Author Topic: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA  (Read 20705 times)

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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2014, 12:17:06 am »
When you're part of an organization, you agree to abide by certain regulations, same as any employer.  You can't show up to your job drunk or stoned, you have to smoke X feet away from any entrance, things like that.

To have a bylaw that states 'you cannot make racist/sexist/bigoted statements and not expect to face repercussions as a member of this organization' and then you violate that bylaw? yeah, they're well within their rights to bring down the hammer.  You fucked up, you pay the price.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2014, 12:35:02 am »
Really?  You wanna put your money where your mouth is?

Ironbite-cause I'm seeing a bunch of people suffering for saying stupid shit.

I could, for instance, throw you in an icy dungeon thousands of miles away from civilisation, deny you food and medical help, force you to produce good for export and then shoot you in the back of the head without warning for suggesting I was a Stalin analogy and you would still argue that everyone is "free to say and think whatever you want but you're not free from the consequences of those actions". Vicious Stalinist dictatorships are just consequences - you're still free!

Moron.

People agree to all sorts of things and we don't always assume they are morally bound by them. As an obviously-not-comparable example, an employee might agree to almost any terms if it's the only way to get a job, but we still expect the government to limit the sort of thing an employer can demand in a contract.

Xcactly. Man's speaking sense, listen to this guy.

Here's a nice analogy: it's the fifties, Don Sterling is African-American and suggests that segregation ain't all it's cracked up to be. Fire him? Loads of people really liked segregation, and I bet a bunch of them are your advertisers.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 12:39:00 am by Lt. Fred »
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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2014, 12:53:08 am »
Here's a nice analogy: it's the fifties, Don Sterling is African-American and suggests that segregation ain't all it's cracked up to be. Fire him? Loads of people really liked segregation, and I bet a bunch of them are your advertisers.

Sure, the analogy can work, but the problem is that he's also a major representative of that organization.  He speaks, and says what he did, that reflects not only on him, but the entire organization and every other team owner.  When you have major NBA stars and a large chunk of teams threatening to boycott playing if they don't actually punish Sterling, you have to weigh 'do we try just making a statement and not do much, and risk pissing off everyone else, or do we smack him down with an injunction and make him face the consequences, and possibly risk a legal fight?'
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 01:11:19 am »


Because once again, xkcd says a necessary thing that people need pounded into their head.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2014, 02:36:04 am »
Here's a nice analogy: it's the fifties, Don Sterling is African-American and suggests that segregation ain't all it's cracked up to be. Fire him? Loads of people really liked segregation, and I bet a bunch of them are your advertisers.

Sure, the analogy can work, but the problem is that he's also a major representative of that organization.  He speaks, and says what he did, that reflects not only on him, but the entire organization and every other team owner.  When you have major NBA stars and a large chunk of teams threatening to boycott playing if they don't actually punish Sterling, you have to weigh 'do we try just making a statement and not do much, and risk pissing off everyone else, or do we smack him down with an injunction and make him face the consequences, and possibly risk a legal fight?'

How is my analogy different in any way - aside from your disagreement with racism? There were real popular boycott movements against the hiring of Jews by American business in the distant past. Should business have been allowed to cave? Of course not.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline Askold

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2014, 05:06:32 am »
Here's a nice analogy: it's the fifties, Don Sterling is African-American and suggests that segregation ain't all it's cracked up to be. Fire him? Loads of people really liked segregation, and I bet a bunch of them are your advertisers.

Sure, the analogy can work, but the problem is that he's also a major representative of that organization.  He speaks, and says what he did, that reflects not only on him, but the entire organization and every other team owner.  When you have major NBA stars and a large chunk of teams threatening to boycott playing if they don't actually punish Sterling, you have to weigh 'do we try just making a statement and not do much, and risk pissing off everyone else, or do we smack him down with an injunction and make him face the consequences, and possibly risk a legal fight?'

How is my analogy different in any way - aside from your disagreement with racism? There were real popular boycott movements against the hiring of Jews by American business in the distant past. Should business have been allowed to cave? Of course not.

...Actually. In my opinion if a company had (as some probably did) taken a stance to support racism that would have been their right.

If the country had laws that made discrimination in hiring practises illegal then the company would and should get into trouble for breaking those laws BUT if it was just them complaining about not being allowed to discriminate against minorities then that would be the company's business. I would not even want laws against companies lobbying for racist laws anymore than I want laws against companies that are currently lobbying for lower wages and less worker benefits. (which is to say that I would want to make sure that companies don't have TOO MUCH influence over politics but some lobbying is inevitable and ok.)

As long as they do things according to the laws they can do what they want.

Not that I would buy anything from a corporation that was openly racist, but people do have the right to have the "wrong" ideas.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2014, 05:48:48 am »
Here's a nice analogy: it's the fifties, Don Sterling is African-American and suggests that segregation ain't all it's cracked up to be. Fire him? Loads of people really liked segregation, and I bet a bunch of them are your advertisers.

Sure, the analogy can work, but the problem is that he's also a major representative of that organization.  He speaks, and says what he did, that reflects not only on him, but the entire organization and every other team owner.  When you have major NBA stars and a large chunk of teams threatening to boycott playing if they don't actually punish Sterling, you have to weigh 'do we try just making a statement and not do much, and risk pissing off everyone else, or do we smack him down with an injunction and make him face the consequences, and possibly risk a legal fight?'

How is my analogy different in any way - aside from your disagreement with racism? There were real popular boycott movements against the hiring of Jews by American business in the distant past. Should business have been allowed to cave? Of course not.

...Actually. In my opinion if a company had (as some probably did) taken a stance to support racism that would have been their right.

If the country had laws that made discrimination in hiring practises illegal then the company would and should get into trouble for breaking those laws BUT if it was just them complaining about not being allowed to discriminate against minorities then that would be the company's business. I would not even want laws against companies lobbying for racist laws anymore than I want laws against companies that are currently lobbying for lower wages and less worker benefits. (which is to say that I would want to make sure that companies don't have TOO MUCH influence over politics but some lobbying is inevitable and ok.)

As long as they do things according to the laws they can do what they want.

Not that I would buy anything from a corporation that was openly racist, but people do have the right to have the "wrong" ideas.

Well, that's pretty empty legalism.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2014, 07:59:14 am »
Remember, children, free speech isn't free unless it has absolutely zero consequences!  Anarchy is your only true freedom, and totally not the dumbass high schooler of sociopolitical ideologies.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2014, 08:15:20 am »
Remember, children, free speech isn't free unless it has absolutely zero consequences!  Anarchy is your only true freedom, and totally not the dumbass high schooler of sociopolitical ideologies.

I don't believe in absolute freedom - the freedom to blow people up, for instance, is probably one to be honoured in the breach - but we should at least have a nonstupid concept of what it actually is. You're not free to do something if I can fire you for doing it. Sometimes, you shouldn't be. But you aren't.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2014, 08:19:31 am »
Inquiry: How is firing someone preventing them from engaging in free speech?  They're not stapling their mouths shut and cutting off their hands; they're perfectly capable of talking, writing, and if they know how, signing.  The loss of a job does not interfere with their ability to communicate, and thus, does not limit their free speech.  Besides, if your argument is "well, its not illegal to say these things," then...well, that's kinda sad, to be honest.

Oh, and please don't bring up LGBT issues.  Racism isn't an immutable trait.  Ya choose to be a racist scumbag, and you shouldn't be surprised when people treat you like the scumbag you truly are.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 08:21:44 am by RavynousHunter »
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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2014, 08:37:04 am »
Well, that's pretty empty legalism.
Just my opinion.

Remember, children, free speech isn't free unless it has absolutely zero consequences!  Anarchy is your only true freedom, and totally not the dumbass high schooler of sociopolitical ideologies.
Oh man, anarchy is a frustrating concept and I have no idea how people think it would work.

I read a manifesto by an anarchist a few days ago and after he finally finished complaining about all the other belief systems because "mah freedoms" the real highlight of his rant came... He had been preaching about how anarchy has no pesky "laws or rules" and people are free to do whatever they want but he started explaining what anarchy is by explaining what "anarchy is not" and making a long list about how anarchy isn't mob rule and how violence and theft and other such things ARE NOT ANARCHY.

"...Exscuse me mister teacher man, I thought you just said that we can do whatever we want and that there are no rules. I think you said that at least eight times. Now you're telling me that I am NOT allowed to beat you up and steal your lunch in a true anarchist society."

So if even anarchists can agree that there should be some limits to what people should do would it not make sense to make some "rules" or "laws" that people agree to follow and perhaps enforce those with some people who "police" the society and so that those rules are fair to everyone we could... Uh... Maybe "vote" for those rules and and and... Anyway, you get the point.



...
I still stick to my opinion. If person/company A has a horrible opinion he has the right to have it as long as he acts according to the laws. If company B does not want to make it look like they support the opinion of person X who has an opinion (horrible or not) and the company does not want to make it look like they support it they may take actions to distance themselves from person X. And with someone like Sterling who was pretty high up the ladder they do have to make drastic manouvers like the lifetime ban to prove that his opinions are not shared by others in the management. (Besides, cynically speaking simply the amount of money lost by the PR damage that he caused is substantial with the loss of sponsors and possibly fans as well.)
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2014, 11:26:38 am »
Really?  You wanna put your money where your mouth is?

Ironbite-cause I'm seeing a bunch of people suffering for saying stupid shit.

I could, for instance, throw you in an icy dungeon thousands of miles away from civilisation, deny you food and medical help, force you to produce good for export and then shoot you in the back of the head without warning for suggesting I was a Stalin analogy and you would still argue that everyone is "free to say and think whatever you want but you're not free from the consequences of those actions". Vicious Stalinist dictatorships are just consequences - you're still free!

Moron.

How in the world does that even make any form of sense or even answers my point on how a private corporation can in fact make a move to distance itself from a repungent individual like Donald Sterling?  OH wait, forgot I'm talking to Lt. Fred.

Ironbite-who makes about as much sense as lighthorseman ever did.

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2014, 12:09:38 pm »
[I could, for instance, throw you in an icy dungeon thousands of miles away from civilisation, deny you food and medical help, force you to produce good for export and then shoot you in the back of the head without warning for suggesting I was a Stalin analogy and you would still argue that everyone is "free to say and think whatever you want but you're not free from the consequences of those actions". Vicious Stalinist dictatorships are just consequences - you're still free!

Well save for the fact that your analogy involves numerous crimes  People boycotting a business, protesting against you, or the NBA forcing Sterling to sell his team under the league rules are not crimes.  Not to mention Sterling is going to make money if he is forced to sell his team.

The NBA is well within there rights in seeking to remove Sterling.  If he continues to won the Clippers the team is going to have major issues including boycotts, the inability to sign keep any even decent player or coach, and near zero advertising revenue. 
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2014, 12:25:13 pm »
Remember, children, free speech isn't free unless it has absolutely zero consequences!  Anarchy is your only true freedom, and totally not the dumbass high schooler of sociopolitical ideologies.

Which is why Fred needs to read the fucking xkcd comic I posted.

What Fred is espousing is easily the most single-minded, black and white view of a law I've ever seen.  He's essentially saying a business shouldn't be allowed to fire anyone for being rude to the customers, even if it hurts their profits, because otherwise that's "infringing on their free speech."

Fred's understanding of the Right to Free Speech is on the same level of a reactionary's understanding.  Perhaps he should go back and do so more studying on that, because clearly, he failed.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2014, 01:44:48 pm »
The NBA is a not for profit organization. Really? Yeah. It's a technicality that allows it, like the NFL, to not pay corporate income tax. They are somewhat like a private country club (members only social, golf and tennis club with a clubhouse, to you guys overseas).

The money they make on official logo merchandise and television broadcast rights and game ticket sales gets shared amongst the teams, the teams' owners, the coaching staffs, the stadium owners, etc. As a private non-profit entity, like a private club, too, they can have some serious rules of conduct that leave their members - who all signed massive, binding contracts with NBA - legally vulnerable to in-house fines and civil litigation should members balk at paying those fines or accepting those punishments and banishments. They cannot be divested of actual ownership of a team without a lot of procedures and must be monetarily compensated for a forced sale, regardless. Sterling needs to pick up his toys and go home. The other kids have kicked him outta the tree house club.
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