Author Topic: Why the traditional 1980s Star Wars Canon is superior to the SJW Disney one  (Read 12351 times)

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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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That men should be treated like adults, whether by men or women? That's not misandry, it's the opposite. Poe was treated like a person who made a bad decision, not some helpless oaf and the mercy of his instincts and other people called him to account for it.

Misandry would be to let it go and say boys will be boys, the silly little runts can't help themselves!

Offline Jacob Harrison

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That men should be treated like adults, whether by men or women? That's not misandry, it's the opposite. Poe was treated like a person who made a bad decision, not some helpless oaf and the mercy of his instincts and other people called him to account for it.

Misandry would be to let it go and say boys will be boys, the silly little runts can't help themselves!

That is not the full message. The message that they were trying to portray is that men are irresponsible instinctive, destructive individuals, and that women are more responsible and calculated and you need them to reprimand the men.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Not the case, Poe was always more of an adult than either Luke or Han in the original series. As has been noted, Solo is a petty criminal in debt to dangerous people and Luke's world was the fenceline in his foster parents farm. Poe's a lifelong Rebel and the former head of Rapier squadron, he knows how things are supposed to work in the Rebel Alliance almost as well as Princess Leia. Despite his training and familiarity with Rebel Alliance convention he disobeys a direct order to undertake a risky attack on a First Order warship in violation of direct orders. As a result he's merely demoted instead of spaced or blasted, taking into account his prior record of service.

Poe, in stark contrast to both Luke and Han in the original series is presented as a smart, capable, principled warrior who made a dumb decision and got people killed. The message couldn't be more conservative. In wartime respect the chain of command or there will be consequences.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 09:49:36 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Not the case, Poe was always more of an adult than either Luke or Han in the original series. As has been noted, Solo is a petty criminal in debt to dangerous people and Luke's world was the fenceline in his foster parents farm. He's a lifelong Rebel and the former head of Rapier squadron, he knows how things are supposed to work in the Rebel Alliance almost as well as Princess Leia. Despite his training and familiarity with Rebel Alliance convention he disobeys a direct order to undertake a risky attack on a First Order warship. As a result he's merely demoted instead of spaced or blasted, taking into account his prior record of service.

Poe, in stark contrast to both Luke and Han in the original series is presented as a smart, capable, principled warrior who made a dumb decision and got people killed. The message couldn't be more conservative. In wartime respect the chain of command or there will be consequences.

Right so it is more misandrist because it makes it seem like trained principled warrior men are disobedient and reckless

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Not the case, Poe was always more of an adult than either Luke or Han in the original series. As has been noted, Solo is a petty criminal in debt to dangerous people and Luke's world was the fenceline in his foster parents farm. He's a lifelong Rebel and the former head of Rapier squadron, he knows how things are supposed to work in the Rebel Alliance almost as well as Princess Leia. Despite his training and familiarity with Rebel Alliance convention he disobeys a direct order to undertake a risky attack on a First Order warship. As a result he's merely demoted instead of spaced or blasted, taking into account his prior record of service.

Poe, in stark contrast to both Luke and Han in the original series is presented as a smart, capable, principled warrior who made a dumb decision and got people killed. The message couldn't be more conservative. In wartime respect the chain of command or there will be consequences.

Right so it is more misandrist because it makes it seem like trained principled warrior men are disobedient and reckless
Nope, one man makes a dumb call and is called dumb for it. Ok, it was done by women. Frankly that shouldn't bug him as much as the women and men he got killed.

There's not a pattern here Jacob, well there is, but not in the way you think there is. In the SW universe there are a lot of heroes snubbing their superiors but saving the galaxy anyway so it was worth the risk. In Jedi Luke snubs Yoda and Obi Wan and nearly gets himself killed but it's worth it in the long run. In Rouge One Jyn Erso does get herself killed disobeying her superiors but it's worth it in the long run. Poe snubs his superiors and his risk doesn't pay off-it backfires spectacularly, get's his comrades killed but survives to live with the guilt. Very clever trope subversion.

It's why it's called a "risk," it's risky.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 02:13:54 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline dpareja

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You realize that if you follow the "traditional" canon you eventually get to a point where Leia is physically stronger (as in, actually physically stronger, not "use the Force to enhance my strength" stronger) than Han, right?
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Not the case, Poe was always more of an adult than either Luke or Han in the original series. As has been noted, Solo is a petty criminal in debt to dangerous people and Luke's world was the fenceline in his foster parents farm. He's a lifelong Rebel and the former head of Rapier squadron, he knows how things are supposed to work in the Rebel Alliance almost as well as Princess Leia. Despite his training and familiarity with Rebel Alliance convention he disobeys a direct order to undertake a risky attack on a First Order warship. As a result he's merely demoted instead of spaced or blasted, taking into account his prior record of service.

Poe, in stark contrast to both Luke and Han in the original series is presented as a smart, capable, principled warrior who made a dumb decision and got people killed. The message couldn't be more conservative. In wartime respect the chain of command or there will be consequences.

Right so it is more misandrist because it makes it seem like trained principled warrior men are disobedient and reckless
Nope, one man makes a dumb call and is called dumb for it. Ok, it was done by women. Frankly that shouldn't bug him as much as the women and men he got killed.

There's not a pattern here Jacob, well there is, but not in the way you think there is. In the SW universe there are a lot of heroes snubbing their superiors but saving the galaxy anyway so it was worth the risk. In Jedi Luke snubs Yoda and Obi Wan and nearly gets himself killed but it's worth it in the long run. In Rouge One Jyn Erso does get herself killed disobeying her superiors but it's worth it in the long run. Poe snubs his superiors and his risk doesn't pay off-it backfires spectacularly, get's his comrades killed but survives to live with the guilt. Very clever trope subversion.

It's why it's called a "risk," it's risky.

As I said before, Disney intentionally made Admiral Holdo be in command to spread the message that you specifically need women to reprimand men who act reckless. They also made Rey a Mary Sue character who is extremely powerful in the force despite not having training like Luke did. It spreads the message that women are more naturally gifted and don’t need to grow as a character.

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You know, if you really hate Star Wars this badly, you could always, oh I don't know, watch something else, perhaps? None of it is actually real, it's just entertainment. If it offends you this much, there is zero reason for you to pay the slightest bit of attention to it. Go find something that doesn't feature a fictional world that differs from your ideals, and enjoy that instead. I suspect you'll be a lot happier as a result.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Not the case, Poe was always more of an adult than either Luke or Han in the original series. As has been noted, Solo is a petty criminal in debt to dangerous people and Luke's world was the fenceline in his foster parents farm. He's a lifelong Rebel and the former head of Rapier squadron, he knows how things are supposed to work in the Rebel Alliance almost as well as Princess Leia. Despite his training and familiarity with Rebel Alliance convention he disobeys a direct order to undertake a risky attack on a First Order warship. As a result he's merely demoted instead of spaced or blasted, taking into account his prior record of service.

Poe, in stark contrast to both Luke and Han in the original series is presented as a smart, capable, principled warrior who made a dumb decision and got people killed. The message couldn't be more conservative. In wartime respect the chain of command or there will be consequences.

Right so it is more misandrist because it makes it seem like trained principled warrior men are disobedient and reckless
Nope, one man makes a dumb call and is called dumb for it. Ok, it was done by women. Frankly that shouldn't bug him as much as the women and men he got killed.

There's not a pattern here Jacob, well there is, but not in the way you think there is. In the SW universe there are a lot of heroes snubbing their superiors but saving the galaxy anyway so it was worth the risk. In Jedi Luke snubs Yoda and Obi Wan and nearly gets himself killed but it's worth it in the long run. In Rouge One Jyn Erso does get herself killed disobeying her superiors but it's worth it in the long run. Poe snubs his superiors and his risk doesn't pay off-it backfires spectacularly, get's his comrades killed but survives to live with the guilt. Very clever trope subversion.

It's why it's called a "risk," it's risky.

As I said before, Disney intentionally made Admiral Holdo be in command to spread the message that you specifically need women to reprimand men who act reckless. They also made Rey a Mary Sue character who is extremely powerful in the force despite not having training like Luke did. It spreads the message that women are more naturally gifted and don’t need to grow as a character.
I certainly think the directors of the new SW films had an agenda in their script and casting choices but I don't think it was "misandry," I think it was this:



So yeah, what Art said!

Offline Skybison

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Offline Askold

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That reminds me, someone joked that Kylo Ren disappoints three separate father figures in a row and each time reacts by trying to kill them (depending on how you count he either succeeds twice or on all three occasions.)
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Offline ironbite

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Ok so Han and Luke who's the third?

Offline Lana Reverse

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Ok so Han and Luke who's the third?

Pretty sure it's Snoke.
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Offline Askold

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Yeah, it is arguable whether Kylo should get the credit for Luke but he does die right after their fight presumably due to the exhaustion from using his powers like that.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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I thought the point of Luke's trick was to show that Obi Wan's disappearance was also a kind of force, suicide hologram which raises a lot of weird questions, where was Obi Wan when he faced off Vader if he pulled the same stunt and why didn't he disappear with his clothes? How do you put clothes on a hologram anyway? Does Star Wars have a slave economy similar to the Old South or the Roman Empire? Is it human-supremacist? Where the heck did these humans come from?

Who would win in a battle between a Star Destroyer and the Enterprise?