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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: dpareja on July 14, 2016, 07:48:59 pm

Title: Attack in Nice
Post by: dpareja on July 14, 2016, 07:48:59 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nice-truck-bastille-day-1.3679807

Quote
Dozens of people were killed in the French Riviera city of Nice late on Thursday when a truck plowed into crowds watching a fireworks display on France's Bastille Day national holiday, the mayor said on Twitter.​

French TV channel BFM TV initially reported at least 30 people were killed as a crowd was celebrating.

The president of the Nice region says at least 60 are dead. Christian Estrosi also said the truck was loaded with arms and grenades.

A spokesman for France's Interior Ministry said the death toll is likely to rise.

"It's going to be a very high toll," Pierre-Henry Brandet told BFM TV.

The driver is apparently dead in a shootout with police, but... holy shit.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: dpareja on July 14, 2016, 08:10:18 pm
Christ, these attacks are happening every month now. Its surreal.


Ok, now Cont says something like "well if it isn't the religion of peace at it again."

Not to mention what Hof would say.

At which point (unless there are further developments) I would point out that basically nothing is known about the killer except that he's apparently a homicidal maniac who just killed at least seventy people.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Søren on July 14, 2016, 09:49:57 pm
Seeing stuff saying that the attacker was a 31 year old male with french tunisian ties.

Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: fancy_kitten on July 14, 2016, 10:06:11 pm
When will it stop?!
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Søren on July 14, 2016, 10:08:04 pm
When we run out of face book filters and hastags
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: SCarpelan on July 14, 2016, 10:29:47 pm
Seeing stuff saying that the attacker was a 31 year old male with french tunisian ties.
Based on what I've read about the Muslim extremist recruiting in France I would be prepared to bet that he has a criminal record. That's the typical profile: someone whose life is fucked up and does not feel like he belongs to the society. The French citizens with Northern African heritage have similar issues with the justice system in France as African Americans have in the States which helps to create this kind of cases. Prisons are also a useful recruiting environment for the extremists specially since the gangs in the slums where the poor Northern Africans typically live don't like the recruiters. They want people to escape their misery to drugs instead of religion.

Of course he might have a different background but I'm just playing the odds here...

Edit: I just realized I'm basing my guess on information collected before ISIS and their social media recruiting campaigns. I don't know how it has influenced the situation I described and I might be playing against worse odds than I thought.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 14, 2016, 10:59:47 pm
Seeing stuff saying that the attacker was a 31 year old male with french tunisian ties.
Based on what I've read about the Muslim extremist recruiting in France I would be prepared to bet that he has a criminal record. That's the typical profile: someone whose life is fucked up and does not feel like he belongs to the society. The French citizens with Northern African heritage have similar issues with the justice system in France as African Americans have in the States which helps to create this kind of cases. Prisons are also a useful recruiting environment for the extremists specially since the gangs in the slums where the poor Northern Africans typically live don't like the recruiters. They want people to escape their misery to drugs instead of religion.
Reactionary movements, including religious terror movements are just that, a reaction to feelings of disempowerment and humiliation. They don't offer concrete solutions, they just keep feeding the rage.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: dpareja on July 14, 2016, 11:10:44 pm
Seen on another forum:

Quote
80 dead 50 injured by a guy driving a truck full of weapons who is either batshit crazy or had direct specific intent.

Clearly France has an issue with too many trucks in the hands of bad guys. They should ban all of their citizens from having trucks, keeping them reserved only to police and military. That will definitely solve the problem.

Isn't that the popular argument when stuff like this happens?
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 15, 2016, 12:18:00 am
Being totally honest, I think Orwell ignored a lot of context, there.  People in post-WWI Germany were already struggling, endangered, and dying; Hitler just gave them a way to feel as if those things could actually mean something, when all's said and done.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: fancy_kitten on July 15, 2016, 12:42:14 am
We should all learn how to deal with these extremists and form a worldwide enlightenment of worlds.  I believe I good way to start this is too make a rap video about how not to be an evil person.

Treat all people with respect,

what you give is what you get

treat all people with respect I say.

Never hit a woman or abuse a child, it is wrong and illegal too, and your religion doesn't make it okay to do
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 15, 2016, 01:22:25 am
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 15, 2016, 03:59:49 am
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Something something sub par trolling. Something something someone admonish me because even negative attention trumps loneliness.

Something.

That what you meant Conty?
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 15, 2016, 07:09:40 am
(http://i.imgur.com/pNq33lg.png)
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 15, 2016, 07:59:10 am
(http://i.imgur.com/pNq33lg.png)
A fucken men!
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 15, 2016, 12:45:45 pm
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Something something sub par trolling. Something something someone admonish me because even negative attention trumps loneliness.

Something.

That what you meant Conty?

Just pre-empting the usual lines you guys have queued up to deflect the blame from the monthly Islamic massacre.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: fancy_kitten on July 15, 2016, 12:57:38 pm
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Something something sub par trolling. Something something someone admonish me because even negative attention trumps loneliness.

Something.

That what you meant Conty?

Just pre-empting the usual lines you guys have queued up to deflect the blame from the monthly Islamic massacre.

Hey guys, don't be mean to The Contrarian here, his brain's groin still hurts when he pulled it figuring out how you can believe this, but when your white supremacist American buddies shoot up a church or Anders Brevik does his thing they were just lone actors.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 15, 2016, 01:20:26 pm
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Something something sub par trolling. Something something someone admonish me because even negative attention trumps loneliness.

Something.

That what you meant Conty?

Just pre-empting the usual lines you guys have queued up to deflect the blame from the monthly Islamic massacre.

Hey guys, don't be mean to The Contrarian here, his brain's groin still hurts when he pulled it figuring out how you can believe this, but when your white supremacist American buddies shoot up a church or Anders Brevik does his thing they were just lone actors.

Brilliant! Now I just need you to bring up the Iraq war and give me a "Not all..." and my little game of "Progressive Terrorism Apologist Bingo" is won until the next time a poor innocent muslim goes out and massacres a bunch of innocent people.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: fancy_kitten on July 15, 2016, 02:14:35 pm
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Something something sub par trolling. Something something someone admonish me because even negative attention trumps loneliness.

Something.

That what you meant Conty?

Just pre-empting the usual lines you guys have queued up to deflect the blame from the monthly Islamic massacre.

Hey guys, don't be mean to The Contrarian here, his brain's groin still hurts when he pulled it figuring out how you can believe this, but when your white supremacist American buddies shoot up a church or Anders Brevik does his thing they were just lone actors.

Brilliant! Now I just need you to bring up the Iraq war and give me a "Not all..." and my little game of "Progressive Terrorism Apologist Bingo" is won until the next time a poor innocent muslim goes out and massacres a bunch of innocent people.

You seem to have me pegged as some kind of hardcore Muslim apologist, when in reality I'm just pointing out hypocrisy.  What's your excuse?
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 15, 2016, 02:27:41 pm
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Something something sub par trolling. Something something someone admonish me because even negative attention trumps loneliness.

Something.

That what you meant Conty?

Just pre-empting the usual lines you guys have queued up to deflect the blame from the monthly Islamic massacre.

Hey guys, don't be mean to The Contrarian here, his brain's groin still hurts when he pulled it figuring out how you can believe this, but when your white supremacist American buddies shoot up a church or Anders Brevik does his thing they were just lone actors.

Brilliant! Now I just need you to bring up the Iraq war and give me a "Not all..." and my little game of "Progressive Terrorism Apologist Bingo" is won until the next time a poor innocent muslim goes out and massacres a bunch of innocent people.

You seem to have me pegged as some kind of hardcore Muslim apologist, when in reality I'm just pointing out hypocrisy.  What's your excuse?

Then why don't you look into a mirror.

You mention two incidents separated by an ocean and several years but both committed by demonstrably unhinged white people; point at them and say "DURR HURR DURR I SUPPOSE YOU THINK THOSE ARE ISOLATED INCIDENTS".

While completely ignoring that islamic terrorists are doing shit like this practically EVERY DAY all over the world.  So you try and deflect the subject matter onto something else entirely because the idea that the muslim population of any given country contains a higher than average quotient of the sort of fuckwit who would gun down a nightclub full of homosexuals or mow down a street full of innocent people with a truck makes you uncomfortable for some reason.

Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: fancy_kitten on July 15, 2016, 04:41:09 pm
Something something something white supremacy, something something something just a coincidentally muslim lone wolf like the last dozen, something something nothing to do with religion something something

I really hope this doesn't affect the flow of so-called brown people into Europe in any way. Because that's the main thing, apparently.
Something something sub par trolling. Something something someone admonish me because even negative attention trumps loneliness.

Something.

That what you meant Conty?

Just pre-empting the usual lines you guys have queued up to deflect the blame from the monthly Islamic massacre.

Hey guys, don't be mean to The Contrarian here, his brain's groin still hurts when he pulled it figuring out how you can believe this, but when your white supremacist American buddies shoot up a church or Anders Brevik does his thing they were just lone actors.

Brilliant! Now I just need you to bring up the Iraq war and give me a "Not all..." and my little game of "Progressive Terrorism Apologist Bingo" is won until the next time a poor innocent muslim goes out and massacres a bunch of innocent people.

You seem to have me pegged as some kind of hardcore Muslim apologist, when in reality I'm just pointing out hypocrisy.  What's your excuse?

Then why don't you look into a mirror.

You mention two incidents separated by an ocean and several years but both committed by demonstrably unhinged white people; point at them and say "DURR HURR DURR I SUPPOSE YOU THINK THOSE ARE ISOLATED INCIDENTS".

While completely ignoring that islamic terrorists are doing shit like this practically EVERY DAY all over the world.  So you try and deflect the subject matter onto something else entirely because the idea that the muslim population of any given country contains a higher than average quotient of the sort of fuckwit who would gun down a nightclub full of homosexuals or mow down a street full of innocent people with a truck makes you uncomfortable for some reason.

Ah, that familiar smell of partially digested food from a bad chippy.  I suppose I do feel just about masochistic enough to dissect this white supremacist diarrhea. 

>You mention two incidents separated by an ocean and several years but both committed by demonstrably unhinged white people; point at them and say "DURR HURR DURR I SUPPOSE YOU THINK THOSE ARE ISOLATED INCIDENTS".

Just past the puddle of malt vinegar, you'll see some of the exact same logic an SJW would use, but applied to rad-righters.  "Oh, they were two isolated incidents!  It was a long time ago!  Just ignore the fact that they both had the exact same ideology!"  This is reasonable because, as we all know, the white supremacist will at least apply the same logic to both sides and clam that you must arbitrarily choose between 9/11 and Orlando, or between San Bernandino and Charlie Hebdo if you want to cite a reason fro your distrust of Islam, as well as helpfully point out that you can't mention ISIS and Boko Haram or some similar group in the same sentence, because they aren't technically the same political group.  Oh wait, no they fucking don't. 

>While completely ignoring that islamic terrorists are doing shit like this practically EVERY DAY all over the world.  So you try and deflect the subject matter onto something else entirely because the idea that the muslim population of any given country contains a higher than average quotient of the sort of fuckwit who would gun down a nightclub full of homosexuals or mow down a street full of innocent people with a truck makes you uncomfortable for some reason.

No, I don't.  Clearly, Islamic fundamentalism is a plague.  There is no disagreement here.  My problem is that you and yours refuse to accept that the same truth applies to your radright buddies, who are also a plague.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 15, 2016, 05:12:01 pm
No, I don't.  Clearly, Islamic fundamentalism is a plague.  There is no disagreement here.  My problem is that you and yours refuse to accept that the same truth applies to your radright buddies, who are also a plague.

The fact that you feel the need to try and deflect attention towards far-right crazies is pretty telling, but hey.

Nice that you used disease as an analogy.

Far right mentalists would be more like a mutant strain of the flu than yersinia pestis.  It's always there in the background and just once every few years it hits the headlines, kills a few people and the media blows it up out of all proportion before it fades away again.

Islam is like your normal strains of seasonal flu.  It's fucking everywhere, it kills regularly and racks up tens of thousands of victims every year but you hardly ever hear about it in the media apart from when you get sporadic outbreaks in western countries.

Oh and progressives are massively and creepily in favour of importing as many carriers as they can into europe for some unknown reason.

Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 15, 2016, 06:51:01 pm
You could say the same thing about Christianity that inspires terrorists and serial killers alike.

But lets not get in between an English Tory and his Sectarianism lest he remember that the last centuries bomb-happy crowd were Catholics! We don't want to confuse the poor chap now do we?
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: fancy_kitten on July 15, 2016, 09:03:45 pm
No, I don't.  Clearly, Islamic fundamentalism is a plague.  There is no disagreement here.  My problem is that you and yours refuse to accept that the same truth applies to your radright buddies, who are also a plague.

The fact that you feel the need to try and deflect attention towards far-right crazies is pretty telling, but hey.

Nice that you used disease as an analogy.

Far right mentalists would be more like a mutant strain of the flu than yersinia pestis.  It's always there in the background and just once every few years it hits the headlines, kills a few people and the media blows it up out of all proportion before it fades away again.

Islam is like your normal strains of seasonal flu.  It's fucking everywhere, it kills regularly and racks up tens of thousands of victims every year but you hardly ever hear about it in the media apart from when you get sporadic outbreaks in western countries.

Oh and progressives are massively and creepily in favour of importing as many carriers as they can into europe for some unknown reason.

Sorry, I had you pegged as an Akkadian who would break out the apologetics as soon as someone pointed out that right-wingers the world over do the same shit. 

As for your analogy, I'd say it's more like one is smallpox and the other is ebola.  Two deadly diseases, but one should have completely been wiped out from the civilized world ages ago, it only persists because some ignorant cultists want an excuse for their paranoia and hate, and the people feeding them the latter want fame and money. 

The other still exists and is a problem, but Westerners only give half a rat's ass when it kills some of our own.  If you point out that it kills exponentially more people in the third world and propose that we find a way to help them, possibly by getting them out of an ebola-infected aprt of the world, you're labeled as an ebola lover.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 16, 2016, 06:39:09 pm
Direct question Contrarian, given that the mass murderer in Nice drank beer and never went to mosque (https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/32069788/nice-attacker-a-violent-man-who-drank-beer-and-never-went-to-mosque/#page1) are you basing your assumption on his violent religious beliefs on his name alone?

Yes the Islamic State has claimed responsibility (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/islamic-state-claims-responsibility-for-nice-truck-attack), they also claimed responsibility for the Orlando Nightclub Shooting  (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/isis-claims-responsibility-orlando-gay-nightclub-shooting-florida-attack-omar-mateen-gunman-a7079721.html) which was orchestrated by an idiot who couldn't tell one Middle East faction from another and pledged allegiance to several who were fighting ISIS (http://www.salon.com/2016/06/13/orlando_shooter_supported_conflicting_islamist_groups_that_are_fighting_each_other/). Distinct possibility ISIS is opportunistic yet also full of shit and this is just another angry fuckwit who happens to have a middle eastern name.

Also both of these losers were residents of the countries in which the attacks happened and decidedly not refugees themselves, ruling out the refugee angle. Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: SCarpelan on July 16, 2016, 09:13:38 pm
Warning: typed while utterly wasted after a friend's birthday party. Even worse danger of typos and grammar mistakes than usual.

Gee. It seems someone made a prediction about the perpetrator:

That's the typical profile: someone whose life is fucked up and does not feel like he belongs to the society.

People like this are ticking time bombs. They will most probably do something violent at some point. Religious extremism gives them the excuse to relieve all the pressure they have accumulated in the most destructive way possible. Daesh/ISIS explicitly calls for lone wolf attacks to take advantage of people like this. The most effective way to prevent these incidents is to minimize the societal pressure these people feel. If you single mindedly attack only the religion ignoring the other influences you only make them push back even harder while alienating possible allies of the less extreme religious persuasion.

Fuck it. I'm going to hide behind my drunken state which makes it difficult to even type and hope my point comes through. Peace you fuckers.

Edited just because:

Concentrating on the other factors has also other beneficial effects. When you decrease the amount of people marginalized from the society you also decrease things like poverty, unemployment and criminality. It's a win-win scenario.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 22, 2016, 12:46:07 pm
Direct question Contrarian, given that the mass murderer in Nice drank beer and never went to mosque (https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/32069788/nice-attacker-a-violent-man-who-drank-beer-and-never-went-to-mosque/#page1) are you basing your assumption on his violent religious beliefs on his name alone?

I know plenty of scotsmen who can't stand bagpipe music and even one or two who aren't ginger.

Sorry what were you saying again?

Quote
In the days before the attack, Lahouaiej-Bouhlel let his beard grow[11] and told people "the meaning of this beard is religious." French authorities stated that Lahouaiej-Bouhlel showed a passion for religion only recently;[12][13] "Mohamed only started visiting a mosque in April," a witness stated.[14] French investigator François Mulins stated "Bouhlel had expressed support for the Islamic State."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Lahouaiej-Bouhlel

#notallscotsmen

PS - you can whinge about using wikipedia, but it's sourced, it's quick and it's all that's needed to shove your badly disguised little fallacy back where it came from.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 22, 2016, 04:27:40 pm
Satisfied with his post-facto justification of his early prejudice Contrarian moves on to bigger and more contrary things.

Like the amusing notion that their are Scotsman out there who'd give him the time of day, or not want to vote out of the UK on the sole basis that he's in it.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 22, 2016, 04:44:09 pm
Satisfied with his post-facto justification of his early prejudice Contrarian moves on to bigger and more contrary things.

Like the amusing notion that their are Scotsman out there who'd give him the time of day, or not want to vote out of the UK on the sole basis that he's in it.

Or trying to swiftly backpedal from the fact you tried to use the most infantile logical fallacy of the lot and got called on it.

Or are you now claiming that scotsmen who consort with me are literally not true scotsmen.  You're getting into fucking fallacyception here...

Btw, "their" is a possessive.  The word you're looking for is "there".

Proofread, it's not difficult.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Canadian Mojo on July 22, 2016, 06:11:00 pm
Proofread, it's not difficult.

Your, not worth the effort, troll.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 22, 2016, 07:49:22 pm
Yes, yes Conty. The timing of your response was telling. Go and sing about the glories of old England and Bitter Celts with your Really Absolutely  True Scotchman pals now.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: SCarpelan on July 23, 2016, 12:41:36 am
I actually don't see a problem with blaming Islam the ideology for the attacks. However I don't blame every Muslim or most Muslims for the attack just as I don't blame followers of the Russian Orthodox Church for war crimes in Checnya.

Blaming ideology of Islam would be the same as blaming the ideology of Christianity for the athrocities in Chechnya or the Westborough Baptist Church. Both Islam and Christianity hold so many conflicting ideologies within them which are constantly adapting to the political and social landscapes that generalizing is misleading. What people mean when they talk about "ideology of Islam" is their superficial interpretation of the multitude of cultures lumped together within the term of "Islam".

As I have said many times, religion is a significant part of the whole equation but still only a part. Simplifying Islam into a heterogenic ideology plays into the harmful and misleading narrative that is constantly built both consciously and unintentionally by different sides in the cultural conflict. I hold no fondness towards any religion myself but I dislike and find it harmful when people simplify multifaceted issues because they come from "the other" outside their everyday experience without listening to people who actually devote their lives to studying these issues. Just to make it clear I'm not talking about religious authorities but academic scholars working for universities and military and intelligence institutions.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 23, 2016, 12:17:25 pm
Yes, yes Conty. The timing of your response was telling. Go and sing about the glories of old England and Bitter Celts with your Really Absolutely  True Scotchman pals now.

Is that really the best you can do?

A stupid logical fallacy and some really inept playground insults?

Are you 8 years old?
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 23, 2016, 12:19:15 pm
I actually don't see a problem with blaming Islam the ideology for the attacks. However I don't blame every Muslim or most Muslims for the attack just as I don't blame followers of the Russian Orthodox Church for war crimes in Checnya.

Blaming ideology of Islam would be the same as blaming the ideology of Christianity for the athrocities in Chechnya or the Westborough Baptist Church. Both Islam and Christianity hold so many conflicting ideologies within them which are constantly adapting to the political and social landscapes that generalizing is misleading. What people mean when they talk about "ideology of Islam" is their superficial interpretation of the multitude of cultures lumped together within the term of "Islam".

As I have said many times, religion is a significant part of the whole equation but still only a part. Simplifying Islam into a heterogenic ideology plays into the harmful and misleading narrative that is constantly built both consciously and unintentionally by different sides in the cultural conflict. I hold no fondness towards any religion myself but I dislike and find it harmful when people simplify multifaceted issues because they come from "the other" outside their everyday experience without listening to people who actually devote their lives to studying these issues. Just to make it clear I'm not talking about religious authorities but academic scholars working for universities and military and intelligence institutions.

Well you can subdivide Islam into its' different sects and regional ideologies if you like, but when 99% of all the terrorist attacks not just in the middle-east and Europe but WORLDWIDE are committed by one or other of those subgroups, it's a pretty irrelevant thing to do.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: dpareja on July 23, 2016, 04:18:35 pm
Charleston.

Shooting up abortion clinics.

Tim McVeigh.

Anders Breivik.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 23, 2016, 05:43:22 pm
Charleston.

Shooting up abortion clinics.

Tim McVeigh.

Anders Breivik.

(2) is non-specific, (3) was TWENTY-ONE years ago.

Do you really want me to post a list of every islamic terror attack since 1995?  Even if I just restricted it to 2016 you'd probably whinge about the GIGANTIC pile of copypasta.

Even if we just go with the list of islamic atrocities since Anders Breivik, 5 years of attacks by untrue scotsmen run to a death toll of tens of thousands.

Got anything more recent?  I mean you lot are always going on about how the far right are this massive scary death mob, so they've got to be at least comparable to poor innocent muslims, right?
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 23, 2016, 09:31:56 pm
Contrarian isn't here because he cares about the victims in Nice, he's here because he wants to rag on Muslims. It's why he waited days to respond to my question because he didn't want to be caught with his pants down. There'd be no propaganda value if it were just another angry twit.

This isn't about religion for types like him, it's about culture. He doesn't have  a coherent answer as to why the bible is less of a bloody document or how people who killed in it's name are less fanatic. Specifically the further things get culturally, linguistically and physically from the home counties of England the more beyond the pale they are for people like him. It's good old fashioned xenophobia, he just doesn't have the stones to admit it.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: SCarpelan on July 24, 2016, 07:41:35 am
I actually don't see a problem with blaming Islam the ideology for the attacks. However I don't blame every Muslim or most Muslims for the attack just as I don't blame followers of the Russian Orthodox Church for war crimes in Checnya.

Blaming ideology of Islam would be the same as blaming the ideology of Christianity for the athrocities in Chechnya or the Westborough Baptist Church. Both Islam and Christianity hold so many conflicting ideologies within them which are constantly adapting to the political and social landscapes that generalizing is misleading. What people mean when they talk about "ideology of Islam" is their superficial interpretation of the multitude of cultures lumped together within the term of "Islam".

As I have said many times, religion is a significant part of the whole equation but still only a part. Simplifying Islam into a heterogenic ideology plays into the harmful and misleading narrative that is constantly built both consciously and unintentionally by different sides in the cultural conflict. I hold no fondness towards any religion myself but I dislike and find it harmful when people simplify multifaceted issues because they come from "the other" outside their everyday experience without listening to people who actually devote their lives to studying these issues. Just to make it clear I'm not talking about religious authorities but academic scholars working for universities and military and intelligence institutions.

Well you can subdivide Islam into its' different sects and regional ideologies if you like, but when 99% of all the terrorist attacks not just in the middle-east and Europe but WORLDWIDE are committed by one or other of those subgroups, it's a pretty irrelevant thing to do.

There is a huge, flashing CITATION NEEDED -notification attached to your figure. On the other hand, it doesn't even matter to this particular point if it was accurate. What definitely matters is to make the distinction which subgroups are the ones who fan the flames in the ongoing conflict. Not only are you not unnecessarily aggravating members of the other subgroups and making them more likely to ally with the ones advocating violence but you can make them your allies. These allies are a vital factor in preventing attacks before they happen since they are the first ones to see the warning signs in the people in their religious communities.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot something. Separating which subgroups are the ones spreading violent propaganda leads to locating the ideologically cancerous influences like the Saudis. They are a huge factor in the ideological conflict within Islam and the West needs to stop enabling them if we want to have an actual long term solution to the problem of Islamic terrorism.
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: TheContrarian on July 26, 2016, 12:21:57 pm
Charleston.

Shooting up abortion clinics.

Tim McVeigh.

Anders Breivik.

(2) is non-specific, (3) was TWENTY-ONE years ago.

Do you really want me to post a list of every islamic terror attack since 1995?  Even if I just restricted it to 2016 you'd probably whinge about the GIGANTIC pile of copypasta.

Even if we just go with the list of islamic atrocities since Anders Breivik, 5 years of attacks by untrue scotsmen run to a death toll of tens of thousands.

Got anything more recent?  I mean you lot are always going on about how the far right are this massive scary death mob, so they've got to be at least comparable to poor innocent muslims, right?
The death toll of Islamic terrorism in the west would be around 4 thousand roughly.

Edit: that's less than the civilian death toll of the first year in Afganistan.

Oh well I guess that makes it all alright then.

Move on everyone, nothing to see here.  ALLAHU ACKBAR!
Title: Re: Attack in Nice
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 26, 2016, 10:00:00 pm
Your cry of solidarity with kindred spirit conservative reactionaries is duly noted!