Author Topic: The most important announcement on this thread.  (Read 25426 times)

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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2018, 04:45:50 pm »
Yet here you are, adopting the inherited kingship of Rome's Germanic barbarian invaders as holy writ and insisting that the people of Britain and Northern Ireland put up with some guy that you say should own the place because of Germanic non Roman inheritance traditions.

Which is it? Are you in favor of Roman republicanism or the inherited monarchies of the Franks, Saxons, Vandals, Goths and other people who jumped all over your beloved Rome?

I am in favor of both. I am in favor of Roman Republicanism during the era of the Roman Empire and inherited monarchies after the invaders converted to Catholicism.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2018, 06:51:45 pm »
Yet here you are, adopting the inherited kingship of Rome's Germanic barbarian invaders as holy writ and insisting that the people of Britain and Northern Ireland put up with some guy that you say should own the place because of Germanic non Roman inheritance traditions.

Which is it? Are you in favor of Roman republicanism or the inherited monarchies of the Franks, Saxons, Vandals, Goths and other people who jumped all over your beloved Rome?

I am in favor of both. I am in favor of Roman Republicanism during the era of the Roman Empire and inherited monarchies after the invaders converted to Catholicism.
You can't be in favor of both, not if you want a coherent ideology. You can't simultaneously be a republican and a monarchist. It doesn't work. You may as well be a Christian atheist, socialist capitalist or an anarchist authoritarian.

Art Vandelay

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2018, 06:59:39 pm »
From the Wikipedia article on the Roman Emperor. “The Romans considered the office of emperor to be distinct from that of a king. The first emperor, Augustus, resolutely refused recognition as a monarch.[1] Although Augustus could claim that his power was authentically republican, his successor, Tiberius, could not convincingly make the same claim.[2] Nonetheless, for the first three hundred years of Roman Emperors, from Augustus until Diocletian, a great effort was made to emphasize that the Emperors were the leaders of a Republic.

From Diocletian onwards, emperors ruled in an openly monarchic style[3] and did not preserve the nominal principle of a republic, but the contrast with "kings" was maintained: although the imperial succession was generally hereditary, it was only hereditary if there was a suitable candidate acceptable to the army and the bureaucracy,[4] so the principle of automatic inheritance was not adopted. Elements of the Republican institutional framework (senate, consuls, and magistrates) were preserved until the very end of the Western Empire.”

So the descendants of an Emperor would not have a claim based solely on descent.
They have more of a claim than pagan invaders. Especially with no army or bureaucracy to turn them down.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2018, 07:53:34 pm »
Yet here you are, adopting the inherited kingship of Rome's Germanic barbarian invaders as holy writ and insisting that the people of Britain and Northern Ireland put up with some guy that you say should own the place because of Germanic non Roman inheritance traditions.

Which is it? Are you in favor of Roman republicanism or the inherited monarchies of the Franks, Saxons, Vandals, Goths and other people who jumped all over your beloved Rome?

I am in favor of both. I am in favor of Roman Republicanism during the era of the Roman Empire and inherited monarchies after the invaders converted to Catholicism.
You can't be in favor of both, not if you want a coherent ideology. You can't simultaneously be a republican and a monarchist. It doesn't work. You may as well be a Christian atheist, socialist capitalist or an anarchist authoritarian.

What I mean is that I liked the form of government the Roman Empire had, but am in favor of inherited monarchies after the fall of the Empire.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2018, 07:54:25 pm »
From the Wikipedia article on the Roman Emperor. “The Romans considered the office of emperor to be distinct from that of a king. The first emperor, Augustus, resolutely refused recognition as a monarch.[1] Although Augustus could claim that his power was authentically republican, his successor, Tiberius, could not convincingly make the same claim.[2] Nonetheless, for the first three hundred years of Roman Emperors, from Augustus until Diocletian, a great effort was made to emphasize that the Emperors were the leaders of a Republic.

From Diocletian onwards, emperors ruled in an openly monarchic style[3] and did not preserve the nominal principle of a republic, but the contrast with "kings" was maintained: although the imperial succession was generally hereditary, it was only hereditary if there was a suitable candidate acceptable to the army and the bureaucracy,[4] so the principle of automatic inheritance was not adopted. Elements of the Republican institutional framework (senate, consuls, and magistrates) were preserved until the very end of the Western Empire.”

So the descendants of an Emperor would not have a claim based solely on descent.
They have more of a claim than pagan invaders. Especially with no army or bureaucracy to turn them down.

They had no army or bureaucracy to legitimize them.

Offline dpareja

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2018, 07:56:20 pm »
Why wasn't the Roman form of government unsuitable for people after the Western Roman Empire fell?

You can't simultaneously be a republican and a monarchist. It doesn't work.

Technically, that depends on your definition of "republican". One definition is that it means you favour a representative democracy (rather than a direct democracy), in which case you can absolutely be both a republican and a monarchist--as I am.
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Art Vandelay

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2018, 08:05:40 pm »
They had no army or bureaucracy to legitimize them.
Yes, meaning the hereditary aspect of legitimate rulership is all that was left. If one component of succession ceases to exist while another remains intact and still capable of producing a ruler, then that is the legitimate line of succession. It does not mean an institution that by your own admission does not have the right to legitimise illegitimate rulers can hand off those titles to pagan invaders.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2018, 08:22:00 pm »
Why wasn't the Roman form of government unsuitable for people after the Western Roman Empire fell?

You can't simultaneously be a republican and a monarchist. It doesn't work.

Technically, that depends on your definition of "republican". One definition is that it means you favour a representative democracy (rather than a direct democracy), in which case you can absolutely be both a republican and a monarchist--as I am.

Because the barbarian pagans had a different system so things had to adjust.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2018, 08:23:40 pm »
They had no army or bureaucracy to legitimize them.
Yes, meaning the hereditary aspect of legitimate rulership is all that was left. If one component of succession ceases to exist while another remains intact and still capable of producing a ruler, then that is the legitimate line of succession. It does not mean an institution that by your own admission does not have the right to legitimise illegitimate rulers can hand off those titles to pagan invaders.

The component of support of the army and bureaucracy was a necessary component of legitimacy, and without it, the descendants of the Emperors are not the legitimate successors.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2018, 08:45:07 pm »
Why wasn't the Roman form of government unsuitable for people after the Western Roman Empire fell?

You can't simultaneously be a republican and a monarchist. It doesn't work.

Technically, that depends on your definition of "republican". One definition is that it means you favour a representative democracy (rather than a direct democracy), in which case you can absolutely be both a republican and a monarchist--as I am.
Not in the specific way Jacob is using it anyway. Being both in favour of a system of inherited power and a system that specifically isn't that is just...weird.

But then it's Jacob innit, incoherence and weirdness should be expected by now.

Art Vandelay

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2018, 08:51:38 pm »
The component of support of the army and bureaucracy was a necessary component of legitimacy, and without it, the descendants of the Emperors are not the legitimate successors.
It was the strongest claim that existed at the time, and if you do indeed believe that absolute inherited monarchies are the way to go from now on, it's all they should need in the first place. Indeed, it was stronger than the Church's supposed right to unilaterally disinherit them in favour of pagan conquerors.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2018, 09:37:39 pm »
The component of support of the army and bureaucracy was a necessary component of legitimacy, and without it, the descendants of the Emperors are not the legitimate successors.
It was the strongest claim that existed at the time, and if you do indeed believe that absolute inherited monarchies are the way to go from now on, it's all they should need in the first place. Indeed, it was stronger than the Church's supposed right to unilaterally disinherit them in favour of pagan conquerors.

I believe in automatic inheritance when it is part of a nation’s legal system, which it wasn’t in the Roman Empire. According to the legal system in the Roman Empire, they had no claim, since there was no army of bureaucracy to legitimize them.

Art Vandelay

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2018, 10:50:38 pm »
I believe in automatic inheritance when it is part of a nation’s legal system, which it wasn’t in the Roman Empire. According to the legal system in the Roman Empire, they had no claim, since there was no army of bureaucracy to legitimize them.
Neither did the Germanic invaders. They certainly weren't descended from the previous emperor, nor were they supported by the army and state bureaucracy, nor is there any such law that states the Church has the authority to unilaterally give away provinces to invading pagans. Yet you're perfectly okay with that instance of blatantly unlawful succession. Once again, your double standards are showing.

Offline dpareja

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2018, 11:19:26 pm »
I believe in automatic inheritance when it is part of a nation’s legal system, which it wasn’t in the Roman Empire. According to the legal system in the Roman Empire, they had no claim, since there was no army of bureaucracy to legitimize them.
Neither did the Germanic invaders. They certainly weren't descended from the previous emperor, nor were they supported by the army and state bureaucracy, nor is there any such law that states the Church has the authority to unilaterally give away provinces to invading pagans. Yet you're perfectly okay with that instance of blatantly unlawful succession. Once again, your double standards are showing.

But remember, might makes right, it's why the US can be a democracy after fighting a bloody war to kick out the British while the UK itself can't be since the whole transition from personal rule to Parliamentary rule was gradual and peaceful.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Art Vandelay

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2018, 11:24:15 pm »
But remember, might makes right, it's why the US can be a democracy after fighting a bloody war to kick out the British while the UK itself can't be since the whole transition from personal rule to Parliamentary rule was gradual and peaceful.
Except for the the Hundred Years War and the English Civil War. The results of those wars don't count because reasons.