FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Id82 on October 17, 2018, 11:54:37 pm
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I got into a discussion with my very conservative father in law who told me that Barack Obama was the most liberal president he has ever seen, and I thought really? More liberal than FDR or LBJ? He then went on to say blah blah blah Obamacare is socialized medicine and repeated some fox news talking points, but it got me thinking. Is the country just in a conservative era, and what would it take to shift the overton window back into a liberal era?
I would like to think that the country was a liberal shifted country from 1933 to 1982 after the election of FDR until the election of Ronald Reagan where the country shifted from another conservative era after the stock market crashed and a lot of liberal policies, high taxes on the wealthy, five democratic presidents and a democratic dominated congress occurred. Even the two Republicans elected (I don't count Ford since he pretty much just finished out Nixon's term) in that time passed things that would be considered liberal. Eisenhower expanded the highway systems and even Nixon created the EPA. The democratic party shifted from having conservatives in their party to being very liberal.
But it seems like after the baby boomers and young gen xer's came of age, and increased anger from Southern states after the civil rights act was passed, the country voted in Reagan in a huge landslide and changed the country from liberal to conservative. Nearly forty years later the country has had three Republican presidents and two Democrats, and one could argue that Clinton and Obama were pretty center. There's some progress that has been made but it's had to fight against a strong renewed religious right and fiscal conservatives that dominate the political discussion with low taxes for the wealthy and corporations. 9/11 happened which turned US conservatives from somewhat accepting to highly xenophobic and paranoid, and now nearly forty years later since Reagan we have Trump in office with increasing deficits, recordly low taxes, increasing income inequality, very strong religious right representation in government, catering to corporate needs over people's needs, an emboldened nationalist sentiment and liberals have been demonized by a very fringe Right wing. It would seem like it's hard to be a liberal in America right now. Every progress that people want to be made or need to make is shot down by corporations.
But just by looking at history political dominance shifts, and it seems to happen every thirty to forty years or so.
My question would be would you agree we are living in a conservative era of the United states, and if so when do you predict things might shift to the other side? What would it take to shift things politically to the left to a new era? Another great depression that would finally wake American's up? An incoming increase in Millennials entering office who generationally have been pretty liberal compared to their parents. Or a strong Millennial president that finally excites and unites the country around them?
If you can't tell I'm very interested in political shifts.
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Oh, hi, Buckley v. Valeo.
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Well I'll have more to say on this later, but it's important to remember that of the seven elections the US has had in my lifetime, the democrats won the popular vote in six. The republicans far rights ideology isn't really all that popular, the rules of the game are just heavily rigged in their favor.
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I think the change in the evangelical vote is really interesting. When the evangelicals abandoned Jimmy Carter (who was evangelical and a guy who I think represents the better aspect of Christians) to give their vote to Reagan (who was a Hollywood actor) they sold their soul.
In all appears to be about abortion which wasn't even a major Christian issue until the late early 80s.
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It was partly abortion (though evangelicals were pro-choice, once upon a time) but also partly racism; see Coit v. Green.
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As a crude simplification you can look at the situation since the end of the cold war as the right winning on the economical front and the left winning on the cultural front. Both situations have caused a hegemony in their respective spheres where even center left has been promoting the interests of capital instead of labor and the center right has at least given lip service to minority rights and even the more conservative elements have had to use dog whistles instead of direct racism/sexism/etc. These hegemonies are now breaking and there is a backlash against both.
To me it sounds like the conservatives in the US live in an alternative reality built by the talk radio, Fox News and more lately ultra-conservative new media. While Obama and both Clintons are typical products of these hegemonies the propaganda machine has built them as radical socialist threats to the 'Murrican way of life.
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If by conservatism, you mean prioritising the interests of the elites over the rest of society, that's easy. Between campaigning being impossible without huge sums of money to throw around, and lobbyists being a thing, it's incredibly difficult for anyone not corrupt to have even the slightest chance of getting elected. Add in media that is wholly owned and therefore run in the interests of said elites further stacking the deck against non-corrupt politicians and it's hardly surprising things are so fucked Stateside.
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Well I'll have more to say on this later, but it's important to remember that of the seven elections the US has had in my lifetime, the democrats won the popular vote in six. The republicans far rights ideology isn't really all that popular, the rules of the game are just heavily rigged in their favor.
It may not be popular but it's winning where it counts which is generally the states with less populations spread out with lower educated older white voters, and these are the people who tend to vote in the mid terms as well. Which I think is pretty much what you're saying. At some point in the past, states where hard labor work is valued more over an education shifted favor to the Republican party, which is probably why we've had Republican presidents who speak at lower grade levels because if he talks like I do then he has to care for my needs. Mean while these Republican leaders are making their daily lives more difficult for them.
I think the change in the evangelical vote is really interesting. When the evangelicals abandoned Jimmy Carter (who was evangelical and a guy who I think represents the better aspect of Christians) to give their vote to Reagan (who was a Hollywood actor) they sold their soul.
In all appears to be about abortion which wasn't even a major Christian issue until the late early 80s.
I would also say that Nixon's southern strategy played a lot into this as well as the civil rights act passed by LBJ. Jimmy Carter might have been seen as a last hurrah by Southern democrats before they completely shifted to the Republican party with that goes the large amount of evangelical voters who live in the Southern states. I think the political shift of southern democrats to southern republicans is a major reason why we have a conservative leaning country.
As a crude simplification you can look at the situation since the end of the cold war as the right winning on the economical front and the left winning on the cultural front. Both situations have caused a hegemony in their respective spheres where even center left has been promoting the interests of capital instead of labor and the center right has at least given lip service to minority rights and even the more conservative elements have had to use dog whistles instead of direct racism/sexism/etc. These hegemonies are now breaking and there is a backlash against both.
To me it sounds like the conservatives in the US live in an alternative reality built by the talk radio, Fox News and more lately ultra-conservative new media. While Obama and both Clintons are typical products of these hegemonies the propaganda machine has built them as radical socialist threats to the 'Murrican way of life.
I think what is happening is White are realizing that they are heading towards a minority in the states. Especially White cisgendered men who have all of the power and have had all of the power since the countries founding. So while there has been some progress on the cultural front I think it's only strengthened conservatives in the states to fight back this forseen decline in white power in the country. I think Barack Obama scared a lot of white people which is one reason we have Trump.
I think scared white people, emboldened religious right, strong right wing talking heads and the rich able to control fiscal policy is making the country conservative.
I've been reading a lot about what they call the Great Progression which is the period from 1930 to 1980 in which there was strong progressive taxation and equal growth along with equal pay, and the period now that they call the Great Regression which started in the 80s which has seen huge wealth inequality due to globalization and the wealthy being able to control Washington. It's pretty interesting because the last time we've had wealth inequality this great was right before the great Depression.
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People who think Dems and Obama etc are liberals or leftists etc....they'd shit bricks if they ever bothered to learn about Europe. By our standards America does not have a left wing party; just two right wing parties where one is much closer to center than the other.
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People who think Dems and Obama etc are liberals or leftists etc....they'd shit bricks if they ever bothered to learn about Europe. By our standards America does not have a left wing party; just two right wing parties where one is much closer to center than the other.
I know people who are well aware of the fact that by European standards the Democrats are centre-right (and that Sanders is a centrist) and the Republicans are solidly right (if not far-right) and lament the fact that so many European countries have no major party that espouses the current conservative orthodoxy in the US.
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It sounds like the opposite of what we have here.
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I blame the party’s respective purity tests: Democrats don’t vote in the general unless their candidate is ideologically pure, and Republicans always vote for “their guy” only imposing the purity test in the primaries. Ergo, we get the most right wing leaders because everyone is too busy crying that so and so “isn’t sufficiently liberal” or is a “DINO.”
Oh well.
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A lot of Republicans are usually single voter issues and don't seem to care if they get screwed over everywhere else. I know my father in law voted for Trump and Republicans to get rid of Obamacare and said he could care less about the insensitive shit Trump has said. It's more like the old statement Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line.
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Parliamentary constitutional monarchy, proportional representation.
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That's the same thing the whole way through - the right wing prioritizes blind loyalty and obedience to authority. If given more power, they start as we saw basically going "we will KILL you if you dare defy authority."
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To be fair, Niam, I think that's a power thing and not a party thing. Here in lovely Baltimore, MD. the Democrats have been in charge since we threw the English out. And the rampant abuse and corruption is near Taminy Hall levels. They took out Det. Shawn Suiter who wouldn't go along.
I think your sentiment should read "authority prioritizes blind loyalty and....".
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I think inevitable change has a lot to do with it, the 1%'s of this world are divided between denying the reality of climate change and paying lip service to it while practically doing very little because responding to this unique threat requires checking unchecked growth. "Laissez faire" capitalism and "free trade" are the only solutions they'll allow even though they are pouring petrol on the fires.
These people know that major structural shifts are coming because of interconnected factors like climate change, the rise of nationalist populism and the slow disintegration of nation-states on the fringes. Their response to that is to do what they always do, circle the wagons and protect themselves. Give more draconian powers to law enforcement and usher in more authoritarian governments that will shield them from criticism, judgement and responsibility.
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Yeah, I don't think we're living in a conservative era so much as we are in a populist one.
And, unfortunately, populist conservatives (ie fake populists) have generally done a better job of harnessing populism than populist progressives have.
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I think the change in the evangelical vote is really interesting. When the evangelicals abandoned Jimmy Carter (who was evangelical and a guy who I think represents the better aspect of Christians) to give their vote to Reagan (who was a Hollywood actor) they sold their soul.
In all appears to be about abortion which wasn't even a major Christian issue until the late early 80s.
The GOP evangelicals no longer follow the Christian Jesus; they follow this guy instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2L-R8NgrA
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Now, they worship a literal orange or more properly a "golden" cow.
And this is reflected in how poorly they did at the House Elections. Simply put, nobody else than Evangelicals worship the ground Trump walks on outside of literal Neo-Nazis, who see him as Der Fuehrer 2.0.
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Evangelicals wouldn't be so with Trump if Mike Pence wasn't there. It's the only reason he's the VP.
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Evangelicals wouldn't be so with Trump if Mike Pence wasn't there. It's the only reason he's the VP.
Evangelicals broke hard for Trump in the Republican primary. Remember that what got evangelical Christians politically active was Coit v. Green, not Roe v. Wade--in fact, until (I believe) 2002 the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (or some such group) had a statement in its manifesto in support of abortion rights. The involvement with the anti-abortion movement was a tactic to get around the Carter administration's tax crackdown on groups promoting racial discrimination. Prior to that, it was mainly northern Catholics who opposed abortion rights. (Well, them and Christopher Hitchens.)