Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1533475 times)

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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #165 on: July 07, 2013, 03:50:41 am »
Heres a good post in the huge trashpile of that tag

Quote
To me queer fetishization has always been the tokenism we see in the vast majority of commercial media narratives: the Sassy Gay Friend, the sexless B plot, the punchline, the committed couple that get to hug on screen but don’t get to kiss. To me, queer fetishization is the moment where a person talks about how hot same-sex porn is, but then don’t want their gay neighbor to be able to get married. To me, queer fetishization is the gaggle of straight people that come to the gay bar to drink and dance, but are petrified of being hit on by any queer people that might just happen to be there.

I’m not offended by straight people writing queer characters or narratives in which a romance between two queer characters is what drives the story. I think many mistakes can be made in characterization of both individuals and culture and I think privilege can preclude writers from fully grasping certain situations. But, in my experience, more often than not, amazing narratives come from amazing writers who care and pay attention to detail, whatever their sexual identity is, wherever they come from.

See, this is a good argument and actually touches on the big picture, not stupid little fanfictions
Now, that one is much more sane. While I don't agree with "the Sassy Gay Friend, the sexless B plot, the punchline, the committed couple that get to hug on screen but don’t get to kiss" as fetishization, the rest is true, and that kind of stuff is still bad. I still think Willow/Tara on Buffy The Vampire Slayer was the best written gay couple in television, and that Glee should be burnt because it's just insulting to gays. This one gets to the point of things, and isn't written by a total idiot.


I think I can agree with everything except the "straight people go into gay bar for dance and drinks but don't want to get hit on" part. I mean straight people go to straigth bars for dance and drink as well and not all of them want to be hit on. And even if they are looking for "action" it does not mean that they would want to return the advances of just anyone.

In fact people regardless of their sexual orientation or location have no obligation to return the advances of anyone who wants to hit on them. People still have the right to decide who they want to get intimate with. If a lesbian woman is in a bar just to have drinks with her friends and a random drunken guy tries to get in her pants... Well, you wouldn't be amazed if she doesn't respond well to that.

Still, I agree with most of that post. I am particulalry still amazed that some of the same people who (openly) drool over lesbian porn suddenly claim that same sex marriage is so utterly immoral and deprived that it cannot be allowed...
True, but those kind of situations are not what they're speaking of. They are speaking of straight people who do not want any gay people to hit on them in a gay bar.
And that is different because?
It's one thing to only want to be hit on people you're into. It's another to go to a gay bar and not want to be hit on by gay people. Gay bars exist for gay people. You know what you call a gay bar where there's tons of heterosexual flirting? A bar. If you don't want to get hit on by any gay people, do not go to a gay bar.
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Offline LeTipex

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #166 on: July 07, 2013, 09:04:29 am »
Heres a good post in the huge trashpile of that tag

Quote
To me queer fetishization has always been the tokenism we see in the vast majority of commercial media narratives: the Sassy Gay Friend, the sexless B plot, the punchline, the committed couple that get to hug on screen but don’t get to kiss. To me, queer fetishization is the moment where a person talks about how hot same-sex porn is, but then don’t want their gay neighbor to be able to get married. To me, queer fetishization is the gaggle of straight people that come to the gay bar to drink and dance, but are petrified of being hit on by any queer people that might just happen to be there.

I’m not offended by straight people writing queer characters or narratives in which a romance between two queer characters is what drives the story. I think many mistakes can be made in characterization of both individuals and culture and I think privilege can preclude writers from fully grasping certain situations. But, in my experience, more often than not, amazing narratives come from amazing writers who care and pay attention to detail, whatever their sexual identity is, wherever they come from.

See, this is a good argument and actually touches on the big picture, not stupid little fanfictions
Now, that one is much more sane. While I don't agree with "the Sassy Gay Friend, the sexless B plot, the punchline, the committed couple that get to hug on screen but don’t get to kiss" as fetishization, the rest is true, and that kind of stuff is still bad. I still think Willow/Tara on Buffy The Vampire Slayer was the best written gay couple in television, and that Glee should be burnt because it's just insulting to gays. This one gets to the point of things, and isn't written by a total idiot.


I think I can agree with everything except the "straight people go into gay bar for dance and drinks but don't want to get hit on" part. I mean straight people go to straigth bars for dance and drink as well and not all of them want to be hit on. And even if they are looking for "action" it does not mean that they would want to return the advances of just anyone.

In fact people regardless of their sexual orientation or location have no obligation to return the advances of anyone who wants to hit on them. People still have the right to decide who they want to get intimate with. If a lesbian woman is in a bar just to have drinks with her friends and a random drunken guy tries to get in her pants... Well, you wouldn't be amazed if she doesn't respond well to that.

Still, I agree with most of that post. I am particulalry still amazed that some of the same people who (openly) drool over lesbian porn suddenly claim that same sex marriage is so utterly immoral and deprived that it cannot be allowed...
True, but those kind of situations are not what they're speaking of. They are speaking of straight people who do not want any gay people to hit on them in a gay bar.
And that is different because?
It's one thing to only want to be hit on people you're into. It's another to go to a gay bar and not want to be hit on by gay people. Gay bars exist for gay people. You know what you call a gay bar where there's tons of heterosexual flirting? A bar. If you don't want to get hit on by any gay people, do not go to a gay bar.
I think what he was trying to say was "Sometimes you go to a (not gay) bar without wanting to be hit on (by heterosexual people), and sometimes you go to a gay bar without wanting to be hit on (by gay people). You can go to a bar to drink and dance and not flirt, and the fact that it's a gay bar or not isn't the determining factor in that."

Which, as a bi guy, is something I can get behind. Sometimes you go out to score, and sometimes you go out to drink and do crazy stuff with your friends and don't want to be bothered by stranger. The fact that you're in a gay bar or not doesn't alway have to factor into that.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #167 on: July 07, 2013, 09:13:52 am »
Heres a good post in the huge trashpile of that tag

Quote
To me queer fetishization has always been the tokenism we see in the vast majority of commercial media narratives: the Sassy Gay Friend, the sexless B plot, the punchline, the committed couple that get to hug on screen but don’t get to kiss. To me, queer fetishization is the moment where a person talks about how hot same-sex porn is, but then don’t want their gay neighbor to be able to get married. To me, queer fetishization is the gaggle of straight people that come to the gay bar to drink and dance, but are petrified of being hit on by any queer people that might just happen to be there.

I’m not offended by straight people writing queer characters or narratives in which a romance between two queer characters is what drives the story. I think many mistakes can be made in characterization of both individuals and culture and I think privilege can preclude writers from fully grasping certain situations. But, in my experience, more often than not, amazing narratives come from amazing writers who care and pay attention to detail, whatever their sexual identity is, wherever they come from.

See, this is a good argument and actually touches on the big picture, not stupid little fanfictions
Now, that one is much more sane. While I don't agree with "the Sassy Gay Friend, the sexless B plot, the punchline, the committed couple that get to hug on screen but don’t get to kiss" as fetishization, the rest is true, and that kind of stuff is still bad. I still think Willow/Tara on Buffy The Vampire Slayer was the best written gay couple in television, and that Glee should be burnt because it's just insulting to gays. This one gets to the point of things, and isn't written by a total idiot.


I think I can agree with everything except the "straight people go into gay bar for dance and drinks but don't want to get hit on" part. I mean straight people go to straigth bars for dance and drink as well and not all of them want to be hit on. And even if they are looking for "action" it does not mean that they would want to return the advances of just anyone.

In fact people regardless of their sexual orientation or location have no obligation to return the advances of anyone who wants to hit on them. People still have the right to decide who they want to get intimate with. If a lesbian woman is in a bar just to have drinks with her friends and a random drunken guy tries to get in her pants... Well, you wouldn't be amazed if she doesn't respond well to that.

Still, I agree with most of that post. I am particulalry still amazed that some of the same people who (openly) drool over lesbian porn suddenly claim that same sex marriage is so utterly immoral and deprived that it cannot be allowed...
True, but those kind of situations are not what they're speaking of. They are speaking of straight people who do not want any gay people to hit on them in a gay bar.
And that is different because?
It's one thing to only want to be hit on people you're into. It's another to go to a gay bar and not want to be hit on by gay people. Gay bars exist for gay people. You know what you call a gay bar where there's tons of heterosexual flirting? A bar. If you don't want to get hit on by any gay people, do not go to a gay bar.
I think what he was trying to say was "Sometimes you go to a (not gay) bar without wanting to be hit on (by heterosexual people), and sometimes you go to a gay bar without wanting to be hit on (by gay people). You can go to a bar to drink and dance and not flirt, and the fact that it's a gay bar or not isn't the determining factor in that."

Which, as a bi guy, is something I can get behind. Sometimes you go out to score, and sometimes you go out to drink and do crazy stuff with your friends and don't want to be bothered by stranger. The fact that you're in a gay bar or not doesn't alway have to factor into that.
Ahh, I was seeing it as more of a "Not wanting to be hit on by gay people because they're gay, even though you're at a gay bar". As in, not caring if you get hit on by straight people (whether you are looking to score or not), but not wanting gay people to hit on you in a gay bar.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
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Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

wrightway

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #168 on: July 07, 2013, 10:31:27 am »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #169 on: July 07, 2013, 10:50:02 am »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.
It's pretty much shipping goggles with a bit of annoyance at the lack of well-written gay couples on television. Hopefully, we'll finally see one sooner or later on the S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, since seemingly the only person who knew how to make good gay couples on American TV was Joss Whedon.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline Meshakhad

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #170 on: July 07, 2013, 03:10:44 pm »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.
It's pretty much shipping goggles with a bit of annoyance at the lack of well-written gay couples on television. Hopefully, we'll finally see one sooner or later on the S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, since seemingly the only person who knew how to make good gay couples on American TV was Joss Whedon.

Actually, Stargate Universe did a good job. In fact, the show almost had the message that where straight people are sex maniacs who can't keep it in their pants, gays never sleep around. Given that the straight characters had a sizable amount of relationship drama, while the one gay couple was steadfast.

Incidentally, the actress who played one of the gay characters on Stargate Universe, Ming-Na, is one of the regulars for Agents of SHIELD.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #171 on: July 07, 2013, 03:18:04 pm »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.
It's pretty much shipping goggles with a bit of annoyance at the lack of well-written gay couples on television. Hopefully, we'll finally see one sooner or later on the S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, since seemingly the only person who knew how to make good gay couples on American TV was Joss Whedon.

Actually, Stargate Universe did a good job. In fact, the show almost had the message that where straight people are sex maniacs who can't keep it in their pants, gays never sleep around. Given that the straight characters had a sizable amount of relationship drama, while the one gay couple was steadfast.

Incidentally, the actress who played one of the gay characters on Stargate Universe, Ming-Na, is one of the regulars for Agents of SHIELD.
Cue crossover fanfiction in 3... 2... 1...
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline Meshakhad

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #172 on: July 07, 2013, 03:27:24 pm »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.
It's pretty much shipping goggles with a bit of annoyance at the lack of well-written gay couples on television. Hopefully, we'll finally see one sooner or later on the S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, since seemingly the only person who knew how to make good gay couples on American TV was Joss Whedon.

Actually, Stargate Universe did a good job. In fact, the show almost had the message that where straight people are sex maniacs who can't keep it in their pants, gays never sleep around. Given that the straight characters had a sizable amount of relationship drama, while the one gay couple was steadfast.

Incidentally, the actress who played one of the gay characters on Stargate Universe, Ming-Na, is one of the regulars for Agents of SHIELD.
Cue crossover fanfiction in 3... 2... 1...
Well, there's the minor issue of getting her character back to Earth. She's sorta stranded on the other side of the universe...
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Offline Askold

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #173 on: July 07, 2013, 04:20:53 pm »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.
It's pretty much shipping goggles with a bit of annoyance at the lack of well-written gay couples on television. Hopefully, we'll finally see one sooner or later on the S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, since seemingly the only person who knew how to make good gay couples on American TV was Joss Whedon.

Actually, Stargate Universe did a good job. In fact, the show almost had the message that where straight people are sex maniacs who can't keep it in their pants, gays never sleep around. Given that the straight characters had a sizable amount of relationship drama, while the one gay couple was steadfast.

Incidentally, the actress who played one of the gay characters on Stargate Universe, Ming-Na, is one of the regulars for Agents of SHIELD.
Cue crossover fanfiction in 3... 2... 1...
Well, there's the minor issue of getting her character back to Earth. She's sorta stranded on the other side of the universe...

Dude. Fan-fiction has ultra-MarySue characters that usually have incredibly ridiculous and cheesy backgrounds. Bringing someone from one side of the universe to the other in a scifi setting which has instantaneous travel between portals that are several light years from another isn't an issue. It's the basis of the series.
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wrightway

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #174 on: July 07, 2013, 04:22:18 pm »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.
It's pretty much shipping goggles with a bit of annoyance at the lack of well-written gay couples on television. Hopefully, we'll finally see one sooner or later on the S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, since seemingly the only person who knew how to make good gay couples on American TV was Joss Whedon.

Here's hoping Whedon pulls it off again.

And, I will admit, the Community fandom has a point. They gave both characters girlfriends in the fourth season after new show runners took over. Prior to that it was heavily implied everyone in universe believed them a couple. The "I love you" "I know" zombie episode from season two. Or the hand holding "We have something to tell everyone" episode in season three (it turned out they had become roommates).

I still am trying to figure out how it's erasing queer identities.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #175 on: July 07, 2013, 05:49:32 pm »
A head exploding tag on tumblr is "queer baiting." It's used a mind numbing amount in the Community fandom, usually with the trobed tag. Queer baiting is when a show implies two characters of the same sex are romantically attracted, but then gives them heteronormative romances and storylines. I've seen shippers say that if Troy and Abed don't hook up then the show is erasing queer identities. I want to ask them how they even begin to reach this conclusion.
It's pretty much shipping goggles with a bit of annoyance at the lack of well-written gay couples on television. Hopefully, we'll finally see one sooner or later on the S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, since seemingly the only person who knew how to make good gay couples on American TV was Joss Whedon.

Here's hoping Whedon pulls it off again.

And, I will admit, the Community fandom has a point. They gave both characters girlfriends in the fourth season after new show runners took over. Prior to that it was heavily implied everyone in universe believed them a couple. The "I love you" "I know" zombie episode from season two. Or the hand holding "We have something to tell everyone" episode in season three (it turned out they had become roommates).

I still am trying to figure out how it's erasing queer identities.
That's actually pretty simple. These characters identify as gay. Then they're changed into straight.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #176 on: July 07, 2013, 05:59:52 pm »
But did the characters actually identify as gay? There's a difference between a show mocking how two straight people act like a gay couple and a show actually turning two legitimately gay characters straight.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #177 on: July 07, 2013, 06:19:06 pm »
But did the characters actually identify as gay? There's a difference between a show mocking how two straight people act like a gay couple and a show actually turning two legitimately gay characters straight.
It's heavily implied, like any other relationship that hasn't been outright stated but everyone can see. They did the typical buildup tease, but never delivered, which is wrong.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #178 on: July 07, 2013, 07:15:12 pm »
But did the characters actually identify as gay? There's a difference between a show mocking how two straight people act like a gay couple and a show actually turning two legitimately gay characters straight.
It's heavily implied, like any other relationship that hasn't been outright stated but everyone can see. They did the typical buildup tease, but never delivered, which is wrong.

I think it was always meant to just be a running gag.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #179 on: July 07, 2013, 08:03:52 pm »
Some running gags are meant to be tripped.
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