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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: ironbite on April 27, 2013, 10:08:34 am

Title: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: ironbite on April 27, 2013, 10:08:34 am
According to David Barton, yes it does. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/26/david-barton-bioshock-infinite_n_3164724.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003)

Since its debut in March, Irrational Games' new first-person shooter, "BioShock Infinite," has received rave reviews and is expected to sell more than 4 million copies this year. But some evangelical Christians claim the game may be turning young gamers against Christianity and conservatives.

David Barton, an evangelical radio host and amateur historian, may be the latest pundit to see sinister messages in the dystopian-style game that, according to the Associated Press, "sets a new standard for video-game storytelling, delivering a complex tale in often surprising ways." During Thursday's episode of his "WallBuilders Live" radio show, Barton decried what he apparently feels are the game's subversive principals.

"Christians are starting to be ruled out in many areas in our country," Barton told co-host Rick Green. "I don't know if you're familiar with it, but there's a new video game out now, and in this video game you shoot the bad guys. You go in and kill the bad guys, and the bad guys are Christians and conservatives."

"This is the kind of stuff that the Nazis started early on with young people and getting them to hate Jews, teaching them that Jews were bad and all the bad things that Jews did," Barton went on to say later. "And Jews did not have the political platform to be able to turn that around. Now Christians still do. And if Christians don't get involved, we're going to have trouble."

Now I've played Bioshock Infinite.  I've also played the first Bioshock.  Now that game has such a huge contempt for Ayne Rand's Conservative utopias that you'd be hard pressed not to see that BI does in fact paint Conservatives in a bad light.  Course what this idiot then goes on to do is Godwin himself so he immediately DQs any form of reasonable dialogue from the get go.

Ironbite-I dunno...the game does demonize Conservatives but Christians?
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Barbarella on April 27, 2013, 11:04:53 am
According to David Barton, yes it does. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/26/david-barton-bioshock-infinite_n_3164724.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003)

Since its debut in March, Irrational Games' new first-person shooter, "BioShock Infinite," has received rave reviews and is expected to sell more than 4 million copies this year. But some evangelical Christians claim the game may be turning young gamers against Christianity and conservatives.

David Barton, an evangelical radio host and amateur historian, may be the latest pundit to see sinister messages in the dystopian-style game that, according to the Associated Press, "sets a new standard for video-game storytelling, delivering a complex tale in often surprising ways." During Thursday's episode of his "WallBuilders Live" radio show, Barton decried what he apparently feels are the game's subversive principals.

"Christians are starting to be ruled out in many areas in our country," Barton told co-host Rick Green. "I don't know if you're familiar with it, but there's a new video game out now, and in this video game you shoot the bad guys. You go in and kill the bad guys, and the bad guys are Christians and conservatives."

"This is the kind of stuff that the Nazis started early on with young people and getting them to hate Jews, teaching them that Jews were bad and all the bad things that Jews did," Barton went on to say later. "And Jews did not have the political platform to be able to turn that around. Now Christians still do. And if Christians don't get involved, we're going to have trouble."

Now I've played Bioshock Infinite.  I've also played the first Bioshock.  Now that game has such a huge contempt for Ayne Rand's Conservative utopias that you'd be hard pressed not to see that BI does in fact paint Conservatives in a bad light.  Course what this idiot then goes on to do is Godwin himself so he immediately DQs any form of reasonable dialogue from the get go.

Ironbite-I dunno...the game does demonize Conservatives but Christians?

I can only laugh at the gall of these Bible-Bashers and their "Randroid = Christian" mindset. Sure show who they REALLY worship!

I wrote this on another thread but I think the NeoCons have an alternate perversion of Christianity that goes like this:

Khorne/Saklas/HaSatan The Demiurge = God The Father/HaShem/YHWH/Eheyeh
Jeebus Antichrist/Republican Jesus = Jesus Of Nazareth
Ayn Rand/The Whore of Babylon = Mother Mary
Ann Coulter (and those like her) = Mary Magdalene

If there's any truth to this Book of Revelation stuff, it's an allegory of all this Religious Right B.S. and if that's the case, they will get their "just desserts" in the end!
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Dakota Bob on April 27, 2013, 11:21:04 am
Conservatives and Christians already demonize themselves pretty well, a videogame isn't going to make it any worse.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: nickiknack on April 27, 2013, 12:00:22 pm
Conservatives and Christians already demonize themselves pretty well, a videogame isn't going to make it any worse.

+1 million
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Art Vandelay on April 27, 2013, 01:02:15 pm
Should I even ask if he's actually played Bioshock: Infinite before commenting on it, or would that be a stupid question?
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Yaezakura on April 27, 2013, 01:04:42 pm
I haven't played the game, but from what I've seen of it... In some ways, the guy's point is legitimate. It does paint things like religion, conservatism, and nationalism in a bad light.

But I don't think he realizes exactly how extreme the examples given in the game are. These are people who literally worship the Founding Fathers as holy figures. People who built an artificial heaven because they thought God was taking too long. People who use religion to justify killing over race.

If he realizes how extreme the examples are and still feels the way he does, then I think he ends up being a perfect candidate to explain exactly why the game's message is important: extremes are dangerous.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: chitoryu12 on April 27, 2013, 01:55:30 pm
I've played through all three BioShock games, and all three are rather moderate political commentaries. The first two are about the flaw of making a utopia based on a single strict policy (extreme freedom and laissez-faire in the first and extreme collectivism in the second) without taking into account how human nature doesn't work with it.

BioShock Infinite is a game about the dangers of extremism. You can see aspects of the Founders and Vox Populi in the real world: the Founding Fathers are treated almost as legendary figures of pure good whose wishes should be considered for every decision (regardless of whether they would even have the knowledge and mindset necessary to understand the changes of the modern world), while anti-government sentiment is unusually common and can reach scary levels where people will outright state a desire to engage in violent revolt if a political decision doesn't go as planned. In the Infinite world, the Founding Fathers are literally worshiped as gods, with a religious mythology built around them that all citizens are expected to follow. Meanwhile, the downtrodden minorities forget the cause that they fight for and instead begin to irrationally hate the Founders, slaughtering children and civilians and essentially causing random chaos until Columbia burns. They're both too far deep into extremism to even consider the other side more than the most horrifying monsters on the face of the planet. Mix that with a lot of authentic turn-of-the-century prejudice, and you've got a melting pot of human terror.

The whole point of the game is that both sides have gone to the extremes of the right and left sides of the political spectrum. Elizabeth even romanticizes the Vox Populi as noble freedom fighters, only to realize that they've become just as monstrous as the Founders. They even repeatedly stated this during previews of the game, that both sides were extremists and you'd be forced to fight both.

Ironically, the outcry over everything kinda proves Ken Levine's point: everyone is so busy getting angry over the game "supporting the other side" that they forgot to look at how bad they're acting themselves.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on April 27, 2013, 01:57:07 pm
He's just mad that Bible Adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Adventures) was terrible.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: mellenORL on April 27, 2013, 03:00:23 pm
With that in mind, I wish Bethesda would do an RTS/RPG accurately depicting the Old Testament. Wut a bloodfest, man! Would the xtians love it or hate it?
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Sleepy on April 27, 2013, 03:09:04 pm
With that in mind, I wish Bethesda would do an RTS/RPG accurately depicting the Old Testament. Wut a bloodfest, man! Would the xtians love it or hate it?

That actually sounds fun to play, if you're looking for some gore. You could either be god and destroy things as you please, or be a poor mortal and try to survive his bitchiness.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Shane for Wax on April 27, 2013, 03:16:50 pm
The people in Columbia worship false idols. I don't see why Christian conservatives are getting into a tiff when it's only pointing out extremes and is even showing one of the things the Bible says not to do (though a good portion of the ten commandments are broken, the main theme is false idols). But then again... what doesn't get them in a tiff?

But meh.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Sigmaleph on April 27, 2013, 04:21:43 pm
There's a shitload of media that paints a corresponding shitload of ideologies in a negative light. If this happens to be an ideology you like, you are faced with the stark choice of a) Ignore it and enjoy your game/book/song/movie/etc. on its other aspects or b) Stop playing/reading/listening/watching/etc.
Crying Hitler about it is idiotic and won't accomplish anything, except possibly annoying people.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Sour Grapes on April 27, 2013, 04:26:03 pm
Well, they may hate that the game shows what they do in such a stark light.  Their extremism is shown in stark detail.  Think about it, how many of the extremists would love to have the propaganda of Columbia made into Law?

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100916203446/bioshock/images/b/b6/WASHINGTON_FINAL.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Bf-Tya3TXvk/UWgP6vcIFpI/AAAAAAAAcHU/gnG7nft32QA/s1600/Burden+Not+Columbia+With+Your+Chaff.png)

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_meepfs5kKS1rb7rafo2_1280.jpg)

The extremists, too, worship their false versions of the Founding Fathers, after all.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: TheUnknown on April 27, 2013, 05:23:07 pm
It's funny how one of the "Foreign Hordes" is Native American, as in, the people who are native to this land because they were here first.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: ironbite on April 27, 2013, 05:33:32 pm
There still the horde though.

Ironbite-cause....propaganda.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 27, 2013, 07:27:38 pm
He's just mad that Bible Adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Adventures) was terrible.

Didn't the Angry Video Game Nerd review that one?
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: niam2023 on April 27, 2013, 07:37:46 pm
If the game teaches people disgust of right wing degenerates who want to drag us into the past, kicking and screaming, I am all for it.

If a game features Extremist Christians and Conservatives as villains, these little whiners will need to deal with it, and see how easy it is to view their platform as a villainous creed.

"We want the 1950's back". That is not a heroic thing to want. That is villainous.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: KZN02 on April 27, 2013, 07:42:54 pm
I forget, I remember reading on TV Tropes that one of the developers for the first Bioshock was a Libertarian or something, but what people got out of the game was anti-Libertarian stuff. Only in the sequel was this corrected.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: FirsthandTuna on April 27, 2013, 07:50:54 pm
I forget, I remember reading on TV Tropes that one of the developers for the first Bioshock was a Libertarian or something, but what people got out of the game was anti-Libertarian stuff. Only in the sequel was this corrected.

That doesn't make sense. The second game wasn't made by the same team.

Also, it's probably not smart to look at the villains in Infinite and say "oh yeah, these guys are totally meant to represent my political and religious views."
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Shane for Wax on April 27, 2013, 08:35:17 pm
I forget, I remember reading on TV Tropes that one of the developers for the first Bioshock was a Libertarian or something, but what people got out of the game was anti-Libertarian stuff. Only in the sequel was this corrected.

I'd be interested to know where they found that out. Ken Levine was a part of both Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite and Bioshock 2 was done by Jordan Thomas who worked with Ken for Bioshock 1. And I'm really not sure Ken has a definite political lean nor Jordan.

Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 27, 2013, 09:14:27 pm
I remember when we were reading The Jungle in class, and the teacher offered extra credit if we read some Ayn Rand book (I forget which one). I asked if we would get extra extra credit for playing Bioshock after reading said Rand book and he said no.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Cerim Treascair on April 27, 2013, 09:43:27 pm
This is only making me want Bioshock Infinite more.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on April 27, 2013, 10:50:56 pm
With that in mind, I wish Bethesda would do an RTS/RPG accurately depicting the Old Testament. Wut a bloodfest, man! Would the xtians love it or hate it?
I'd be decapitating men and taking concubines all up in this mofo. Sign me up.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on April 27, 2013, 10:51:33 pm
He's just mad that Bible Adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Adventures) was terrible.

Didn't the Angry Video Game Nerd review that one?
Yes, yes he did. Actually he did ALL the knock-off Bible games.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: cheese007 on April 27, 2013, 11:27:27 pm
You can actually play said bible games here: http://www.wisdomtreegames.com/arcade.html
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on April 28, 2013, 12:06:14 am
You can actually play said bible games here: http://www.wisdomtreegames.com/arcade.html
(http://sfcitizen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/how-about-no-bear.jpg)
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: ThunderWulf on April 28, 2013, 12:07:32 am
I don't think he played to the point that you meet the Vox Populi..

Yeah, if this guy had beaten it I think he would of seen it in a whole different light.  Or maybe not considering it's probably a fundie.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: kefkaownsall on April 28, 2013, 12:16:58 am
Why do I get the feeling he didn't play it.  Also they use the term
Quote
amateur historian
.  Please emphasize amateur.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on April 28, 2013, 12:32:39 am
Why do I get the feeling he didn't play it.  Also they use the term
Quote
amateur historian
.  Please emphasize amateur.
That's an insult to actual amateur historians--people who are new at what they are doing but are still acting in an ethical manner. Barton is a conscious charlatan who blatantly lies about history and forges his own quotes in an effort to convince people that the founders were all fundamentalist Christians who wanted a Christian nation. Never trust anyone who claims the Constitution is a "verbatim" copy of Scripture and does so with a straight face.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: KZN02 on April 28, 2013, 12:44:19 am
This is only making me want Bioshock Infinite more.
Conspiracy Mode: this is an advertising attempt for Bioshock Infinite.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: chitoryu12 on April 28, 2013, 01:19:56 am
The people in Columbia worship false idols. I don't see why Christian conservatives are getting into a tiff when it's only pointing out extremes and is even showing one of the things the Bible says not to do (though a good portion of the ten commandments are broken, the main theme is false idols). But then again... what doesn't get them in a tiff?

But meh.

If anything, THEY should be viewing the Founders as villains for denying Christianity in Columbia and replacing all religions with worship of historical figures and a self-proclaimed prophet as gods.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Jack Mann on April 28, 2013, 02:17:40 pm
Ken Levine has mentioned in interviews that he has libertarian leanings, though he's not an objectivist. 
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: chitoryu12 on April 28, 2013, 03:05:09 pm
Ken Levine has mentioned in interviews that he has libertarian leanings, though he's not an objectivist.

And even then, the original BioShock shows one of the big points of sane politicking: you can't build a utopia by ignoring human nature. Andrew Ryan wanted to make a utopia of laissez-faire economics and true freedom, which resulted in people paying out the nose for simple food and services and a highly dangerous and addictive gene-modifying substance that effectively grants superpowers while driving the user to insanity becoming freely available with no restrictions; he also couldn't resist his own desires for power and control and became a tyrant. In BioShock 2, Sophia Lamb tried to create a collectivist utopia where everyone works for the good of the group at the expense of their own benefit. A major part of the plot is her attempt to outright change human nature, as she acknowledges that it's effectively impossible to create her utopia without severe brainwashing or creating a hive mind.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Cataclysm on April 28, 2013, 04:50:38 pm
Quote
Conservative blogging site Breitbart was more emphatic. While praising the game's visuals, Breitbart's Noah Dulis wrote that the fictional civilization's bureaucrats are "xenophobic, religious fanatics, they are progressive caricatures of conservatives writ large, stripped of any subtlety; nothing but ugly monsters full of naked aggression and violent bigotry."

Wait, so you're saying that modern conservatives would make better villains? Not saying I disagree, but it doesn't seem like something you'd think.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Barbarella on April 28, 2013, 05:31:59 pm
Quote
Conservative blogging site Breitbart was more emphatic. While praising the game's visuals, Breitbart's Noah Dulis wrote that the fictional civilization's bureaucrats are "xenophobic, religious fanatics, they are progressive caricatures of conservatives writ large, stripped of any subtlety; nothing but ugly monsters full of naked aggression and violent bigotry."

Wait, so you're saying that modern conservatives would make better villains? Not saying I disagree, but it doesn't seem like something you'd think.

Not very self-aware, these fundies.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: niam2023 on April 28, 2013, 05:50:35 pm
Well, if it meant being allowed to kill a Vigor'd up Breitbart, Hannity, and Coulter, that would be so much FUN!
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Shane for Wax on April 28, 2013, 07:00:43 pm
The people in Columbia worship false idols. I don't see why Christian conservatives are getting into a tiff when it's only pointing out extremes and is even showing one of the things the Bible says not to do (though a good portion of the ten commandments are broken, the main theme is false idols). But then again... what doesn't get them in a tiff?

But meh.

If anything, THEY should be viewing the Founders as villains for denying Christianity in Columbia and replacing all religions with worship of historical figures and a self-proclaimed prophet as gods.

That would require fundies to think for a second.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: chitoryu12 on April 28, 2013, 11:58:20 pm
Quote
Conservative blogging site Breitbart was more emphatic. While praising the game's visuals, Breitbart's Noah Dulis wrote that the fictional civilization's bureaucrats are "xenophobic, religious fanatics, they are progressive caricatures of conservatives writ large, stripped of any subtlety; nothing but ugly monsters full of naked aggression and violent bigotry."

Wait, so you're saying that modern conservatives would make better villains? Not saying I disagree, but it doesn't seem like something you'd think.

They're not realizing the historical precedent of the Founders and Vox. Finding real life figures and movements of similar aggression and xenophobia isn't hard, especially in 1912.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: ironbite on April 29, 2013, 01:35:50 am
Hell, 1912 was right there in the midst of all those things.  It's a perfect time period.  Not quite yet WWI and the modern world in it's infancy.  It was one of those times that this game perfectly shows how rotten it really was.

Ironbite-in a floating city that doubles as a warship.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: Katsuro on April 30, 2013, 11:18:55 am
Conservatives and Christians already demonize themselves pretty well, a videogame isn't going to make it any worse.

Hey, why did we get rid of the ability to give people a "Fuck Yeah" again?  I've got like 10 sitting here for this post.
Title: Re: Bioshock Infinite teaches gamers to hate conservitives?
Post by: chitoryu12 on April 30, 2013, 11:35:58 am
Conservatives and Christians already demonize themselves pretty well, a videogame isn't going to make it any worse.

Hey, why did we get rid of the ability to give people a "Fuck Yeah" again?  I've got like 10 sitting here for this post.

Because people also had about 10 "Fuck Nos" sitting there for anyone who they didn't like.