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Rubbish => Preaching and Worship => Topic started by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 12:12:32 pm

Title: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 12:12:32 pm
I know that I haven’t convinced you that the Christian God exists despite the overwhelming evidence I showed when trying to convert you. However think about it, shouldn’t you worship him just in case he exists so that you don’t go to hell?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Art Vandelay on August 26, 2018, 12:16:27 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Criticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Criticism)
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Askold on August 26, 2018, 12:21:20 pm
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 01:29:40 pm
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 02:26:34 pm
Oh for fuck's sake Pascal's Wager?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 02:37:13 pm
Oh for fuck's sake Pascal's Wager?

I already addressed the many religions objections of Pascal’s wager in my previous comment on why Christianity stands out.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 02:41:50 pm
So you believe in a God dumb enough not to see through the fact that we'd be worshipping it (or going through the motions of worship) because of some probabilistic notion and not because we actually do believe?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 02:48:09 pm
So you believe in a God dumb enough not to see through the fact that we'd be worshipping it (or going through the motions of worship) because of some probabilistic notion and not because we actually do believe?

He will see that you wish to be saved and will eventually make you believe once he answers your prayers.

“Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.” Mathew 7:7
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: davedan on August 26, 2018, 04:01:33 pm
Islam is unlikely because Mohammed had to memorise the verses. Christianity suffers from no such credibility problems, such as:
holding a criminal trial at passover
a roman governor being bullied by the locals into executing someone he doesn't want to
a man so famous he was going to spark a revolution needing to be identified by one of his followers

etc etc

And that's not touching the wedding at Cana, the loaves and the fishes, the resurrection of lazaraus, the resurrection, the astronomical events otherwise unreported.

Yes I know which is more likely.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: ironbite on August 26, 2018, 04:21:52 pm
I'm sorry ultimate question?

Ironbite-it's anything you want your cousin to wear dude.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 26, 2018, 04:51:24 pm
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.
Uh, the ancient Greeks had eternal afterlife punishments too. Likely early Greek Christian converts borrowed the concept as it's foreign to Judaism.

Here again Jacob demonstrates that his faith is incredibly weak, I have a lot of Catholics in my family and they are very defensive of their faith and believe in it strongly but it's not the threat of hell that keeps them there and they don't use it on other people-and this doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in hell. They just believe all that stuff about Jesus and his ministry as told via the RCC, I don't bloody understand why but it's not the threat of hell. I understand that.

True faith and devotion can't come from argumentum ad baculum, merely compliance and for compliance the threat has to be credible. The threat of hell is only credible if you uncritically accept the whole package offered in hell-believing religions.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 05:06:24 pm
"[Religions] can't all be right but they can all be wrong."

What if God's chosen people are a species on a planet on the far side of a galaxy twenty billion light-years away and we're just an accident of abiogenesis? We might all be damned to eternal torture simply for not being said species.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Art Vandelay on August 26, 2018, 05:27:11 pm
Come to think of it, I could just make up my own religion. I mean, last night I was visited by an angel, and he told me that I must found a new faith in order to save the souls of all of humanity. Basically, everyone has to give me $1000 per day, and gargle my scrotum for at least ten minutes per week, or upon their passing from the mortal coil, they will be sent to the Plane of Nurples for all eternity, where various imps and goblins will continuously attack and twist their nipples with clamps.

Sure, I could just be full of shit, but why take that chance? Surely it's worth going through the motions just to avoid the possibility of eternal nipple cripples, yes?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 05:47:01 pm
Islam is unlikely because Mohammed had to memorise the verses. Christianity suffers from no such credibility problems, such as:
holding a criminal trial at passover
a roman governor being bullied by the locals into executing someone he doesn't want to
a man so famous he was going to spark a revolution needing to be identified by one of his followers

etc etc

And that's not touching the wedding at Cana, the loaves and the fishes, the resurrection of lazaraus, the resurrection, the astronomical events otherwise unreported.

Yes I know which is more likely.

1. How does the Passover effect his trial?

2. How is that far fetched? He was surrounded by an angry mob.

3. They didn’t have photography back then. Many people would have heard of him but not know what he looked like.

4. But he is the son of God so he could perform those miracles. That is more likely than a mere man memorizing all those verses.

5. The darkness was reported by sources outside the Bible. https://carm.org/there-non-biblical-evidence-day-darkness-christs-death
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 05:51:14 pm
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.
Uh, the ancient Greeks had eternal afterlife punishments too. Likely early Greek Christian converts borrowed the concept as it's foreign to Judaism.

Here again Jacob demonstrates that his faith is incredibly weak, I have a lot of Catholics in my family and they are very defensive of their faith and believe in it strongly but it's not the threat of hell that keeps them there and they don't use it on other people-and this doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in hell. They just believe all that stuff about Jesus and his ministry as told via the RCC, I don't bloody understand why but it's not the threat of hell. I understand that.

True faith and devotion can't come from argumentum ad baculum, merely compliance and for compliance the threat has to be credible. The threat of hell is only credible if you uncritically accept the whole package offered in hell-believing religions.

But the Greeks didn’t believe that people of other religions would go to Tartarus. And I am warning you s about Hell so that you don’t end up there not because of weak faith.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: davedan on August 26, 2018, 06:02:13 pm
Pretty sure Zoroastrianism has eternal punishment too.

The citation of Thallus is laughable. Julius Africanus reports reading Thallus but no one else ever did. Wonder why that is?

Passover - no business, including legal trials would be conducted over passover. They would have been committing sacrilege by holding the trial

Romans - You know they had conquered the province. In doing so they had been surrounded by Judaens in greater numbers, trained and armed. Pontius Pilate had the only soldiers in the province.

Yet he was famous, certainly didn't require the treachery of his comrade. Especially as he had apparently debated many of the people personally who wanted him killed, and no one could identify the man who stormed the temple? I'm sure the pigeon sellers and moneylenders could have identified him.

Yes miracles are more likely than a good (and if accepted divinely inspired) memory.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 26, 2018, 06:13:30 pm
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.
Uh, the ancient Greeks had eternal afterlife punishments too. Likely early Greek Christian converts borrowed the concept as it's foreign to Judaism.

Here again Jacob demonstrates that his faith is incredibly weak, I have a lot of Catholics in my family and they are very defensive of their faith and believe in it strongly but it's not the threat of hell that keeps them there and they don't use it on other people-and this doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in hell. They just believe all that stuff about Jesus and his ministry as told via the RCC, I don't bloody understand why but it's not the threat of hell. I understand that.

True faith and devotion can't come from argumentum ad baculum, merely compliance and for compliance the threat has to be credible. The threat of hell is only credible if you uncritically accept the whole package offered in hell-believing religions.

But the Greeks didn’t believe that people of other religions would go to Tartarus. And I am warning you s about Hell so that you don’t end up there not because of weak faith.
Yeah but to accept your argument about hell being a problem I first have to believe what you do and accept that it's a problem, I don't.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 06:38:28 pm
I see that Jakey-boy hasn't said a thing about my supposition that God only cares about a species twenty billion light-years away. Clearly this means that he's having serious doubts about whether he's been wrong all this time.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: davedan on August 26, 2018, 06:46:50 pm
We are just the unhappy by-product of the creation  of the true meaning of the universe. Isn't there a SMBC cartoon about that?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 07:16:20 pm
This one maybe?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: davedan on August 26, 2018, 07:32:24 pm
No this one:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 07:36:12 pm
Fixed that.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: davedan on August 26, 2018, 07:43:02 pm
Thanks
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 07:54:57 pm
Pretty sure Zoroastrianism has eternal punishment too.

The citation of Thallus is laughable. Julius Africanus reports reading Thallus but no one else ever did. Wonder why that is?

Passover - no business, including legal trials would be conducted over passover. They would have been committing sacrilege by holding the trial

Romans - You know they had conquered the province. In doing so they had been surrounded by Judaens in greater numbers, trained and armed. Pontius Pilate had the only soldiers in the province.

Yet he was famous, certainly didn't require the treachery of his comrade. Especially as he had apparently debated many of the people personally who wanted him killed, and no one could identify the man who stormed the temple? I'm sure the pigeon sellers and moneylenders could have identified him.

Yes miracles are more likely than a good (and if accepted divinely inspired) memory.

Multiple ancient historians cited Thallus according to this article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_(historian)

And the Pharisees were corrupt so they willingly committed the sacrilege when trying Jesus.

Pilate was not prepared with the backup legions as he was surrounded so he wasn’t able to use them to put down the mob.

And the Quran was written after Muhammad so even if Muhammad memorized the verses word for word, it is absurd that those who came after him memorized those exact same words.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 08:02:10 pm
I see that Jakey-boy hasn't said a thing about my supposition that God only cares about a species twenty billion light-years away. Clearly this means that he's having serious doubts about whether he's been wrong all this time.

Because of that is true, then I have nothing to lose. But if Christianity is true, and you don’t accept it, then you have eternity to lose.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: davedan on August 26, 2018, 08:02:40 pm
Cited Thallus but not the astronomical events cited only by Africanus or repeated from Africanus.

Corrupt or not they were certain to give the appearance of righteousness which a trial over Passover would have destroyed. After all aren't they the 'whited sepulchers' ? That just makes it more unlikely.

Pilate would have always had soldiers with him.

No answer to the identification of such a famous man requiring treachery, rather than an unhappy pigeon seller.

Again inifinite fish is much more likely than continuous oral history. Although you don't seem to have realised that may create some problems for your religion.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 08:18:02 pm
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

Quote
One way to counter the wager is to replace Pascal's Judeo-Christian God with a perverse god that punishes those who believe in him without evidence, and rewards those who don't. Note that this doesn't even presuppose that the Bible and other holy texts are not divinely inspired: this god could have authored them to serve as a test of credulity. Importantly, because Pascal's Wager can only work if you improve the prior probability of any one god's existence over the others (which generally doesn't happen in any theological argument) this wager is exactly as valid as Pascal's original formulation.

In this case:

Belief in God + God exists = infinite punishment.
Belief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant loss.
Disbelief in God + God exists = infinite reward.
Disbelief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant gain.

Quote
This theoretical belief system presents a win/win scenario for atheists and a lose/lose scenario for those who believe in God. Since the two contrasting ideas of a specific god are logically equivalent in likelihood, atheism is shown to have the greatest potential for gain, completely negating and effectively reversing Pascal's argument. Remember, this is equally empirically provable as Pascal's Wager, and so we now have to factor in a 50:50 chance of Pascal's Wager being true or this one being true.

The wager assumes that there is a self-evident reason for rewarding blind faith. Why is the faith of a believer better than the personal courage of the disbeliever that leads an outstanding life? Why does a deity prefer blind faith over evidence based submission?

The real argument goes in the opposite direction: God exists (I assume) and I cannot see him, therefore he has to have a reason not to show himself. Therefore, there has to be something for me if I play along.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 26, 2018, 08:30:22 pm
I see that Jakey-boy hasn't said a thing about my supposition that God only cares about a species twenty billion light-years away. Clearly this means that he's having serious doubts about whether he's been wrong all this time.

Because of that is true, then I have nothing to lose. But if Christianity is true, and you don’t accept it, then you have eternity to lose.
Here's the thing, it's not the grudging acceptance of a victim of crime handing his wallet to a mugger or the confused mental state of someone with Stockholm syndrome that gets you through the pearly gates according to that schema, it's true dedication and love. Even if it were true (it's not) I couldn't respect a being asking for my love on those terms I'd always secretly or openly hate them. No deal, you don't get love by showing me the instruments of torture!
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 09:03:40 pm
Cited Thallus but not the astronomical events cited only by Africanus or repeated from Africanus.

Corrupt or not they were certain to give the appearance of righteousness which a trial over Passover would have destroyed. After all aren't they the 'whited sepulchers' ? That just makes it more unlikely.

Pilate would have always had soldiers with him.

No answer to the identification of such a famous man requiring treachery, rather than an unhappy pigeon seller.

Again inifinite fish is much more likely than continuous oral history. Although you don't seem to have realised that may create some problems for your religion.

1. The Judeans were wicked and wanted Christ crucified right away, disregarding the laws, so the Pharisees had him tried on the Passover.

2. But at that time Pilate was surrounded, so he couldn’t have called for backup.

3. The pigeon seller probably left Jeruselem by the time that Christ was arrested.

4. While oral history is very likely, the same exact words being memorized is not.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 09:08:55 pm
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

Quote
One way to counter the wager is to replace Pascal's Judeo-Christian God with a perverse god that punishes those who believe in him without evidence, and rewards those who don't. Note that this doesn't even presuppose that the Bible and other holy texts are not divinely inspired: this god could have authored them to serve as a test of credulity. Importantly, because Pascal's Wager can only work if you improve the prior probability of any one god's existence over the others (which generally doesn't happen in any theological argument) this wager is exactly as valid as Pascal's original formulation.

In this case:

Belief in God + God exists = infinite punishment.
Belief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant loss.
Disbelief in God + God exists = infinite reward.
Disbelief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant gain.

Quote
This theoretical belief system presents a win/win scenario for atheists and a lose/lose scenario for those who believe in God. Since the two contrasting ideas of a specific god are logically equivalent in likelihood, atheism is shown to have the greatest potential for gain, completely negating and effectively reversing Pascal's argument. Remember, this is equally empirically provable as Pascal's Wager, and so we now have to factor in a 50:50 chance of Pascal's Wager being true or this one being true.

The wager assumes that there is a self-evident reason for rewarding blind faith. Why is the faith of a believer better than the personal courage of the disbeliever that leads an outstanding life? Why does a deity prefer blind faith over evidence based submission?

The real argument goes in the opposite direction: God exists (I assume) and I cannot see him, therefore he has to have a reason not to show himself. Therefore, there has to be something for me if I play along.

1. I already explained why Christianity stands out over other religions due to rejecting it causing there to be the greatest loss. And God damning non believers is far more likely and not equally as valid as him being a perverse psycho who damns believers.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 09:12:46 pm
Go and read the entire article, that's hardly the only counter-argument.

And why would a god be so vain as to desire worship?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 09:30:19 pm
I see that Jakey-boy hasn't said a thing about my supposition that God only cares about a species twenty billion light-years away. Clearly this means that he's having serious doubts about whether he's been wrong all this time.

Because of that is true, then I have nothing to lose. But if Christianity is true, and you don’t accept it, then you have eternity to lose.
Here's the thing, it's not the grudging acceptance of a victim of crime handing his wallet to a mugger or the confused mental state of someone with Stockholm syndrome that gets you through the pearly gates according to that schema, it's true dedication and love. Even if it were true (it's not) I couldn't respect a being asking for my love on those terms I'd always secretly or openly hate them. No deal, you don't get love by showing me the instruments of torture!

So you believe in a God dumb enough not to see through the fact that we'd be worshipping it (or going through the motions of worship) because of some probabilistic notion and not because we actually do believe?

He will see that you wish to be saved and will eventually make you believe once he answers your prayers.

“Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.” Mathew 7:7
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 26, 2018, 09:36:35 pm
Go and read the entire article, that's hardly the only counter-argument.

And why would a god be so vain as to desire worship?

Because he created us making him our master and we owe him praise for creating us and sending his son to die for our sins.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 26, 2018, 10:26:21 pm
So if I have a child, then, having had a part in said child's creation, am I that child's master?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 26, 2018, 10:38:22 pm
Go and read the entire article, that's hardly the only counter-argument.

And why would a god be so vain as to desire worship?

Because he created us making him our master and we owe him praise for creating us and sending his son to die for our sins.
Hey Jacob, direct question if a mum sets her kids on fire for not praising her is she right to do so or a psychotic bitch?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 27, 2018, 12:47:02 am
https://abc13.com/where-is-andrea-yates-now-peek-inside-her-secluded-life/1980992/
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Skybison on August 27, 2018, 01:26:18 am
But Jacob, in the bible Jesus clearly says that if you go to Heaven or Hell is determined by whether or not you help others when they need it, not by what you believed:

Quote
Matthew 25:31-46 New International Version (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Come on Jacob, you going to tell me the Good Samaritan went to hell?  Cause he wasn't a Christian or even a Jew.

Since Jesus said that the afterlife is about whether or not you feed the hungry, welcome the stranger and care for the sick, that brings politics into it.  In the modern world the most effective way to feed the hungry and care for the sick is with big centralized government programs supported by the democrats, while the republicans oppose these programs.  Likewise the democrats welcome strangers into the US and try to help them, while republicans want to build walls and throw children in prison camps.

This suggests that Pascal's wager has it wrong, and should really look like this:

                      God ExistsGod Doesn't Exist
Vote DemocratEternal RewardMaybe lost money but helped others
Vote RepublicanEternal PunishmentMaybe saved some money but hurt others

So even if you don't care about helping other people, shouldn't you vote democratic anyway Jacob, just to be on the safe side?  Because if Jesus is God and the bible is his word, then people who vote for Trump are going to hell.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 27, 2018, 03:08:51 am
People who vote Democrat support killing babies.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Art Vandelay on August 27, 2018, 03:27:25 am
People who support raping babies, on the other hand, are denied the political representation that is their democratic right.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Svata on August 27, 2018, 05:18:00 am
Go and read the entire article, that's hardly the only counter-argument.

And why would a god be so vain as to desire worship?

Because he created us making him our master and we owe him praise for creating us and sending his son to die for our sins.


That's, uh, kind of an asshole thing to do.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 27, 2018, 05:52:59 am
Go and read the entire article, that's hardly the only counter-argument.

And why would a god be so vain as to desire worship?

Because he created us making him our master and we owe him praise for creating us and sending his son to die for our sins.
Hey Jacob, direct question if a mum sets her kids on fire for not praising her is she right to do so or a psychotic bitch?

She is not right to do so because she is only a minor creator. God is the creator of humanity and the entire universe.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 27, 2018, 06:00:54 am
But Jacob, in the bible Jesus clearly says that if you go to Heaven or Hell is determined by whether or not you help others when they need it, not by what you believed:

Quote
Matthew 25:31-46 New International Version (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Come on Jacob, you going to tell me the Good Samaritan went to hell?  Cause he wasn't a Christian or even a Jew.

Since Jesus said that the afterlife is about whether or not you feed the hungry, welcome the stranger and care for the sick, that brings politics into it.  In the modern world the most effective way to feed the hungry and care for the sick is with big centralized government programs supported by the democrats, while the republicans oppose these programs.  Likewise the democrats welcome strangers into the US and try to help them, while republicans want to build walls and throw children in prison camps.

This suggests that Pascal's wager has it wrong, and should really look like this:

                      God ExistsGod Doesn't Exist
Vote DemocratEternal RewardMaybe lost money but helped others
Vote RepublicanEternal PunishmentMaybe saved some money but hurt others

So even if you don't care about helping other people, shouldn't you vote democratic anyway Jacob, just to be on the safe side?  Because if Jesus is God and the bible is his word, then people who vote for Trump are going to hell.

1. It is true that salvation comes from faith and good works. Private charities are a more effective way of helping the poor. And the sick will still be taken care of under Trumpcare. In fact Trump is doing a better job taking care of the poor because the unemployment rate is low, the economy is doing well, and he is trying to preserve American industries and keep jobs in America.

2. Strangers are welcome if they come here LEGALLY, either by legal immigration or legal asylum status. Not enforcing the immigration laws makes it worse for America's poor because the illegal immigrants take their jobs.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 27, 2018, 06:01:36 am
People who vote Democrat support killing babies.

Exactly.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 27, 2018, 07:59:04 am
Go and read the entire article, that's hardly the only counter-argument.

And why would a god be so vain as to desire worship?

Because he created us making him our master and we owe him praise for creating us and sending his son to die for our sins.
Hey Jacob, direct question if a mum sets her kids on fire for not praising her is she right to do so or a psychotic bitch?

She is not right to do so because she is only a minor creator. God is the creator of humanity and the entire universe.
Tbe old "hidden minor creator clause" ooh, you most creative and clever debater. Truly, we are truly overwhelmed by your massive powers of debate.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: KingOfRhye on August 27, 2018, 08:37:19 am
"The ultimate question"?  I already know the answer to that....

42.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Skybison on August 27, 2018, 09:59:24 am
1. It is true that salvation comes from faith and good works.

No it doesn't.  Good works alone.  God doesn't care about faith.

Quote
Private charities are a more effective way of helping the poor.


Private charities are far less helpful to the poor because they don't have anywhere near the budget government programs do.  At any rate:

DIRECT QUESTION: How much of your income to you give to charity? 

Because even if that's all true, you will still go to hell unless it's a lot.

Quote
And the sick will still be taken care of under Trumpcare.

False: The CBO studied it and found that 26 500 people will die every year if Trumpcare is passed.

Quote
In fact Trump is doing a better job taking care of the poor because the unemployment rate is low, the economy is doing well, and he is trying to preserve American industries and keep jobs in America.

He also is starting a trade war that will destroy the world's economy, and countries that are far more socialist then the US (Ie Norway) have far less poverty then the US.

Quote
2. Strangers are welcome if they come here LEGALLY, either by legal immigration or legal asylum status. Not enforcing the immigration laws makes it worse for America's poor because the illegal immigrants take their jobs.

The bible says nothing about legal or illegal.  Please show me where if you don't believe me.  Only that you must welcome the stranger.  Trying to find excuses to not do so like "That DREAMER was brought here illegally when he was a year old, so kick him out!" will not impress God and you will go to hell for it.  And of course you have all the things republicans are doing to not welcome legal strangers like Trump's Muslim ban.  If you support the ban you will go to hell.

People who vote Democrat support killing babies.

Exactly.

If you are talking about abortion, the bible never says that abortion is bad, and lots about helping the poor. 

Face it Jacob, when you die and meet Jesus he's going to be wearing a "I'm with Her" or "Feel the Bern" shirt and once he sees your MAGA hat it's off to the lake of fire with you. 

Even if you don't think that's likely, shouldn't you switch sides politically just in case?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 27, 2018, 12:48:58 pm
1. It is true that salvation comes from faith and good works.

No it doesn't.  Good works alone.  God doesn't care about faith.

That contradicts Church dogma and the Bible.

“[16] For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. [18] He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. [20] For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved.”

So you must do good works and  have faith to be saved.

Quote

Quote
Private charities are a more effective way of helping the poor.


Private charities are far less helpful to the poor because they don't have anywhere near the budget government programs do.  At any rate:

DIRECT QUESTION: How much of your income to you give to charity? 

Because even if that's all true, you will still go to hell unless it's a lot.

Because the charities only focus on what is neccesary, which is actually helping the poor while the government programs make people dependent on them and providing excess welfare which encourages laziness and doesn’t help in the long run. I am going to college so I am not making income, but in the future I will use the income I need to take care of myself and give a lot to charity.

Quote
Quote
And the sick will still be taken care of under Trumpcare.

False: The CBO studied it and found that 26 500 people will die every year if Trumpcare is passed.

Nowhere in this article does it say that. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52486 The CBO said that the amount of people uninsured will increase by 24 million because the penalties will be repealed, so people will have the freedom to choose whether to be covered by health insurance. It will also reduce the federal deficit, so it will overall be a benefit. People will still be insured if they want to.

Quote
Quote
In fact Trump is doing a better job taking care of the poor because the unemployment rate is low, the economy is doing well, and he is trying to preserve American industries and keep jobs in America.

He also is starting a trade war that will destroy the world's economy, and countries that are far more socialist then the US (Ie Norway) have far less poverty then the US.

The trade war in the long run will keep jobs in America and will cause more fair trade deals to be negotiated, because China and the other countries won’t want their economies destroyed.

Quote
Quote
2. Strangers are welcome if they come here LEGALLY, either by legal immigration or legal asylum status. Not enforcing the immigration laws makes it worse for America's poor because the illegal immigrants take their jobs.

The bible says nothing about legal or illegal.  Please show me where if you don't believe me.  Only that you must welcome the stranger.  Trying to find excuses to not do so like "That DREAMER was brought here illegally when he was a year old, so kick him out!" will not impress God and you will go to hell for it.  And of course you have all the things republicans are doing to not welcome legal strangers like Trump's Muslim ban.  If you support the ban you will go to hell.

That is because you need to put the Bible into historcal context. There were no border laws back then, and while it said to give food and clothing to the strangers, it does not say to let them become in your society. Ancient Israel still had immigration laws that required assimilation by converting and getting circumcised. And the Muslim ban is to protect America from Muslim terrorist attacks. That is why America has had far less attacks than in Europe.

People who vote Democrat support killing babies.

Exactly.

If you are talking about abortion, the bible never says that abortion is bad, and lots about helping the poor. 

Face it Jacob, when you die and meet Jesus he's going to be wearing a "I'm with Her" or "Feel the Bern" shirt and once he sees your MAGA hat it's off to the lake of fire with you. 

Even if you don't think that's likely, shouldn't you switch sides politically just in case?
[/quote]

Jesus is on the side of the Republicans because they promote Christianity, and oppose abortion and gay marriage.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Svata on August 27, 2018, 12:59:31 pm
Jacob doesn't seem to have responded to me re: "Creating beings and giving them free will to do as they will and then torturing them if they don't do as you say" being an asshole thing to do.


Jacob, direct question: Is that an asshole thing to do? If not, why?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 27, 2018, 01:03:26 pm
Unemployment figures say shit about the state of the economy and how it's working for those at the bottom. It's easy to have 0% unemployment.

EDIT: Also, Jakey-boy, if you're going to accept such a glib generalization of Democratic voters, I'll also say that people who vote Republican support killing schoolchildren (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/19/us-supplied-bomb-that-killed-40-children-school-bus-yemen), and that people who give (or have given at some point since 2002) even one cent to the Catholic Church support sexually assaulting minors.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 27, 2018, 03:01:13 pm
Jacob doesn't seem to have responded to me re: "Creating beings and giving them free will to do as they will and then torturing them if they don't do as you say" being an asshole thing to do.


Jacob, direct question: Is that an asshole thing to do? If not, why?

It is not, because our free will gives us responsibility over our actions, so God is angry when people choose to disobey him. We are supposed to do what God says.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Art Vandelay on August 27, 2018, 03:18:59 pm
This does raise one very important question. If Sky Wizard is so butthurt because I'm spending an hour a week singing songs about how he's just the bee's knees, he could always just tell me himself. I'm sure you're going to say next that he sent you to do exactly that, in which case I would counter that if you are the best he can do, then that's just pathetic and if anything says that he's not worth worshipping even if he does exist (which he very much doesn't).

Not that it's not a stupid idea in the first place for his all-powerful self to outsource such an oh-so important duty, but you can't deny that standards have really been slipping as of late. 2000 years ago, his man could walk on water, raise the dead and generate infinite fish and bread. Today, his guy obsesses over his second cousin's towel wearing ways and still in this day and age thinks that national governments should be one guy's personal property. A compelling case, you most certainly do not make, my denim loving, testicle hating, totalitarianism advocating friend.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 27, 2018, 05:15:30 pm
This does raise one very important question. If Sky Wizard is so butthurt because I'm spending an hour a week singing songs about how he's just the bee's knees, he could always just tell me himself. I'm sure you're going to say next that he sent you to do exactly that, in which case I would counter that if you are the best he can do, then that's just pathetic and if anything says that he's not worth worshipping even if he does exist (which he very much doesn't).

Not that it's not a stupid idea in the first place for his all-powerful self to outsource such an oh-so important duty, but you can't deny that standards have really been slipping as of late. 2000 years ago, his man could walk on water, raise the dead and generate infinite fish and bread. Today, his guy obsesses over his second cousin's towel wearing ways and still in this day and age thinks that national governments should be one guy's personal property. A compelling case, you most certainly do not make, my denim loving, testicle hating, totalitarianism advocating friend.

He sent me to tell you just as he sends angels and prophets to do his bidding. He works in mysterious ways.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Art Vandelay on August 27, 2018, 05:41:22 pm
This does raise one very important question. If Sky Wizard is so butthurt because I'm spending an hour a week singing songs about how he's just the bee's knees, he could always just tell me himself. I'm sure you're going to say next that he sent you to do exactly that, in which case I would counter that if you are the best he can do, then that's just pathetic and if anything says that he's not worth worshipping even if he does exist (which he very much doesn't).

Not that it's not a stupid idea in the first place for his all-powerful self to outsource such an oh-so important duty, but you can't deny that standards have really been slipping as of late. 2000 years ago, his man could walk on water, raise the dead and generate infinite fish and bread. Today, his guy obsesses over his second cousin's towel wearing ways and still in this day and age thinks that national governments should be one guy's personal property. A compelling case, you most certainly do not make, my denim loving, testicle hating, totalitarianism advocating friend.

He sent me to tell you just as he sends angels and prophets to do his bidding. He works in mysterious ways.

Yeah, mysterious is right. He sends Tweedledee here to proselytise when he (presumably) knows full well that all it would take is a simple direct confirmation. Just a "Hi, how you going? Just so you know, I'm actually real, and if you don't sing songs about how fucking great I am for an hour per week, I'll roast your balls off." would do the job just fine in and take only about ten seconds.

I guess he's just not, shall we say, particularly results oriented.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 27, 2018, 08:45:19 pm
This does raise one very important question. If Sky Wizard is so butthurt because I'm spending an hour a week singing songs about how he's just the bee's knees, he could always just tell me himself. I'm sure you're going to say next that he sent you to do exactly that, in which case I would counter that if you are the best he can do, then that's just pathetic and if anything says that he's not worth worshipping even if he does exist (which he very much doesn't).

Not that it's not a stupid idea in the first place for his all-powerful self to outsource such an oh-so important duty, but you can't deny that standards have really been slipping as of late. 2000 years ago, his man could walk on water, raise the dead and generate infinite fish and bread. Today, his guy obsesses over his second cousin's towel wearing ways and still in this day and age thinks that national governments should be one guy's personal property. A compelling case, you most certainly do not make, my denim loving, testicle hating, totalitarianism advocating friend.

He sent me to tell you just as he sends angels and prophets to do his bidding. He works in mysterious ways.
Frankly if all the embodiment of a thousand billion galaxies can be bothered with is one sexually repressed, manipulative, uninspiring, intellectually dishonest, democracy hating pissant he can't be that fussed about what we do or don't think of him
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 27, 2018, 09:35:27 pm
This does raise one very important question. If Sky Wizard is so butthurt because I'm spending an hour a week singing songs about how he's just the bee's knees, he could always just tell me himself. I'm sure you're going to say next that he sent you to do exactly that, in which case I would counter that if you are the best he can do, then that's just pathetic and if anything says that he's not worth worshipping even if he does exist (which he very much doesn't).

Not that it's not a stupid idea in the first place for his all-powerful self to outsource such an oh-so important duty, but you can't deny that standards have really been slipping as of late. 2000 years ago, his man could walk on water, raise the dead and generate infinite fish and bread. Today, his guy obsesses over his second cousin's towel wearing ways and still in this day and age thinks that national governments should be one guy's personal property. A compelling case, you most certainly do not make, my denim loving, testicle hating, totalitarianism advocating friend.

He sent me to tell you just as he sends angels and prophets to do his bidding. He works in mysterious ways.
Frankly if all the embodiment of a thousand billion galaxies can be bothered with is one sexually repressed, manipulative, uninspiring, intellectually dishonest, democracy hating pissant he can't be that fussed about what we do or don't think of him

God is trying to have you converted through me, but your wickedness is preventing you from converting.

“For this they are wilfully ignorant of, that the heavens were before, and the earth out of water, and through water, consisting by the word of God.” 2 Peter 3:5 Dhouy-Rheims version

“Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.”  Psalm 14:1

“And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient;” Romans 1:28

Please repent while you are still alive.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 27, 2018, 10:31:23 pm
Well of course the book that is pitching this whole "Christian God" concept would tell you that you're dumb and wicked for not buying what it's selling.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 27, 2018, 10:46:14 pm
As art said, this Jesus fella is getting sloppy. Back in the day we get reports of cured lepers, shimmying on water and going for a stroll after being, scourged, stabbed, stapled and killed. Also, free nibbles and vino, mate that'll get me into a boring town meeting or an art show that's pretentious! Now all we have accoring to you is...you.

You are not convincing, the last heroin addict I knew who told me she totally had a handle on her habit before we evicted her for minor theft and upaid rent was more convincing!
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: davedan on August 27, 2018, 10:48:20 pm
Shit if you go further back you could have seen God's arse if you were with Moses and the Israelites on Exodus. Or be like Jacob and actually wrestle with God.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 27, 2018, 10:59:04 pm
As art said, this Jesus fella is getting sloppy. Back in the day we get reports of cured lepers, shimmying on water and going for a stroll after being, scourged, stabbed, stapled and killed. Also, free nibbles and vino, mate that'll get me into a boring town meeting or an art show that's pretentious! Now all we have accoring to you is...you.

Go look up Sathya Sai Baba, we have videos of all of that now!
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Skybison on August 28, 2018, 12:20:42 am
Hey Jacob, there's an expression "Their is one thing all your bad relationships have in common: You."

If every single girl you date turns out to be a bitch, maybe they aren't, maybe the asshole is actually you and you're projecting that onto them.

You're trying to convert a bunch of people but no-one is biting.  If everyone else fails to convert, maybe that isn't because everyone else is wicked, maybe that means you're the problem.

You are a sinner too, the the greatest sin is pride.  And nothing marks a prideful person more then proclaiming "I must be right about everything, so if you don't agree you must be evil."
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 28, 2018, 05:10:54 am
Jacob "Here's my idea I want you guys to believe."
FSTDT "Nah dude, don't buy it."
Jacob  "It's your fault you don't believe me and because you don't, you're wicked!"
FSTDT "WTF? Piss off, idiot!"
Jacob "Your. Fault."
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 28, 2018, 10:58:17 am
Hey Jacob, there's an expression "Their is one thing all your bad relationships have in common: You."

If every single girl you date turns out to be a bitch, maybe they aren't, maybe the asshole is actually you and you're projecting that onto them.

You're trying to convert a bunch of people but no-one is biting.  If everyone else fails to convert, maybe that isn't because everyone else is wicked, maybe that means you're the problem.

You are a sinner too, the the greatest sin is pride.  And nothing marks a prideful person more then proclaiming "I must be right about everything, so if you don't agree you must be evil."

I know that I am a sinner and I wasn’t being prideful. I was pointing out what the Bible says about why you guys won’t convert.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: dpareja on August 28, 2018, 11:38:30 am
And, again, of course the book that's trying to convince us to convert would say that we're stupid if we don't.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Art Vandelay on August 28, 2018, 03:20:52 pm
Also, I'm not wicked. But I am totally rad.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 28, 2018, 05:01:22 pm
Jacob can I put it to you that this is probably the worst place to convert people on the web outside PZ Myers or Richard Dawkins blog. Unlike those spaces we aren't exclusively atheist but most of us have been exposed to almost every variety of bad religious arguments, FSTDT being a clearinghouse for such. We're all well acquainted with the bible, many of us were raised Christian and some, like myself, were raised Catholic.

Your problem isn't that we've never got the message, it's that we've all been guffawing at messages like yours for years now. Maybe you need an audience that's more gullible, also you'd be in more like minded company.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 28, 2018, 07:11:15 pm
Jacob can I put it to you that this is probably the worst place to convert people on the web outside PZ Myers or Richard Dawkins blog. Unlike those spaces we aren't exclusively atheist but most of us have been exposed to almost every variety of bad religious arguments, FSTDT being a clearinghouse for such. We're all well acquainted with the bible, many of us were raised Christian and some, like myself, were raised Catholic.

Your problem isn't that we've never got the message, it's that we've all been guffawing at messages like yours for years now. Maybe you need an audience that's more gullible, also you'd be in more like minded company.

What caused you to leave Catholicism?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 28, 2018, 09:26:25 pm
1 Don't believe in God.
2 Believe organized religion is a racket.
3 Find biblical morality inconsistant and lacking.
4 I respect that all the ritualism of Catholicism brings comfort to a lot of people and can be quite beautiful but I can live without it.
5 The RCC's stance on abortion and contraception is stupid, sexist and evil.
6 Their enabling of pedophile rapists is just plain evil.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Jacob Harrison on August 29, 2018, 01:46:36 am
1 Don't believe in God.
2 Believe organized religion is a racket.
3 Find biblical morality inconsistant and lacking.
4 I respect that all the ritualism of Catholicism brings comfort to a lot of people and can be quite beautiful but I can live without it.
5 The RCC's stance on abortion and contraception is stupid, sexist and evil.
6 Their enabling of pedophile rapists is just plain evil.

But if you were raised to believe in God and the Bible, what made you not believe in God?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Art Vandelay on August 29, 2018, 02:08:26 am
1 Don't believe in God.
2 Believe organized religion is a racket.
3 Find biblical morality inconsistant and lacking.
4 I respect that all the ritualism of Catholicism brings comfort to a lot of people and can be quite beautiful but I can live without it.
5 The RCC's stance on abortion and contraception is stupid, sexist and evil.
6 Their enabling of pedophile rapists is just plain evil.

But if you were raised to believe in God and the Bible, what made you not believe in God?

Not being retarded, most likely.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Question
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on August 29, 2018, 04:02:29 am
1 Don't believe in God.
2 Believe organized religion is a racket.
3 Find biblical morality inconsistant and lacking.
4 I respect that all the ritualism of Catholicism brings comfort to a lot of people and can be quite beautiful but I can live without it.
5 The RCC's stance on abortion and contraception is stupid, sexist and evil.
6 Their enabling of pedophile rapists is just plain evil.

But if you were raised to believe in God and the Bible, what made you not believe in God?
The fact that there is no evidence for God.