Author Topic: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA  (Read 20794 times)

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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #105 on: June 01, 2014, 10:20:22 pm »
Is it tolerance to tolerate intolerance?
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #106 on: June 01, 2014, 11:01:12 pm »
The answer I'm tempted to give is "Yes. It's right in the name."


Serious answer: "You can't tolerate intolerance" is a stock phrase used in multiple contexts with different meanings, some of which I think are justified and some I think are not. Sometimes it's used in response to whining about how "Christians are the only group you're allowed to persecute" in response to a story about legalising gay marriage, or equivalent. Sometimes it's used to justify any manner of action against someone who isn't deemed progressive enough.

My main objection is that "You can't tolerate intolerance" is stupidly phrased, because it combines two different meanings of the word "tolerance" and essentially says one of them is always good and the other is occasionally bad. "Tolerance is great, and therefore intolerance sucks!" and "when something is horrible, you cannot tolerate it!" are both applying valid meanings of the word "tolerance", but they are necessarily different meanings. It's not a good idea to use them in the same sentence without further clarification.

When I say we should tolerate intolerance, I mean, specifically: "Tolerance as in the idea of being able to coexist with people even when strongly dislike them for whatever reason is important. Some people will not appreciate the importance of that, and it's justified to dislike them. It's justified to argue against them, to criticise them, to mock them, to think they are stupid. But when the very idea of someone who is intolerant offends you so much that you think that anything is justified against them, you have failed the very principle you are defending".

And sure, the line where action goes from justified to unjustified is blurry and hard to determine (as pretty much every ethical question is). Phrases like "you can't tolerate intolerance" or "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences" don't help the situation, because they apply equally well to action on either side of that line.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #107 on: June 01, 2014, 11:02:26 pm »
Is it tolerance to tolerate intolerance?
Yes. Being able to tolerate people who disagree with you is a very big part of tolerance.

I oppose "thought crimes" on a very fundamental level. It leads to a very slippery slope if people can be punished for the opinions.

On the other hand, actually putting those opinions into actions and insulting the people you intolerate or discriminating against them is a different matter than simply having such opinions.
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #108 on: June 01, 2014, 11:57:12 pm »
That's not really an answer. Why is that a relevant difference?

There is a difference between thoughts and actions.  If we were somehow going to punish people for thoughts allow we would all be in trouble.  Most of us figure out that some the things that pass through our heads are best left there.

Indeed it would be. Does that negate that it would also be enlightened to tolerate them?

I don't agree that a more enlightened society should/would tolerate racists views, even in the name of free speech.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Sterling threatens to sue the NBA
« Reply #109 on: June 02, 2014, 11:31:45 am »
That's not really an answer. Why is that a relevant difference?

There is a difference between thoughts and actions.  If we were somehow going to punish people for thoughts allow we would all be in trouble.  Most of us figure out that some the things that pass through our heads are best left there.

Yes, that's a good reason not to punish thought. Still not giving a reason why you should punish private expression.

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I don't agree that a more enlightened society should/would tolerate racists views, even in the name of free speech.

I know. That's kinda of the reason we are having this discussion.

What's to stop a society that doesn't tolerate different views in principle from not tolerating your views in particular? Luck? That the prevailing views of society are never stupid? That you would never disagree with the majority?
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