joyful entertainment, stories of good triumphing over evil & good ol' fashioned escapism, right?

No! Instead, shows that are grim are what become big. You have shows that are one big bummer after the other. They may be movies like No Country For Old Men or TV shows like The Walking Dead.

It was the same way in the 70's. When that feeling of bummtitude was big, people didn't suddenly clamor for happy movies, they wanted gritty nihilism, hopelessness & cynicism. I don't doubt that some great movies came out of this era but still.....

The question I'm asking is: When times are good, people watch positive, hopeful movies, ones that say "We can overcome". When times are bad, we like stuff that says "Everything sucks and we are crap".

Wouldn't the opposite make more sense? Does seeing all that celluloid hopelessness actually make real-life people happy & optimistic? Does seeing a movie about a dystopia that just gets worse and end tragically actually cheer people up? Why watch something that only reenforces the feeling of pure "suck" that one's feeling?

When the room is dark and you hate the darkness, you turn on the light switch, you don't close the blinds!

Sure, some may say that the dark nihilistic shows have shades of grey & great story telling but personally, you can still have darkness, grit & antiheroes and still have a tale with some triumph and a fortunate ending or a bit of hope.

I never understood it. I don't get it. It makes no sense to me.

When I'm sad & uncertain, I watch something happy and fun. I listen to fun music that makes my spirit soar.

What's the psychology? Why do people like stories that are super-grim in grim times when more hopeful stories would make better sense as fun, entertainment and escapism?

Is it about resignation? Is it about "facing one's demons"? Preparing for the worst? Seeing characters worse off than you? Misanthropy?

Maybe it's simply the superficial stuff like seeing morbid thrills like zombies & general edginess?

I don't get it.


Can anyone give me some theories.

Now, if you like these grimdark shows, that's fine. Nothing against that. In fact, you might even give me some insight "straight from the horses mouth".

Offline Second Coming of Madman

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2015, 10:56:31 pm »
Huh, I was mulling over this same question of tone myself a while back. From what I master (Which isn't a lot, mind you) of basic psychology, tone in a work of art may be influenced in varying degrees by trauma the creator has suffered.

To use a example which you've mentioned, movies in the 70s were grittier because of loosened standards and a societal trauma from the Vietnam War. Thus, the turmoil of the time translated into a darker subject matter.

I'm most likely wrong here, as I'm just some guy with a keyboard and basic (and sometimes, greater than normal) understanding of a variety of topics. But that's how I'd figure it in regards to that question.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 11:02:52 pm »
Huh, I was mulling over this same question of tone myself a while back. From what I master (Which isn't a lot, mind you) of basic psychology, tone in a work of art may be influenced in varying degrees by trauma the creator has suffered.

To use a example which you've mentioned, movies in the 70s were grittier because of loosened standards and a societal trauma from the Vietnam War. Thus, the turmoil of the time translated into a darker subject matter.

I'm most likely wrong here, as I'm just some guy with a keyboard and basic (and sometimes, greater than normal) understanding of a variety of topics. But that's how I'd figure it in regards to that question.

So basically people are watching what the writers wrote and have no choice in the matter, or perhaps feel the same as the writer, liking the show out of a feeling of "I relate you ya, man. I don't feel alone in this."?

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2015, 12:40:13 am »
I would say times aren't bad at all. Obviously that's debatable, but I think times are pretty damn good by most relevant measures, compared to the past. This is complicated by the fact that perception of how good the world is can be decoupled from the actual state of the world, and really what matters for your theory is not how the world is but how people feel about it.

I don't think we are in a period of people being either unusually happy or unusually upset about the world, but I could be wrong.


But that aside, I also question the idea that people would be against dark, grim stuff when they aren't happy. It varies, of course, but sometimes people want their entertainment to match their mood, not to counter it. If you're feeling cynical, an optimistic movie can feel fake, and you want something that seems like it understands you.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2015, 05:02:09 am »
I would say times aren't bad at all. Obviously that's debatable, but I think times are pretty damn good by most relevant measures, compared to the past. This is complicated by the fact that perception of how good the world is can be decoupled from the actual state of the world, and really what matters for your theory is not how the world is but how people feel about it.

I don't think we are in a period of people being either unusually happy or unusually upset about the world, but I could be wrong.


But that aside, I also question the idea that people would be against dark, grim stuff when they aren't happy. It varies, of course, but sometimes people want their entertainment to match their mood, not to counter it. If you're feeling cynical, an optimistic movie can feel fake, and you want something that seems like it understands you.


I guess that explains it.

Also, like you, I feel that, in the big scheme of things, humanity is doing pretty dang good.

Perhaps I should not be so puzzled by folk's choice in entertainment.

Maybe some folks just like edginess. They don't necessarily agree with the big point of the story, they just enjoy the crazy stuff that transpires in it. Folks watch The Walking Dead for the zombies.....1970's folks liked those depressing flicks because they were new, different & unusual (compared to what Hollywood was showing during the Hay's code).....some have that "catharsis" thing described concerning Classical plays (I guess 'catharsis' in this context means 'simply ranting about how crummy things are', like complaining without doing anything about it, which somehow satisfies).

Maybe some people have a weird mental process where one feels better in a weird ironic way by facing depressing stuff.

I guess much of my bafflement is because I see movies/TV/shows as escapism and am the kind of person to watch happy stuff if I'm depressed. I also have a weird habit of seeing some weird message or worldview promotion in a movie/TV show/book. I'm weird.

I should be detached and just see a movie the same way as a piece of artwork. It's just the expression of a screenwriter/novelist. His/her opinion or worldview.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2015, 01:04:21 pm »
I would say times aren't bad at all. Obviously that's debatable, but I think times are pretty damn good by most relevant measures, compared to the past. This is complicated by the fact that perception of how good the world is can be decoupled from the actual state of the world, and really what matters for your theory is not how the world is but how people feel about it.

I don't think we are in a period of people being either unusually happy or unusually upset about the world, but I could be wrong.


But that aside, I also question the idea that people would be against dark, grim stuff when they aren't happy. It varies, of course, but sometimes people want their entertainment to match their mood, not to counter it. If you're feeling cynical, an optimistic movie can feel fake, and you want something that seems like it understands you.


I guess that explains it.

Also, like you, I feel that, in the big scheme of things, humanity is doing pretty dang good.

Perhaps I should not be so puzzled by folk's choice in entertainment.

Maybe some folks just like edginess. They don't necessarily agree with the big point of the story, they just enjoy the crazy stuff that transpires in it. Folks watch The Walking Dead for the zombies.....1970's folks liked those depressing flicks because they were new, different & unusual (compared to what Hollywood was showing during the Hay's code).....some have that "catharsis" thing described concerning Classical plays (I guess 'catharsis' in this context means 'simply ranting about how crummy things are', like complaining without doing anything about it, which somehow satisfies).

Maybe some people have a weird mental process where one feels better in a weird ironic way by facing depressing stuff.

I guess much of my bafflement is because I see movies/TV/shows as escapism and am the kind of person to watch happy stuff if I'm depressed. I also have a weird habit of seeing some weird message or worldview promotion in a movie/TV show/book. I'm weird.

I should be detached and just see a movie the same way as a piece of artwork. It's just the expression of a screenwriter/novelist. His/her opinion or worldview.

We all have our methods.

Offline Old Viking

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2015, 06:17:34 pm »
It's difficult to generalize about entertainment and contemporary society.  Contradicting your theory, for example, many of the movies in the 1930's were exercises in escapism, pure and simple.  Lavish musicals.  Comedies.  Plots involving the ultra-rich and sophisticated.  And this was a time when the Great Depression was raging and World War II was on the horizon.

Dark, cynical and violent tones prevailed in Film Noir, which was prominent  from the early 40's to the late 50's.  But from the mid-40's on this type of film flourished while we enjoyed a vigorous economy, increasing affluence among the middle class, and the benefits of new technologies.

From the 60's on, movies seem to be a heterogeneous mix of tones, subjects and themes, with gore, horror and overall realism growing in popularity.  I characterize the films of the past half century in this manner because I am far too lazy to do any real research.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2015, 08:46:23 pm »
It's difficult to generalize about entertainment and contemporary society.  Contradicting your theory, for example, many of the movies in the 1930's were exercises in escapism, pure and simple.  Lavish musicals.  Comedies.  Plots involving the ultra-rich and sophisticated.  And this was a time when the Great Depression was raging and World War II was on the horizon.

Dark, cynical and violent tones prevailed in Film Noir, which was prominent  from the early 40's to the late 50's.  But from the mid-40's on this type of film flourished while we enjoyed a vigorous economy, increasing affluence among the middle class, and the benefits of new technologies.

From the 60's on, movies seem to be a heterogeneous mix of tones, subjects and themes, with gore, horror and overall realism growing in popularity.  I characterize the films of the past half century in this manner because I am far too lazy to do any real research.


That's another weird thing. Apart from the Noir stuff, moviegoers in the 30s-early 60s seemed to follow my logic. Maybe it was the Hay's code enforcing "You WILL be HAPPY, GOSHDARNNIT!". I dunno.

I don't quite get the whole "Tragedy Is Cathartic" thing, either. Wouldn't it be more cathartic to engage in wish-fulfillment in your fiction? For example, real life has the rich & powerful steamrolling the "little guy" with impunity....so you write a play where the roles are reversed. That, to me is is "catharsis".....unless I'm showing that I need a dictionary, here. :P

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 05:24:29 am »
I don't quite get the whole "Tragedy Is Cathartic" thing, either. Wouldn't it be more cathartic to engage in wish-fulfillment in your fiction? For example, real life has the rich & powerful steamrolling the "little guy" with impunity....so you write a play where the roles are reversed. That, to me is is "catharsis".....unless I'm showing that I need a dictionary, here. :P

To me, the the catharsis comes from the people who struggle against the grimness and have their personal big or small victories. When you have also people in the story who fail in their struggles in some way it makes these victories even more important. You could say that light that is surrounded by darkness seems brighter.

Even if there story ends really badly, if it's well written and not just grim for the grimness's sake there is a lot to take from. Why did the people fail or triumph? Was it a result of their own actions or the circumstances? If the latter, what caused these circumstances and could they have been changed for better? How should these answers be applied in real life so the bad results can be avoided? This kind of analysis is actually empowering for me and helps keep my thoughts away from my own depression.

Yeah, real life isn't fair. Goodness isn't rewarded automatically and evil of stupidity often triumph. To me, it's important to acknowledge this: that way you see easier how to change things for better even if it's relatively small actions.

Offline Barbarella

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 05:34:29 am »
I don't quite get the whole "Tragedy Is Cathartic" thing, either. Wouldn't it be more cathartic to engage in wish-fulfillment in your fiction? For example, real life has the rich & powerful steamrolling the "little guy" with impunity....so you write a play where the roles are reversed. That, to me is is "catharsis".....unless I'm showing that I need a dictionary, here. :P

To me, the the catharsis comes from the people who struggle against the grimness and have their personal big or small victories. When you have also people in the story who fail in their struggles in some way it makes these victories even more important. You could say that light that is surrounded by darkness seems brighter.

Even if there story ends really badly, if it's well written and not just grim for the grimness's sake there is a lot to take from. Why did the people fail or triumph? Was it a result of their own actions or the circumstances? If the latter, what caused these circumstances and could they have been changed for better? How should these answers be applied in real life so the bad results can be avoided? This kind of analysis is actually empowering for me and helps keep my thoughts away from my own depression.

Yeah, real life isn't fair. Goodness isn't rewarded automatically and evil of stupidity often triumph. To me, it's important to acknowledge this: that way you see easier how to change things for better even if it's relatively small actions.

Ahhh, I see. So these stories can be seen as moral lessons or case studies. In other words, "Don't do what this guy did".

For example, concerning a movie called "The Sidehackers/Five The Hard Way" (which the guys on that comedy, Mystery Science Theater 3000) made fun of......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sidehackers
....The lesson here is, "If a freak beats the snot out of you and rapes & kills your girlfriend, don't seek revenge yourself, just call the cops".

Offline rookie

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 12:22:33 pm »
A couple thoughts on that Barb. First of all, I'm not convinced your OP is true at all. You were harping on the 70s with the rise of anti heros. Ok. But I'd like to point out Lee Marvin was making movies long before that. I'm not convinced there were always the dark movies from the early silent days on. Just what people choose to remember/celebrate. It's comparable to how everyone points to Shakespeare even though I truly believe in my heart of hearts that he wasn't the only one writing plays during his time.

More to the point, yes you had those darker movies. You had the Dennis Hoppers and Clint Eastwoods. They were darker, grittier, grungier. But they were also the good guys. Like, ok, maybe Dirty Harry shouldn't have shot that guy. But that guy was a pimp beating his women. Things like that
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: A Question About Entertainment In Grim Times.....
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 10:30:29 pm »
A couple thoughts on that Barb. First of all, I'm not convinced your OP is true at all. You were harping on the 70s with the rise of anti heros. Ok. But I'd like to point out Lee Marvin was making movies long before that. I'm not convinced there were always the dark movies from the early silent days on. Just what people choose to remember/celebrate. It's comparable to how everyone points to Shakespeare even though I truly believe in my heart of hearts that he wasn't the only one writing plays during his time.

More to the point, yes you had those darker movies. You had the Dennis Hoppers and Clint Eastwoods. They were darker, grittier, grungier. But they were also the good guys. Like, ok, maybe Dirty Harry shouldn't have shot that guy. But that guy was a pimp beating his women. Things like that

First off, I'm not saying there weren't dark movies "way back then" nor am I saying that I'm against darkness or anti-heroes. You obviously haven't gotten the nuance of my point.

But the answer I got is satisfying. The subject is closed.