Author Topic: Nation of whiners?  (Read 16102 times)

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Offline Her3tiK

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Nation of whiners?
« on: July 23, 2012, 08:53:30 pm »
That's the question posed in the discussion below, which stems from this article from Psychology Today. It's a bit on the lengthy side, but well worth the read. The basic premise is that Generation Y (1982-2002) is too lazy and self important, without having any real justification for being either. The discussion on this issue (part 1 of 2; I'll add the 2nd when it's up) is better than the article on its own, I think, but reading the essay itself certainly helps expand on some of the points they commentators don't seem to cover very well.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDWDBzhACgc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDWDBzhACgc</a>

One of the first things both the article and video bring up is how parents today seem to have fostered this "Everyone's a winner" mentality that, if you ask me, diminishes the work of people who actually try to get ahead, and prevents kids from tasting failure. Yeah, having to admit you lost a game or competition sucks, but you have to learn to cope somehow. I haven't had a single teacher or employer who's cared why I wasn't done a task on time. All that mattered was that the work wasn't done, and it was my fault. That's how it works outside of high school, and I see no reason why we can't teach children how to deal with it from a young age. Failure is as much a part of life as success, deal with it. Along these lines, there's also mention of modern parents not letting their children (mostly toddler age from the sound of things) learn and explore at playground alone. Instead, they prefer to teach their kids how to use all the toys and climby things and whatnot, without the risk of injury or failure. That's kind of going to be a recurring theme, here.

The article itself brings up some points that I've been making for a while now. The first that really stuck out for me talks about the obsession with cell phones.
Quote
It's bad enough that today's children are raised in a psychological hothouse where they are overmonitored and oversheltered. But that hothouse no longer has geographical or temporal boundaries. For that you can thank the cell phone. Even in college—or perhaps especially at college—students are typically in contact with their parents several times a day, reporting every flicker of experience. One long-distance call overheard on a recent cross-campus walk: "Hi, Mom. I just got an ice-cream cone; can you believe they put sprinkles on the bottom as well as on top?"

"Kids are constantly talking to parents," laments Cornell student Kramer, which makes them perpetually homesick. Of course, they're not telling the folks everything, notes Portmann. "They're not calling their parents to say, 'I really went wild last Friday at the frat house and now I might have chlamydia. Should I go to the student health center?'"

The perpetual access to parents infantilizes the young, keeping them in a permanent state of dependency. Whenever the slightest difficulty arises, "they're constantly referring to their parents for guidance," reports Kramer. They're not learning how to manage for themselves.
Speaking from personal experience, I don't think many of my friends call their parents daily, but, in high school at least, I recall my parents having a fit if I went anywhere without a cell phone. Apparently I was prime pedo prey or something... anyways, it always bothered me, because it was like having a leash (my ex's parents took that to fucking extremes, holy shit...) that could be tugged on any time. Call during a movie? Leave and pick up. At a concert? God help you if you can't hear or feel it ring. Jesus fuck, does Generation X not remember growing up without the damn things? I'd have loved the ability to go out with friends after school and not have to call to check in every hour. Hell, I think I had more fun the few times I was late home because my phone died, if only because it made not caring about it easier (though my parents would disagree). Granted, college, which is more the target age of the essay, is a bit more lax about that for most people, but it still makes a solid point; if we keep calling our folks over every little thing, how will we learn to think for ourselves and be independent? Don't get me wrong, I love being able to call when I'm really lost, but I can't imagine not being able to figure things out on my own.

Then, there's this point, where I think the paper is a bit off.
Quote
The end result of cheating childhood is to extend it forever. Despite all the parental pressure, and probably because of it, kids are pushing back—in their own way. They're taking longer to grow up.

Adulthood no longer begins when adolescence ends, according to a recent report by University of Pennsylvania sociologist Frank F. Furstenberg and colleagues. There is, instead, a growing no-man's-land of postadolescence from 20 to 30, which they dub "early adulthood." Those in it look like adults but "haven't become fully adult yet—traditionally defined as finishing school, landing a job with benefits, marrying and parenting—because they are not ready or perhaps not permitted to do so."

Using the classic benchmarks of adulthood, 65 percent of males had reached adulthood by the age of 30 in 1960. By contrast, in 2000, only 31 percent had. Among women, 77 percent met the benchmarks of adulthood by age 30 in 1960. By 2000, the number had fallen to 46 percent.
While yes, I do agree that my generation isn't as "mature" as previous generations by the same age, I don't see this as a problem. By comparison, we also live several decades longer on average, so getting a career and family going at a young age isn't as important. Seeing as our average age is somewhere around 80 now, compared to, say 50 (or 30 if you go back a couple centuries), it's no longer as crucial that we decide what we want to do right out of high school, if not before, as I was pressured in to.
This also relates to a point made in the video about how my generation doesn't stay with any one job for as long, and doesn't tend to move up in the company. The point was made, however, that this is also the generation that came of age largely during the '08 meltdown (the year I turned 18), so it's not like we've had a chance at decent employment. Hell, only a handful of my friends have jobs, and most of those are part-time. The rest of us are stuck living off student loans or our parents because nobody will hire us. That, as has been discussed many times on the forums, is more than mere laziness on our part. That doesn't mean it's not a factor, but it's hard to get a job outside of fast food when your resume isn't very impressive and/or there are a few dozen other people looking for the same job.

TL;DR: I think that, while my generation is lazier than it's predecessors, a decent bit of that is because of their coddling and financial carelessness, though I would love to see more of my peers deal with failure and some old-fashioned hands-on labor.
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Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 09:05:28 pm »
I can sympathize with a lot of this (I'm completely dependent on my parents, because I haven't learned basic skills like finding a job or paying a bill), but I wouldn't blame the cell phone for all our problems. I didn't get a cell phone until I was fifteen, and have never had one for longer than a couple months because I function so well without one that I forget and then lose them. It's not the cell phone, it's the helicopter culture.

Offline Her3tiK

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 09:37:13 pm »
I'm not blaming cells alone. I think they're part of it, certainly, but not the whole thing. Though if I had to choose one symbol of this issue, it would probably be the phone, or maybe the participation trophy. One stifles the independence our parents had at the same age, while the other, as I said, diminishes the efforts of the actual winners. The phone happened to be my biggest thing in high school, which is why it got more of a rant.
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Ego: +5

There are a number of ways, though my favourite is simply to take them by surprise. They're just walking down the street, minding their own business when suddenly, WHACK! Penis to the face.

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 10:46:45 pm »
I almost think one should have a license for cell phones, namely because for every person who can use one responsibly, there seems to be an idiot who can't understand that calls should be made either stationary, or with most of your focus being where you're going, and certainly not being used while driving.

On the other side of the issue, I think discovering why children fail is as important as allowing them to fail in the first place.  Some people have learning disabilities.  Others lack proper motivation (and believe it or not, being grounded for failing isn't proper motivation).  Some of it, in some cases, is crippling over-scheduling to the point where it's basically choosing between a social life and grades.  (That being said, I realize that's not a universal condition)

There's also home life to consider, among an infinite number of factors.

Incidentally, I'm of the camp that sees grounding kids for failing an assignment to be more or less the wrong action.  Not abusive, necessarily, but ignorant.  Reward success, don't punish failure.  People do better when they have a reason to succeed, as opposed to a reason to not-fail.

That being said, I also hate the grading curve.  It punishes success and rewards average-ness.  Aiming for high marks means that the other students get punished for your success.  It's also created this sentiment that overachievers are somehow bad.

Of course, for me, success was its own reward, and I recognize that I am unusual for that.  But then I was home schooled, so my experience with public schools is entirely based on third party experiences, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

No Child Left Behind (which is where I believe a good portion of this "Everyone succeeds" mentality became enforced) was the worst thing to happen to schools since...
....

....um....

I'm trying to think of something just as bad being done to schools, but I'm having a hard time coming up with anything.
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Offline Fpqxz

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 01:24:40 am »
Incidentally, I'm of the camp that sees grounding kids for failing an assignment to be more or less the wrong action.  Not abusive, necessarily, but ignorant.  Reward success, don't punish failure.  People do better when they have a reason to succeed, as opposed to a reason to not-fail.

Trufax, right there.  Threat of punishment creates more stress than actual motivation.  (I don't have the actual citation in front of me right now, but I have read a great deal about child psychology and development.)

No Child Left Behind (which is where I believe a good portion of this "Everyone succeeds" mentality became enforced) was the worst thing to happen to schools since...
....

....um....

I'm trying to think of something just as bad being done to schools, but I'm having a hard time coming up with anything.

No Child Left Behind didn't create the problem, which probably began with the Baby Boomer generation started having kids.  It did, however, go a long way toward institutionalizing the problem.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2012, 01:31:43 am »
No Child Left Behind didn't create the problem, which probably began with the Baby Boomer generation started having kids.  It did, however, go a long way toward institutionalizing the problem.

Isn't that what I said? ;D
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Offline Sylvana

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 02:26:02 am »
This is a complex issue, and to a degree, I think I have to agree. I am a 1984 child so I fall into the Y generation but also near the start of it so I have a different perspective. To me phones are annoying most of the time but notably handy. However being near the starting point of Generation Y I was not as influenced by cellular telephone technologies, and hence don't have as much of an over dependence on them or have them act like a leash. That said, my boyfriend who is only 3 years younger than me is largely leashed by his parents and cellphone. They call each other constantly for any number of small things. Missing a call is almost seen as a sin because it results in a barrage of follow up calls and SMSs often merely 10 minutes apart, until he answers, and often the reason for the call is something trivial.

However, I do not think that the cellular telephone issue is a strictly generation Y issue. I think the desire for inter-communication brought about by the cellular telephone has artificially created a dependance on them. My father who is now 60 similarly calls his wife for about everything. Not because he is checking up on her, like the article implies, but the easy of communication creates a habit for regular communication which then turns into a dependance on this constant communication. The newest generation just about have cellular telephones surgically attached to their hands.

I must agree though that there is an extremely high dependence on parents for Generation Y. While I cannot relate to the concept that everyone is a winner, I agree that the parents were overprotective and have resulted in a fear of the outside world. All the difficult decisions were always made by the parents and thus the people of Generation Y have trouble tackling the difficulties involved with living alone. I think this is a factor involved in why it takes so long for generation Y to move out.

I would like to add though, that the early adult life stage is more a symptom of the world we live in than a result of the generation Y. In the decade of the 2000s there were numerous economic bubbles which made debt, housing and employment all the more difficult. Getting a job was and still is extremely difficult and actually succeeding and being promoted is almost impossible. Housing prices are similarly overinflated and, with the employment difficulties, out of the reach of those aged 20 to 30. Similarly the only way for young adults to actually climb the employment ladder they have to switch jobs regularly because most jobs are dead end and through switching they can enter the workforce at a higher level.

In closing, I am inclined to agree with most of the sentiment of the article. While some things are more symptoms of external factors and will undoubtedly greatly influence the next generation. The underlying theme is somewhat correct.

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 09:14:17 am »
Honestly I don't think the issue is all that complex.

I was born in 85, and as I was growing up I steadily watched anything resembling social interaction or activities for children destroyed.

Anything interesting(and generally risky) was replaced with a 'safe'(read: Boring) equivalent because someone might sue. Anything involving kids being able to do things on their own was replaced with guided activity. Anything that gave kids something potentially beyond their abilities replaced with simplified, stupefying content.

We used to have one of those metal pole dome things, you know the bars that let you dangle five feet over cement so that you'd know damn well better than to fall from them? Yeah, replaced with a two foot tall plastic version you can't even get to the top of. Remember, don't try for the top kids, you can't get there (unless you're an enterprising little shit like the kid I saw shimmy his way up it a while back, seemed quite proud of his king of the mountain moment).

Kids going outside? Having friends? Why that'd take them out of the perfectly safe bubble we've made for them. And let's be honest, as a kid being outside can get a tad boring by yourself after a while, so having friends out there to do stupid things unsupervised is really a good chunk of the fun as a kid. I say this having gone from a trailer park with my delinquent(and awesome) friends to a suburb where it was more interesting to fuck around with a computer than deal with the sheltered people out there. Or get yelled at by the neighbors for being too close to their yard. That was always fun.

Though I will admit the article wings my thoughts, it's partly helicopter parents. Who will strap a cellphone to child and expect them to report in every 30 minutes. But then there's the people who just seem determined to remove anything joyful from the world.

That all said, it's not like this is everywhere. I'm in a rather meh set of apartments right now, and it isn't uncommon for me to see kids doing the same kind of stupid shit I did as a kid around here, though without an abandoned quarry to screw with. Could just be the lack of massive tracks of land owned by old people that makes a difference.

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 02:28:49 pm »
No Child Left Behind didn't create the problem, which probably began with the Baby Boomer generation started having kids.  It did, however, go a long way toward institutionalizing the problem.

Isn't that what I said? ;D

OK, maybe I misread your comment; sorry if I did.

I was born in 85, and as I was growing up I steadily watched anything resembling social interaction or activities for children destroyed.

Anything interesting(and generally risky) was replaced with a 'safe'(read: Boring) equivalent because someone might sue. Anything involving kids being able to do things on their own was replaced with guided activity. Anything that gave kids something potentially beyond their abilities replaced with simplified, stupefying content.

This is actually a very valid point.  The whole helicopter parent/"think of the children" phenomenon has done a lot more harm than good.  Kids have to be able to learn things themselves, and that is often done in an unstructured environment.  Sure, that means they will make mistakes.  Maybe even really bad mistakes.  But short of actually committing a felony, most of the mistakes will simply be lessons learned from the School of Hard Knocks.

Kids who are force-fed a set of rules on how to behave, as opposed to how to think and reason, will often find themselves at a loss when the time comes to actually make a decision on their own.  That's not to suggest that parents shouldn't teach their kids to be polite and work hard in school--you know, the basic stuff they should be learning (preferably at a very young age).  But the kids who live sheltered lives, whether for religious or other reasons, often become complete train-wrecks as adults.  I think this is largely because so much of their lives were planned out and decided for them, that they never really learned how to think for themselves.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 02:32:31 pm by Fpqxz »
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Step down Mr. and Mrs. Politically Correct.
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You can't change shit, you're too self-righteous;
you're the bigots you flaunt to loathe.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 05:16:55 pm »
I didn't even get a cell phone until I was, what, 17?

My friends were the neighborhood kids.  We lived on the side of a really tall hill.  I used to ride a bike, and not very well.

When we did travel around, we'd basically travel around in a pack.  And from what I understand, that was more or less common before this age of over-protection.

Yes, I know, there's child predators and children can hurt themselves.  If it bothers you that much, then when your child wants to travel to a playground by him/herself, let him/her and then follow without being seen.  That way, if something DOES happen (like, say, your precious child actually manages to break a leg or something) then you can rush to the rescue.

Or I suppose in this day and age, give them a cell phone and tell them to call you if an emergency happens.  Put it in something so that it won't break easily.  Don't tell them to call in every so often, though.
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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 06:24:12 pm »
A goodly portion of the American population, not just the newest generation, consists of self-entitled and spectacularly uneducated whiners. If you were in elementary school during the Depression you were told life is tough; learning is difficult and you'd damned well better work at it if you want to enjoy a modicum of success; in any form of competition there are winners and losers; and you ain't nuthin' special. It worked pretty good there for a while, until the object of our educational system became "making each child feel good about himself" instead of pounding some learning into his little head.
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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 07:29:09 pm »
(Completely off topic, but Viking, why are all your posts in large print?)

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 07:35:53 pm »
So he can read them better.

Offline Her3tiK

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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2012, 08:11:51 pm »
Aaaand here's Part 2 of the discussion! If it wasn't clear from the OP, I agree with more with the blonde (Samantha) than anyone else in the video.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pSBW9-aplc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pSBW9-aplc</a>
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Re: Nation of whiners?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2012, 08:17:15 pm »
Didn't have a cell phone until I was... 23? 24? Also, born in 83.  I remember the playground and recess pavement well.  Had the scrapes and bruises and cracked my skull more than once falling off the monkey bars.  A lot of it is, as mentioned by others, harder than shit to find decent work for decent hours.  I got slapped for calling out my mom on her usual rejoinder of "I could quit my job and have a new one the next day!" "So do it and prove me wrong!" *slap* "Thank you for proving my point about the economy and your generation, mom."
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 06:18:03 am by Priestling »
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