Author Topic: Personal responsibility and health care  (Read 12859 times)

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deadpandoubter

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2012, 02:11:17 am »
You commie liberal hippies. You seem to think that better healthcare will MAKE people healthier. That's crazy! Don't you know all doctors everywhere just want the money? Healthcare doesn't make you healthier; bootstraps do!

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2012, 03:38:06 am »
Funny story from Paul Krugman's book. Truman was trying to legislate universal health insurance, and he was looking like succeeding. Until the insurance industry ran a campaign in the South, telling everyone that 'dem blacks would also receive insurance, that they'd have to share hospitals and so on. 'Undeserving' doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Offline StallChaser

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2012, 07:02:22 am »
The personal responsibility + slippery slope argument is part of why the right wingnuts hate national health care so much.  Because personal choices affect the cost of health care, the government will control all your personal choices.  Never mind that simply by the fact that the government exists alongside people, personal choices will affect the cost of governing, leading to the same conclusion.

Its stupid, because health care costs will still average out to be much lower, but just you try to explain that to a determined conspiracy theorist...

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 08:24:05 am »
One thing I say in response to this argument is are they capable of making the proper decisions.
Like with diabetes you can eat better if you can afford it but so many foods that are cheap are high in fake sugar and salt and fat

Offline TheUnknown

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 10:01:28 am »
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Given a good majority of these people come from a Christian background, I wonder if they ever think about helping their fellow man rather than taking away.

Given the responses on Christian forums, their sole reason seems to be that 'helping their fellow man' should be charity work, which should be strictly voluntary.  They then say that the Bible is also against stealing, which they claim would be anything government mandated, like healthcare.

Offline D Laurier

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 10:11:15 am »
Wasn't there a government program in Canada that gave heroin addicts free heroin? And then instead of resorting to crime, they got a chance to check into rehab if they wanted to get off the drug?

Because I like that idea.

There was.
The Harperites have cut all funding. Now it's gone.
It was a good program, suplying clean needles, and a safe space. Councilors on hand to help addicts who wanted to get off the ride.
It saved lives... so the Harperites killed it.
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Offline rageaholic

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 10:38:17 am »
I posted a rant about the same "personal responsibility" line on another forum.  I argued that it was bullshit for the same reasons pointed out her, shit happens. 

IMO, those who use that line are just being jerks under the guise of being responsible and moral.  They think nothing bad will ever happen to them because they take all the precautions and don't make careless mistakes.  This is ignoring that anyone can make careless mistakes and that you shouldn't have to suffer greatly for them. 

*Cue the story about how they made mistakes but owned up to them and accepted the "consequences"*

Offline D Laurier

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 12:06:59 pm »
The problem is that you can be walking along on the sidewalk, and a drunk driver can still plow into you at 65 klicks, and turn your pelvis and femurs into gravel.
You can still get cancer from the radioactive shoe that was buried in your backyard before you were born.
There is nothing "careless" about your choices, but you still need expensive medical treatment. And if your private insurance decides to withold coverage, you are still left with a hospital bill for more than you will earn in this lifetime.
Public healthcare eliminates the problem of not being able to afford basic healthcare.
Vanity care such as breast implants and facelifts can still be run through private companies, but nobody should be forced to sell their home to pay for their child's lukemia treatments.
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Offline clockworkgirl21

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2012, 12:43:43 pm »
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That's the rub. I think they do know this, that so called socialized medicine is cheaper.

And they don't care.

It's the idea that some where someone they think undeserving is benefitting with money the con had to pay.  Even if the con benefits too, they dont' care.  They seem perfectly willing to shoulder that extra cost as long as those "unworthies" don't get a leg up.

It's crab mentality.

I have to give you karma for this. That's exactly it. Taxes for socialized medicine would be a hell of a lot cheaper than insurance, and you'd get a lot more out of it. But people would rather pay more and get less than have their money go towards helping someone else.

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2012, 01:52:20 pm »
I can see not being particularly sympathetic to somebody who has brought something on themselves, but that doesn't mean I won't help them... yay for basic human decency.

By the same token, if I have to choose between helping someone who luck has simply kicked in the balls and someone who knows better and did it anyway, I'll pick the poor unlucky bastard. If you have one kidney to transplant and have to decide between the type 2 diabetic who eats at McDonalds 4 times a day, never exercises and doesn't even try to manage their disease or the diabetic that tries to live properly who are you going to choose?  If you have limited resources, you are going to have to decide who gets them and it is perfectly reasonable to pick the one who is most likely to make the most of the opportunity.

Of course, there are a lot of the people out there who think any resources spent on aiding others is too much. Fuck them.

Offline booley

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 09:06:27 pm »
... They then say that the Bible is also against stealing, which they claim would be anything government mandated, like healthcare.

Doesn't " that "give unto ceasar what is ceasar's" thing cover that?
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 09:31:06 pm »
The problem with denying government healthcare to people based on their lifestyle choices is that you can't always tell if it was that exact cause that caused the illness, or if they are predisposed to it in some other way. For example, in my opinion it is wrong to refuse to treat an alcoholic's liver problem on the grounds that they chose to drink. You don't know if they are drinking because of trauma, if they are genetically predisposed to alcohol abuse, or if their liver problems were brought on by other causes entirely.
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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2012, 03:03:41 am »
Not to mention that at one point, you're going to have to draw a line.  Otherwise, being born into a family with heart problems will be your fault.
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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 11:29:11 am »
Its stupid, because health care costs will still average out to be much lower, but just you try to explain that to a determined conspiracy theorist...

I can't remember who it was, but someone here used to have a sig that compared (and I quote) "math-ignorant cretins" to a deer caught in the headlights, in reference to the financial crisis. It seems appropriate here, too,
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Offline Vene

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 12:17:08 pm »
Its stupid, because health care costs will still average out to be much lower, but just you try to explain that to a determined conspiracy theorist...

I can't remember who it was, but someone here used to have a sig that compared (and I quote) "math-ignorant cretins" to a deer caught in the headlights, in reference to the financial crisis. It seems appropriate here, too,
Oh yeah, I remember when I had that quote.
Every single cockeyed financial decision made by governments, companies and individuals is your fault. You should have known, you math-ignorant cretin; you should have found out what the numbers mean, but instead you just stared like a deer at the headlights unable to differentiate between a million and a billion.
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