Author Topic: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington  (Read 387814 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #300 on: January 08, 2017, 06:21:25 am »
For much of the Cold war the code to launch US nuclear missiles was just a row of zeroes because that's what the default was. The fact that no one tried to launch the nukes while joking around or because they wanted to start WW3 is proof enough that people are capable of being good.

People, yes. Trump? Not so sure.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #301 on: January 08, 2017, 06:57:20 am »
For much of the Cold war the code to launch US nuclear missiles was just a row of zeroes because that's what the default was. The fact that no one tried to launch the nukes while joking around or because they wanted to start WW3 is proof enough that people are capable of being good.
Eh, it proves that omnicidal/suicidal types are relatively rare.

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #302 on: January 08, 2017, 07:06:55 am »
Knowing the launch codes would mean all of jack shit for pretty much everyone because contrary to popular belief, you cannot launch nuclear missiles remotely. It can only be done from the silo.

As for the operators themselves, I believe there's something like ten of them that have to hit the launch button simultaneously for anything to happen, and they're all armed and under orders to kill any fellow operators who try anything funny (as are the rest of the staff, most likely), so that option is also extremely unlikely.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #303 on: January 08, 2017, 07:55:13 am »
Couple of interesting takeaways from a Marcotte article up on Slate, the article looked into a new poll conducted by the Glover Park Group and Morning Consult.

(click to show/hide)
Trump supporters are actually kind of divided about how much to regulate Wall St, except for a bunch of them that don't know or don't care.
(click to show/hide)
Similar number are divided on whether foreign trade is a good or bad thing, with a similar number not knowing or caring.
(click to show/hide)
While they aren't united on economic issues it seems whole lot of them don't like continued immigration under H1 Visas, Melenia seems to be a blind spot.
And Obamacare...
(click to show/hide)
WHAAARGRBLLL...

Her takeaway.
Quote
...new polling data suggesting that Trump voters are an incoherent mess when you ask them about regulating the financial industries or corruption in politics, but have a strongly cohesive ideology when it comes to race or gender issues.

But, but I thought it was all about draining swamps and the white working class, also something about "liberal elites".

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #304 on: January 08, 2017, 06:09:27 pm »
Because calling everyone who wanted to vote for Trump "racist and sexist" worked out so well in 2016. That's why Hillary Clinton's going to be President in less than two weeks. And that's why there's a Democratic majority in the Senate.

...Oh wait, there isn't, and she won't be.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #305 on: January 08, 2017, 06:31:49 pm »
Because calling everyone who wanted to vote for Trump "racist and sexist" worked out so well in 2016. That's why Hillary Clinton's going to be President in less than two weeks. And that's why there's a Democratic majority in the Senate.

...Oh wait, there isn't, and she won't be.

This. Trying to shame people into turning against Trump only helped him and the GOP. Doubling down will just make things worse.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #306 on: January 08, 2017, 07:45:21 pm »
Because calling everyone who wanted to vote for Trump "racist and sexist" worked out so well in 2016. That's why Hillary Clinton's going to be President in less than two weeks. And that's why there's a Democratic majority in the Senate.

...Oh wait, there isn't, and she won't be.
Well if the data shows that Republicans who were in fact racist were more in favor of Trump than less racist candidates why not call it by it's name? Oh, I forgot. Pesky facts hurt Repub feels, my bad.

Yeah, economics played a part in this election. But when surveyed Trump voters are united in issues towards race, religion, migration and gender-the "culture war" issues. Not so much economics, to stay mum about this because you might upset some on the fence voters is to encourage willful ignorance.

Brexit was also more about "values" like support of capital punishment and opposing ethnic diversity than it was about the economy.

Quote
This is shown in figure 4. Disciplining children and whipping sex criminals (circled), keeping the nation safe, protecting social order and skepticism (‘few products live up to the claims of their advertisers…products don’t last as long as they used to’) correlate with Brexit sentiment. These attitude dimensions cluster within the third of the map known as the ‘Settlers’, for whom belonging, certainty, roots and safety are paramount. This segment is also disproportionately opposed to immigration in virtually every country Dade has sampled. By contrast, people oriented toward success and display (‘Prospectors’), or who prioritise expressive individualism and cultural equality (‘Pioneers’) voted Remain.

How about that?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 07:54:07 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #307 on: January 08, 2017, 07:52:46 pm »
Considering how tight the election was (less than 80,000 votes over three states), the economic issues could well have pushed Trump over the top, but the base was the bigoted stuff.

And one thing I found interesting about the sexism was that the sort of sexists who supported Trump were the actively woman-hating kind of sexists. The traditional-gender-roles sexists did not go disproportionately to Trump, even though President isn't exactly a "traditional role" for women in US society.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #308 on: January 08, 2017, 08:03:59 pm »
Considering how tight the election was (less than 80,000 votes over three states), the economic issues could well have pushed Trump over the top, but the base was the bigoted stuff.

And one thing I found interesting about the sexism was that the sort of sexists who supported Trump were the actively woman-hating kind of sexists. The traditional-gender-roles sexists did not go disproportionately to Trump, even though President isn't exactly a "traditional role" for women in US society.
I agree that economic issues could well have been an issue in the former "rust belt" areas, but
whites across the socioeconomic spectrum overwhelmingly voted for Trump. The glue that held them together was whiteness, not class.

I agree that the Centrist parties the world over aren't doing enough to adress middle class and working class concerns because they work for the upper class, but people tut tutting others for merely identifying the nativist, xenophobic and quite frankly racist and sexist trends taking place across the world are fooling themselves.

There's also the assumption that those voting Trump would have even been aware of the scorn of the "East Coast elites" or felt sore because of their accusations of racism given that Trump voters don't even consume the same media as Democrat voters.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 09:03:31 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #309 on: January 08, 2017, 08:36:28 pm »
Considering how tight the election was (less than 80,000 votes over three states), the economic issues could well have pushed Trump over the top, but the base was the bigoted stuff.

And one thing I found interesting about the sexism was that the sort of sexists who supported Trump were the actively woman-hating kind of sexists. The traditional-gender-roles sexists did not go disproportionately to Trump, even though President isn't exactly a "traditional role" for women in US society.
I agree that economic issues could well have been an issue in the former "rust belt" areas, but whites across the socioeconomic spectrum overwhelmingly voted for Trump. The glue that held them together was whiteness, not class.

I agree that the Centrist parties the world over aren't doing enough to adress middle class and working class concerns because they work for the upper class, but people tut tutting others for merely identifying the nativist, xenophobic and quite frankly racist and sexist trends taking place across the world are fooling themselves.

There's also the assumption that those voting Trump would have even been aware of the scorn of the "East Coast elites" or felt sore because of their accusations of racism given that Trump voters don't even consume the same media as Democrat voters.

Your first link doesn't seem to be working. And your second link doesn't say that Republicans and Democrats consume different media, just that partisan outlets influence people's votes.
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Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #310 on: January 08, 2017, 08:37:06 pm »
Because calling everyone who wanted to vote for Trump "racist and sexist" worked out so well in 2016. That's why Hillary Clinton's going to be President in less than two weeks. And that's why there's a Democratic majority in the Senate.

...Oh wait, there isn't, and she won't be.
Well if the data shows that Republicans who were in fact racist were more in favor of Trump than less racist candidates why not call it by it's name? Oh, I forgot. Pesky facts hurt Repub feels, my bad.

Yeah, economics played a part in this election. But when surveyed Trump voters are united in issues towards race, religion, migration and gender-the "culture war" issues. Not so much economics, to stay mum about this because you might upset some on the fence voters is to encourage willful ignorance.

Brexit was also more about "values" like support of capital punishment and opposing ethnic diversity than it was about the economy.

Quote
This is shown in figure 4. Disciplining children and whipping sex criminals (circled), keeping the nation safe, protecting social order and skepticism (‘few products live up to the claims of their advertisers…products don’t last as long as they used to’) correlate with Brexit sentiment. These attitude dimensions cluster within the third of the map known as the ‘Settlers’, for whom belonging, certainty, roots and safety are paramount. This segment is also disproportionately opposed to immigration in virtually every country Dade has sampled. By contrast, people oriented toward success and display (‘Prospectors’), or who prioritise expressive individualism and cultural equality (‘Pioneers’) voted Remain.

How about that?

I don't think I ever mentioned anything about 'don't upset the poor Republicans', but hey, thanks for putting those words in my mouth. I'm sure as a liberal Democrat, it's totally fair to basically call me a Republican sympathizer. My point was, that strategy didn't win. And as we've talked about earlier, talking about how "all those Trump voters are just a bunch of racists and sexists" didn't actually sway anyone away from Trump, which is kind of appalling considering how terrible a candidate he was. And yet, we're still hearing about it. I'm no Trump voter, I personally despise the man and think he's going to ruin our country, along with every one of his corporatist, slimy, and yes, bigoted cabinet picks. But let's be real here - the media message over the last year has been "Voting for Trump makes you a racist, a sexist, and a terrible person", and only after November 8th are people starting to realize that no, it doesn't necessarily mean that.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this so I'll just leave this here, I've gotta go get dinner anyway.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #311 on: January 08, 2017, 09:04:00 pm »
Considering how tight the election was (less than 80,000 votes over three states), the economic issues could well have pushed Trump over the top, but the base was the bigoted stuff.

And one thing I found interesting about the sexism was that the sort of sexists who supported Trump were the actively woman-hating kind of sexists. The traditional-gender-roles sexists did not go disproportionately to Trump, even though President isn't exactly a "traditional role" for women in US society.
I agree that economic issues could well have been an issue in the former "rust belt" areas, but whites across the socioeconomic spectrum overwhelmingly voted for Trump. The glue that held them together was whiteness, not class.

I agree that the Centrist parties the world over aren't doing enough to adress middle class and working class concerns because they work for the upper class, but people tut tutting others for merely identifying the nativist, xenophobic and quite frankly racist and sexist trends taking place across the world are fooling themselves.

There's also the assumption that those voting Trump would have even been aware of the scorn of the "East Coast elites" or felt sore because of their accusations of racism given that Trump voters don't even consume the same media as Democrat voters.
Your first link doesn't seem to be working. And your second link doesn't say that Republicans and Democrats consume different media, just that partisan outlets influence people's votes.
First borked link fixed. Secondly, here's some data showing that conservatives overwhelmingly cluster around a single news source. Guess who?
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 09:09:43 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #312 on: January 08, 2017, 09:16:53 pm »

I don't think I ever mentioned anything about 'don't upset the poor Republicans', but hey, thanks for putting those words in my mouth. I'm sure as a liberal Democrat, it's totally fair to basically call me a Republican sympathizer. My point was, that strategy didn't win. And as we've talked about earlier, talking about how "all those Trump voters are just a bunch of racists and sexists" didn't actually sway anyone away from Trump, which is kind of appalling considering how terrible a candidate he was. And yet, we're still hearing about it. I'm no Trump voter, I personally despise the man and think he's going to ruin our country, along with every one of his corporatist, slimy, and yes, bigoted cabinet picks. But let's be real here - the media message over the last year has been "Voting for Trump makes you a racist, a sexist, and a terrible person", and only after November 8th are people starting to realize that no, it doesn't necessarily mean that.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this so I'll just leave this here, I've gotta go get dinner anyway.

I don't know if the word "deplorables" counts as a strategy, it's true that Clinton campaigned negatively but that one instance aside more negativity was aimed at the candidate than the support base. In any case, merely mentioning that a whole lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist isn't an attempt to sway. It's what the Trump voters suggest themselves when polled. It's data, it's not a strategy to win an election that happened last year.

The media reporting that a lot of Trump voters seemed to be motivated by racial animus wasn't a campaign strategy either, it's what the media are supposed to do. Report on a political phenomenon that's happening. You could argue they were wrong, but the data seems to be pointing to the conclusion that they were right about Trumps base being motivated at least in part by plain old racism.

Offline Askold

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #313 on: January 09, 2017, 05:05:42 am »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHO31oi2OrE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHO31oi2OrE</a>


...I can't decide if that's even better than the Zapp Brannigan / Trump video.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #314 on: January 09, 2017, 04:35:06 pm »
Come to think of it, Lex Luthor was elected president at one point. Oh, what I wouldn't give to have Superman show up and stop Trump.
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