What the Bible says about masturbation.

[dpareja]

1. That is a highly unfortunate incidental side effect, I concede. However, again, the woman's bodily autonomy is, once she no longer consents to be pregnant, being forcibly violated. In that conflict of rights, I must side with the person whom I know is alive, rather than the person who may die before coming to term (due to miscarriage or stillbirth).

2. But, as some have argued, why make an exception for rape? It's not the unborn child's fault that it exists because of rape.

3. In Hebrew tradition, from which the Mosaic law is derived, the fetus was considered water for the first forty days, after which it was considered part of the woman's body, generally a thigh. References, then, to the "thigh" are in fact references to the fetus.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-fetus-in-jewish-law/

An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth). In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.” These facts form the basis for the Jewish legal view on abortion.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body."

3 (again. because you can't count, apparently). There will be either way, but the execution creates a flashpoint where life imprisonment does not.

4. So what are you saying here? That we should be able to harvest organs from dead people?

5. But the fetus is wholly dependent on the woman's body for its survival. It is not alive separate from that, and forcing the woman to sustain it is slavery.

6. Teen sex isn't itself the issue. People gonna fuck whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not. The question is whether they do so safely, and quite clearly, in the southern states like Mississippi and Texas, they aren't. As for abortion rates, we have no criminal restrictions on abortion in Canada (for various reasons), and our abortion rate is only slightly higher than in the US. Clearly there are other factors than how restricted abortion is.

https://www.guttmacher.org/report/abortion-worldwide-2017
http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/backrounders/statistics-abortion-in-canada.pdf

Note also that the more restrictive the legal regime, the greater the proportion of unsafe abortions to safe abortions--some women will seek abortions no matter what, and the more you restrict abortion, the more those women's lives are in danger.

7. I have no problem with a free market for health care. Competition among medical professionals over quality of service is healthy. Where the problem comes in is the for-profit health insurance companies, which make money by denying as much coverage and as many claims as possible. They are a useless middleman that drives up costs with no benefit. Get rid of (or at least restrict) those, by implementing a single-payer system, and you will see costs drop significantly. (Alternate choices include a public option, forcing those companies to compete against an insurer with no profit motive, or tight regulations on non-profit health insurance companies, such as in Germany.) The ACA was a Republican plan, first proposed by Richard Nixon, then touted by the Heritage Foundation, pushed by Newt Gingrich and Chuck Grassley as an alternative to the plan proposed by the Clinton administration, and finally implemented in Massachusetts under Mitt Romney, and like most Republican "ideas" (I use the term loosely), it sucked balls--but it was an improvement, however slight, over the previous system, which was utterly atrocious. (If you want to complain about premiums increasing, go look at where they were in 2008.)

Hospitals in the US often have billing departments with more staff than they have medical staff. Toronto General Hospital's billing department has three people--one of whom is only there to deal with US insurers. That drives up health care costs without any improvement in the quality of care. If you want to cut costs, get rid of the for-profit health insurance companies.

EDIT: And Tol's right. If you cared about babies you'd have said you support the postnatal stuff I mentioned (like social supports and parental leave). That you don't reveals your true motive--controlling women, which is one of the main foundations of your horrific, atrocious, terrifying, evil religion.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

6. Teen sex isn't itself the issue. People gonna fuck whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not.

I highly suspect that for Jacob this is the central issue. There are two options here, Jacob is a troll trying to pwn us who's been outplayed because, FFS he oinked for five minutes on Youtube or Jacob is a sincere little theocrat who has built his beliefs as a buffer around his very real insecurities. Either way, we're dealing with a bitter, bitter little man.

He's presented himself here as highly neurotic, deeply suspicious and ashamed of his own sexuality and vengeful towards the world for not accommodating people like him. Not so different from all the other run of the mill Incels.

Teenagers having sex, premarital sex, gay sex or even ordinary people masturbating is an affront to Jacob because it's people having fun with something he finds baffling and terrifying. Sex. It's not the babbies, it's the bitterness. Simple.

[niam2023]

Someone needs to upload the oink video again...but in dubstep.

[Jacob Harrison]

1. That conflict of rights involves someone’s life on the line. In that case, the right to life is more important than bodily autonomy.

2. Well rape might affect the physical health of the mother and the baby so it can be included in the life of the mother exception.

3. The Talmud was written after the Bible and after Christ and is the book of the false religion of Judaism. Christianity is much more accurate to biblical tradition than Judaism.

4. I am not saying that. I am saying that people have rights to refuse organ harvesting upon death because it does not cause a termination of life.

5. Already talked about this in section 1 of this comment

6. Teen sex is the issue, because sex itself is more dangerous than pregnancy because of STDs.

7. Well less women will have unsafe illegal abortions if society teaches that abortion is murder.

8. Well the Republicans are planning Trumpcare as an improvement over Obamacare. https://resources.ehealthinsurance.com/uncategorized/trumpcare-vs-obamacare

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Every single sentence you spouted is bullshit. STD's can be massively reduced by reliable contraceptive's which the RCC, who you regard as pretenders anyway, oppose as much as they loathe teen sex unless it's a padre raping one of them, denying her an abortion and the church hierarchy shuffling the old creep off to a new parish to rape more teens, or younger than teens.

And Trumpcare is less likely than his stupid wall.

Wonder if padre uses protection?

[Jacob Harrison]

The best way to prevent STD’s is abstinence.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

The best way to prevent STD’s is abstinence.

Which doesn't work and has never worked.

Except for the truly unfuckable, like you!

[ironbite]

How's trying to get in your second cousin's jeans going for ya?

[dpareja]

1. Says you. There are certain fundamental rights enjoyed by the mother that are given equal importance in law (if the law recognizes fetal personhood at all). In this case, we are dealing with the rights of an actual, living, biologically independent person versus the rights of a biologically-dependent being who could still end up miscarried or stillborn anyway. The mother can make her own decisions about her own body--including who or what it will support biologically--without your or my or anyone else's input, you meddling fuck. She is not a biological slave to anyone or anything, for any reason.

2. Rape, once it's happened, is over, at least so far as the acute physical violation is concerned. There are devastating mental effects, to be sure, but (though I admit some ignorance on this matter) I do not know what there is in terms of lingering physical effects (beyond the possibilities of pregnancy and STIs). But in all this the fetus is faultless nonetheless, and if you're going to argue that the mental effects justify it, then fine, I'll say that the mental effects of wanting an abortion but being denied it because of self-righteous, moralizing fucktards like you are just as bad (the woman has gone from consenting to nonconsenting--if she was ever the former), and being forced to seek an unsafe method also risks devastating physical effects.

3. The Talmud might have been written down only after the events written about in the New Testament were purported to have taken place, but the traditions on which it was based stretch back for millennia prior to that, and it is those traditions which are reflected in the Mosaic law. References to "thighs" for pregnant women in the Old Testament are references to the fetus and such are just another body part.

4. Sure it can. If a person absolutely needs a liver right now, and the only readily available matching donor is a recently-dead person, but that latter did not consent to be an organ donor, I guess it really, really, really, really sucks to be the person who needs a liver transplant.

6. And if they're taught how to use things like condoms (which they're not in abstinence-only programs--though some teachers are at least willing to show their students how to put on a sock) that will reduce STI transmission rates drastically. If you want to reduce STI rates, teach comprehensive sex education. Telling libidinous teenagers, "Sex is bad, m'kay? Don't have sex, m'kay?" will not dissuade many of them from fucking. Comprehensive sex education works. Abstinence-only sex education might be one of the few things that fails even harder than you do at being a half-decent human being.

7. And women will still seek abortions for any number of reasons anyway. If you want to cut down on those, implement all the policies I mentioned. Just restricting or banning abortion, while it may result in a dip in abortion rates, also results in a substantial shift toward those abortions that are done anyway being done by unsafe methods, which poses a gigantic risk to the health of the mother. Other than the idea of single-payer health insurance and a bit about sex education, you haven't said diddly-squat about what I proposed.

8. You're talking about the AHCA? That died nearly a year ago and it ain't coming back. Republicans don't give two flying fucks about anything other than making sure rich people don't have to pay taxes and corporations can pollute as much as they want (oh, which also harms mothers and fetuses--especially the latter, quite dramatically), except when they need to rile up their retarded, ignorant base like you. The GOP tries to have its cake and eat it too (restrict abortion when they need to appease the evangelicals and Catholics who can't stand the thought of women having a smidgen of control over their own lives and meanwhile cut social supports because that costs money that could be going to rich people in tax cuts) and that's why they fail and always will and deserve absolutely no influence in any government anywhere whatsoever.

As for abstinence, I agree--abstaining from sexual contact with others, or masturbating, is the most reliable method of preventing pregnancy and the transmission of STIs. However, we know that only teaching abstinence simply does not work, and so it behooves anyone who is intellectually honest and wants to reduce the rates of STI transmission or unintended or unwanted pregnancy rates (and hence abortion rates) must support comprehensive sex education and oppose any attempts by any person or group, such as the Roman Catholic Church, to restrict sex education to teaching only abstinence, since that method has always failed and always will.

In short, butt out of other people's lives and stop dictating decisions that are not yours to make. Your so-called "morality" is a relic of a barbarous time from an evil source that deserves absolutely no respect in the modern world. If you get pregnant, you can go and not get an abortion. Don't make that choice for anyone else--you have no right to do so.

And if you can't be intellectually honest, you have no ground to demand to be taken seriously in any discussion on anything whatsoever.

EDIT: Progressives see systemic inequities, recognize that that's shitty for the people with the short end of the stick, and work to ameliorate said inequities.

Conservatives see systemic inequities, see that those inequities favour them, and fight all attempts to remedy the problem, often by claiming that the evident inequities don't actually exist.

Fucking dishonest hacks.

[Jacob Harrison]

1. Says you. There are certain fundamental rights enjoyed by the mother that are given equal importance in law (if the law recognizes fetal personhood at all). In this case, we are dealing with the rights of an actual, living, biologically independent person versus the rights of a biologically-dependent being who could still end up miscarried or stillborn anyway. The mother can make her own decisions about her own body--including who or what it will support biologically--without your or my or anyone else's input, you meddling fuck. She is not a biological slave to anyone or anything, for any reason.

2. Rape, once it's happened, is over, at least so far as the acute physical violation is concerned. There are devastating mental effects, to be sure, but (though I admit some ignorance on this matter) I do not know what there is in terms of lingering physical effects (beyond the possibilities of pregnancy and STIs). But in all this the fetus is faultless nonetheless, and if you're going to argue that the mental effects justify it, then fine, I'll say that the mental effects of wanting an abortion but being denied it because of self-righteous, moralizing fucktards like you are just as bad (the woman has gone from consenting to nonconsenting--if she was ever the former), and being forced to seek an unsafe method also risks devastating physical effects.

3. The Talmud might have been written down only after the events written about in the New Testament were purported to have taken place, but the traditions on which it was based stretch back for millennia prior to that, and it is those traditions which are reflected in the Mosaic law. References to "thighs" for pregnant women in the Old Testament are references to the fetus and such are just another body part.

4. Sure it can. If a person absolutely needs a liver right now, and the only readily available matching donor is a recently-dead person, but that latter did not consent to be an organ donor, I guess it really, really, really, really sucks to be the person who needs a liver transplant.

6. And if they're taught how to use things like condoms (which they're not in abstinence-only programs--though some teachers are at least willing to show their students how to put on a sock) that will reduce STI transmission rates drastically. If you want to reduce STI rates, teach comprehensive sex education. Telling libidinous teenagers, "Sex is bad, m'kay? Don't have sex, m'kay?" will not dissuade many of them from fucking. Comprehensive sex education works. Abstinence-only sex education might be one of the few things that fails even harder than you do at being a half-decent human being.

7. And women will still seek abortions for any number of reasons anyway. If you want to cut down on those, implement all the policies I mentioned. Just restricting or banning abortion, while it may result in a dip in abortion rates, also results in a substantial shift toward those abortions that are done anyway being done by unsafe methods, which poses a gigantic risk to the health of the mother. Other than the idea of single-payer health insurance and a bit about sex education, you haven't said diddly-squat about what I proposed.

8. You're talking about the AHCA? That died nearly a year ago and it ain't coming back. Republicans don't give two flying fucks about anything other than making sure rich people don't have to pay taxes and corporations can pollute as much as they want (oh, which also harms mothers and fetuses--especially the latter, quite dramatically), except when they need to rile up their retarded, ignorant base like you. The GOP tries to have its cake and eat it too (restrict abortion when they need to appease the evangelicals and Catholics who can't stand the thought of women having a smidgen of control over their own lives and meanwhile cut social supports because that costs money that could be going to rich people in tax cuts) and that's why they fail and always will and deserve absolutely no influence in any government anywhere whatsoever.

As for abstinence, I agree--abstaining from sexual contact with others, or masturbating, is the most reliable method of preventing pregnancy and the transmission of STIs. However, we know that only teaching abstinence simply does not work, and so it behooves anyone who is intellectually honest and wants to reduce the rates of STI transmission or unintended or unwanted pregnancy rates (and hence abortion rates) must support comprehensive sex education and oppose any attempts by any person or group, such as the Roman Catholic Church, to restrict sex education to teaching only abstinence, since that method has always failed and always will.

In short, butt out of other people's lives and stop dictating decisions that are not yours to make. Your so-called "morality" is a relic of a barbarous time from an evil source that deserves absolutely no respect in the modern world. If you get pregnant, you can go and not get an abortion. Don't make that choice for anyone else--you have no right to do so.

And if you can't be intellectually honest, you have no ground to demand to be taken seriously in any discussion on anything whatsoever.

EDIT: Progressives see systemic inequities, recognize that that's shitty for the people with the short end of the stick, and work to ameliorate said inequities.

Conservatives see systemic inequities, see that those inequities favour them, and fight all attempts to remedy the problem, often by claiming that the evident inequities don't actually exist.

Fucking dishonest hacks.

1. Newborn babies are biologically dependent on their mothers for breastfeeding and killing them is murder.

2. The risk of STD’s and how the mother’s mental health will affect her ability to keep the child healthy while pregnant are factors that are grounds for abortion.

3. Jewish traditions changed a lot after the Babylonian exile and getting influence from Hellenistic culture.

4. Usually there is a liver available.

5. Condom’s will encourage them to more sex while not using them will make them aware that they can become pregnant or infected.

6. But it overall reduces the number of deaths, because the number of babies who die and the mother’s who die and go to Hell, in illegal abortion is less than the amount of babies that currently die under legal abortion.

7. The AHCA wasn’t passed because of the fucking RINOS(Republican’s in name only) like John McCain, but when they get voted out and replaced by real Republican’s than it will be passed, and the article explains the differences and benefits of those ensured under Trumpcare.

[dpareja]

1. While breastfeeding is generally the preferred method of feeding a newborn, it is not always indicated. For instance, some women simply cannot express milk, and anyway newborn children can survive while being bottle-fed rather than breastfed. Saying that a newborn child is biologically dependent on its mother the way a human fetus is is dishonest and disingenuous. If the mother does not wish to breastfeed her child, she does not have to and there are other options available. If we could extract and cryogenically freeze fetuses, or grow them in artificial wombs, that would change the facts and make pregnancy more similar to breastfeeding.

2. OK, so let's say a ciswoman married to a cisman gets pregnant, from consensual sex, and is initially excited to be pregnant. Then through no fault of her own, after, say, three or four months of pregnancy, her husband dies suddenly and she is suddenly left without sufficient resources to deliver and care for the child. The thought of giving birth and raising the child, while previously a source of excitement and joy for her, has suddenly become an unbearable stress factor. Her mental health is now at serious risk, and what's worse unfeeling fucks like you tell her she can't get an abortion.

3. That's not the only place where "thigh" does not mean a literal thigh. When Jacob wrestled God and ended up with a crippled thigh... that was a crotch shot.

4. Usually. Nice. And if there isn't?

5. I know you don't get this, but:

PEOPLE

GONNA

FUCK

Teenagers have hormones racing through their bodies, those bodies are changing from child to adult, and they don't often have the emotional maturity to think through all the consequences of their actions. Proper condom use is the most effective way of mitigating the consequences of having sex. They are going to have sex whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not. If you oppose teaching them how to do so safely, you are partly responsible for the consequences they suffer.

6. Does it? Look at the two studies I linked earlier. The abortion rate in Canada is only slightly higher than in the US. (In fact, the rate in Canada takes into account ages 15-44, while the rate for the US is ages 15-49, so probably they're even closer than they appear.) But we also see that the fewer restrictions placed on abortion, the safer the procedures that are performed are. US law is more restrictive than Canadian law on abortion, and hence a greater percentage of the abortions performed in the US are done under unsafe conditions, putting the mother's life in greater jeopardy. Further to that, attempts to restrict abortion too much make it inaccessible to all too many women, even those who really do have a legitimate medical reason for one, such as those women with ectopic pregnancies.

7. The AHCA was also massively unpopular and attempts to reintroduce it will be politically disastrous for Republicans. The mood of the US is populist left, and the only reason Republicans are in charge right now is because the Democratic Party establishment is beyond incompetent (and hopelessly corrupt) and can't read polls. Once that's remedied and the Overton Window has been moved to align with the attitudes of regular Americans, the Republicans, at least in their current science-denying, education-hating, Christian-theocratic, misogynistic, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic, anti-American incarnation, will be out of power for, quite possibly, decades.

And direct question (see the Skyfire clause), Jacob: Do you support these policies:

Social supports for women and families with young children, particularly single mothers and low-income families.
Extensive maternity and paternity leave so that young children can properly bond with their parents.

EDIT: Republican politicians (or, more precisely, the donors who control them) care about one thing and one thing only: cutting taxes for rich people and corporations. All the other crap they spew is red meat to get useful idiots like you to vote for them and otherwise support them against your own economic self-interest.

EDIT #2: Also, estimates peg the number of people in the US who die every year from being unable to access basic health care (generally due to unaffordability) at anywhere between 38,000 to 45,000. In countries with better health care systems, this number of far lower, close to zero. By opposing single-payer (or similar) you are partly responsible for at least (let's lowball it) 35,000 deaths per year. You no longer get to call yourself pro-life, you death-loving fuck.

[Jacob Harrison]

1. Well it is said that breastfeeding is better than bottled milk for brain development. And newborn babies are dependent on their mother’s for survival despite not being inside the mother’s body.

2. Insurance and other family members can help pay for the birth and if she is really lacking resources, the child can be given up for adopted. And grief over death is different from mental trauma from rape.

3. The NIV is the only bible that translates thigh as miscarriage.

4. It could be made Law that while organ donation is optional for the most part, there has to be a certain minimum number of donors per year.

5. Yes teens will always fuck, but you can reduce the number of those that do by teaching abstinence and for those that do, the pregnancy will make the females realize, “Oh I shouldn’t fuck.”

6. Abortion is legal in the US under Roe vs Wade so when that gets repealed, it will go way down.

7. There is a populist right mood in the United States, since the economy is going well, and the unemployment rate is low. You are confusing the corrupt Establishment Republicans which Trump fought against during the primaries, with the right wing populist Republicans that support Trump’s agenda.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Yeah, and those tariffs are hitting Trump country. Those shitheads may hate the brown, the poor, the educated and the different but they like to eat. Stabbing your base in the hip pocket might not inspire you to vote for the other guy but it can inspire your base not to vote.

[Jacob Harrison]

Yeah, and those tariffs are hitting Trump country. Those shitheads may hate the brown, the poor, the educated and the different but they like to eat. Stabbing your base in the hip pocket might not inspire you to vote for the other guy but it can inspire your base not to vote.

First of all, Trump’s base involves blue collar workers many of whom are considered poor, and there are also Black Trump supporters because Trump is stopping illegal immigrants from taking their jobs showing that it is Trump, not the Democrats that are in the best interests for blacks. Those in Trump country know that the long term benefits of the tariffs outweigh the temporary consequences because of keeping jobs and industries in America which is a benefit to the economy and the workers.

[ironbite]

God you're adorable.

Ironbite-just wanna head on up to Cape Cod and bang your second cousin myself.