Author Topic: The most important announcement on this thread.  (Read 25423 times)

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Offline Skybison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2018, 01:56:24 pm »
Hey Jacob just wondering, if hypothetically it turns out that the true heir to the throne is me, will you have to obey any order I give you?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2018, 02:06:59 pm »
No it's not.  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from that masses, not from some farcical religious ceremony.

In the Roman Empire, supreme executive power derived from the government not a "mandate from that masses," so as the Catholic Church was the state religion in the Western half of the Roman Empire, it was a remnant of that government making it have the powers of that government.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2018, 02:07:45 pm »
Hey Jacob just wondering, if hypothetically it turns out that the true heir to the throne is me, will you have to obey any order I give you?

Yes, I would. I would help you regain the your rightful throne.

Offline dpareja

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2018, 02:48:21 pm »
I hope that, if that should be the case, Sky's only order to Jakey-boy is to fuck off and let the world get on without these crazy schemes.
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Offline Askold

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2018, 03:13:20 pm »
If the Western bits of Roman empire truly were a separate empire then the vestiges of it had no power to give to anyone. The janitor of a corporation that closes down might be the last employee (because someone has to shut down the lights) but that doesn't mean that they are the new CEO who owns all the intellectual property etc.

The Catholic church only had whatever political power that was given to them by the state, the same as it is now in countries where it is the state church. IF the western Roman empire was a separate entity the authority ended when it collapsed. So even in your pseudohistory this doesn't really work the way you think it does.

Meanwhile in the real world, Catholic church, the way it exists now never held power in the Roman Empire. The Orthodox church has much stronger claim to that as they crowned the Emperors in Constantinople.
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #125 on: September 07, 2018, 03:57:52 pm »
If the Western bits of Roman empire truly were a separate empire then the vestiges of it had no power to give to anyone. The janitor of a corporation that closes down might be the last employee (because someone has to shut down the lights) but that doesn't mean that they are the new CEO who owns all the intellectual property etc.

The Catholic church only had whatever political power that was given to them by the state, the same as it is now in countries where it is the state church. IF the western Roman empire was a separate entity the authority ended when it collapsed. So even in your pseudohistory this doesn't really work the way you think it does.

Meanwhile in the real world, Catholic church, the way it exists now never held power in the Roman Empire. The Orthodox church has much stronger claim to that as they crowned the Emperors in Constantinople.

As I said, before the Western part of the Empire fell, the Emperors in Rome and Constantinople we’re equal in power so I don’t see how the Orthodox Church would have a stronger claim. The power the Catholic Church was given by the state, made it a powerful remnant of the Western half, and is more analogous to a major bureaucracy within a corporation than a janitor.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #126 on: September 07, 2018, 05:43:08 pm »
Prove that the Catholic Church was in fact given government power and not just religious authority, because the two are very different things. You can't just assume that.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #127 on: September 07, 2018, 06:15:58 pm »
But it's not even a remnant of the authority. An individual McDonald's burger joint that is sold to a different franchise does not inherit the authority of the McD corporation. Especially not when the McD corporation still exists even if they sell one of the former locations they had.


If being the state church gives some sort of authority, then that authority would have been with the Orthodox church as it remained the state church as it always had been. All this talk about "state church" completely ignores the historical fact that Edict of Thessalonica made Nicene Christianity the state religion and even though both Catholic and Orthodox church are part of that branch of Christianity the capital of the Empire was moved to Constantinople which means that the Orthodox church is the one that was the most powerful sub-branch of Christianity within Roman Empire.

Constantinople was the capital of the Eastern half of the Empire. Rome was the capital of the Western half. They were therefore equal in power and influence.
Not equal in power and influence because the "western half" was invaded and subdivided by the invaders, the "Western Empire" wasn't at a time when the Eastern Empire still was. It doesn't matter if that bunch of petty kingdoms had a Roman church huddling in the centre of it, a Roman Empire it wasn't!

Offline dpareja

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #128 on: September 07, 2018, 06:45:21 pm »
Also, if the Catholic Church could legitimize rulers of former parts of the Western Roman Empire, then William the Conqueror was a legitimate ruler of England.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #129 on: September 07, 2018, 07:06:20 pm »
But it's not even a remnant of the authority. An individual McDonald's burger joint that is sold to a different franchise does not inherit the authority of the McD corporation. Especially not when the McD corporation still exists even if they sell one of the former locations they had.


If being the state church gives some sort of authority, then that authority would have been with the Orthodox church as it remained the state church as it always had been. All this talk about "state church" completely ignores the historical fact that Edict of Thessalonica made Nicene Christianity the state religion and even though both Catholic and Orthodox church are part of that branch of Christianity the capital of the Empire was moved to Constantinople which means that the Orthodox church is the one that was the most powerful sub-branch of Christianity within Roman Empire.

Constantinople was the capital of the Eastern half of the Empire. Rome was the capital of the Western half. They were therefore equal in power and influence.
Not equal in power and influence because the "western half" was invaded and subdivided by the invaders, the "Western Empire" wasn't at a time when the Eastern Empire still was. It doesn't matter if that bunch of petty kingdoms had a Roman church huddling in the centre of it, a Roman Empire it wasn't!

They were equal in power and influence before the Western half fell, meaning that the Catholic Church rightfully inherited the power of the Western half and be equal in succession to the Roman Empire as the Byzantines were.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #130 on: September 07, 2018, 07:07:10 pm »
Also, if the Catholic Church could legitimize rulers of former parts of the Western Roman Empire, then William the Conqueror was a legitimate ruler of England.

But legitimization cannot contradict or go against the legitimacy of a royal line previously legitimized.

Offline dpareja

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #131 on: September 07, 2018, 07:14:09 pm »
Except that Harold abdicated his legitimacy in an oath before God.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #132 on: September 07, 2018, 07:51:13 pm »
They were equal in power and influence before the Western half fell, meaning that the Catholic Church rightfully inherited the power of the Western half and be equal in succession to the Roman Empire as the Byzantines were.
The "western half" was taken by force by the Romans in the first place and wasn't there after it was invaded and collapsed, "rights" don't come into it. You don't get the "right" to own something that was stolen to begin with.

In any case, show us the specific Roman law that says the RCC gets to inherit the Roman empire! Where is it?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 07:53:00 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2018, 07:53:57 pm »
They were equal in power and influence before the Western half fell, meaning that the Catholic Church rightfully inherited the power of the Western half and be equal in succession to the Roman Empire as the Byzantines were.
The "western half" was taken by force by the Romans in the first place and wasn't there after it was invaded and collapsed, "rights" don't come into it. You don't get the "right" to own something that was stolen to begin with.

In any case, show us the specific Roman law that says the RCC gets to inherit the Roman empire! Where is it?

But the Romans were the first to bring civilization to much of the land of the Western half, where it was previously primitive barbarian tribes.

Offline dpareja

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #134 on: September 07, 2018, 10:14:56 pm »
Did those tribes consent to being governed by the Roman Empire? No? Then fuck off.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.