Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1534063 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8040 on: December 26, 2015, 10:59:27 pm »
No it's not but you're really not getting the point.  Most Americans don't give a damn about anyone other then their own Senators and Reps. Obama was a fresh faced youth who came out of nowhere to challenge the perceived status quo.
...So essentially people either are too lazy to do their research, or it just never occurred to them to maybe look into the newcomer whose campaign was promising a leftist golden age?

I guess I shouldn't be the least bit surprised at this point.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 06:28:48 pm by Art Vandelay »

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8041 on: December 26, 2015, 11:09:21 pm »
Unless there is a sea change in the party make up of Congress, it won't matter one fuck which Democrat is in the White House. A lot of the perception of Obama as "same old shit, different grin" is due to legislative blockage of just about everything. I'd dust off the old Bill Clinton-era "It's the Economy, Stupid!" bumper stickers and scrawl over them with "It's Congress Being Stupid!"
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Offline Random Gal

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8042 on: December 26, 2015, 11:41:22 pm »
Also, one of the reasons progressives like me are exited about Sanders is that he DOES have a record, and it's a genuinely liberal one, especially when it comes to opposing corporations.

Truth. He's someone you can actually count on, unlike Clinton who's really just an opportunist. Also, his being an independent for many years helps.

Offline nickiknack

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8043 on: December 26, 2015, 11:53:50 pm »
Unless there is a sea change in the party make up of Congress, it won't matter one fuck which Democrat is in the White House. A lot of the perception of Obama as "same old shit, different grin" is due to legislative blockage of just about everything. I'd dust off the old Bill Clinton-era "It's the Economy, Stupid!" bumper stickers and scrawl over them with "It's Congress Being Stupid!"
The thing is Obama has really turned into the same old, same old and it's not just Congress being stupid given the fact that he's willing for push for things like TPP, he's been endorsing that crap, just like the Clinton's were more than happy to go along with NAFTA, and etc.

Offline Random Gal

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8044 on: December 27, 2015, 12:34:44 am »
Hey, if it weren't for NAFTA I never would have gotten that internship in Canada last summer.

Art Vandelay

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8045 on: December 27, 2015, 04:54:50 am »
Free trade isn't a bad thing in the long term. The Trans Pacific Partnership, on the other hand, can fuck right off with its draconian copyright bullshit.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8046 on: December 27, 2015, 10:33:05 am »
Imagine either Clinton or Sanders waiting and hoping for even one decent piece of progressive legislation to make it to their desk if Congress remains the same. Wait for it. Wait for it. Grow much greyer and bitter looking and more wrinkled waiting for it. Do you remember how Obama went from vibrant, healthy middle age to grey and tired in just his first two years? He was a liberal to progressive Senator; his life long ideology did not change in his heart or mind. The reality was not so much him compromising with the opposition, as all presidents traditionally deal with, but almost 100% legislative impedance and executive order challenges from this GOP dominated Congress. The worst, least liked Congress in American history, with a public approval rating in the ten percentiles.

Presidents administer and enact legislation that Congress writes and passes, not the other way around. Executive orders are also quite limited in scope. The GOP will always be complete and utter anathema and 100% obstructionist towards any bills that are not part of their agenda. They will never stop unless and until there is a Republican president in the White House. Remember how we went from a large budget surplus to runaway debt again in the course of 24 months from the end of the Clinton Administration and into G. W. Bush? The GOP's plutocratic backers want "small government" by means of draining and dismantling it for sale with every single piece of ALEC program legislation passed at state level, and Koch PAC-sponsored bill in Congress.

If a Republican gains the White House this time, expect an express freight train full of rapacious, money squandering corporate subsidy, federal program privatization, and massive tax cut bills to arrive on his desk every week. At least the Medieval era robber barons maintained their bridge infrastructure.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8047 on: December 27, 2015, 11:44:20 am »
I know I said it before, but I'll say it again. All of this Sanders hype is nigh-on exactly the same as the Obama hype back in '08. If the two campaigns were works of fiction from different authors, one of them would be getting sued for blatant plagiarism. I really don't understand how anyone could assume that, much like Obama, a Sanders presidency wouldn't simply be business as usual for another four to eight years, rather than the Progressive Savior that his campaign seems to be promising.
If that's true, then why is everyone assuming Hillary's going to win? She was a contender last time around, too.

There are a lot of differences between Hillary in 2008 and today that bode well for the woman. First, no offense to Bernie, but Obama ran a masterful campaign that, as a politico, was a thing of beauty to watch. He focused on the states he needed, made strong inroads with traditionally red states like Ohio, Iowa, Virginia, and North Carolina. He put emphasis on the states he needed when he needed. Further He was solid in debates in such a way that he was borderline teflon with the few faults people tried to hang on him.

Second, Hillary goofed. She figured that as the front runner, she could hold off the early states, make a solid play on Super Tuesday, and wrap up the nomination. She really under played Iowa and Nevada (South Carolina would probably go to Obama anyways because the strength and enthusiasm of its black vote, and she won New Hampshire, but put forth little effort). This time, she has learned from her mistakes. More scary, several of the other campaign managers and organizations that work against her in 2008 are now on her side.

Third, the 8 way break on voting and the rockstar line-up of candidates hurt Hillary the most. She ran against the political outsider Obama, the working class hero Edwards, the experienced candidate Richardson, the international guru Biden, the super-left candidate Kucinich, the guy who was there Dodd, and the surly uncle who has dementia Gravel. Generally, until Edwards dropped out, the break nationally was 40-30-20 Hillary-Obama-Edwards. The multi-way break in debates also gave politicians more opportunity to bash on Hillary and often times her answers lacked the same resonance as today (she had 25 rounds with Obama, and she grew and learned). The break today is no where near as close, as Hillary leads Bernie nationally by close to 25% on average. While this has no bearing on the primaries, it does affect donors.

Penutlimately, a lot of the support rose from the fact that she campaigned in all 50 states. Many people already voted for her in 2008, I believe 17 million people to be exact. She is a more complete candidate today (in terms of debates and experience), so it is intuitive that she would retain a lot of the support that she got in 2008. Thus, she only needs to make marginal inroads with Obama voters from 2008 to secure the presidency. This is where Bernie comes in. I've mentioned a few things he has done confused me. Mostly, he is running on a singular issue of income inequality, and I like that. But, he's mono-dimensional. In many ways, I think he is not running for president as much as to get his issue talked about, and I do appreciate that as it is an issue we should discuss. But, he got the low hanging fruit, and he needs to make inroads with other groups: he got the socialist, the young people who don't like the status quo, and those who would never vote for a Clinton or a woman*. Now, he needs to expand a bit and appeal to new groups, and he isn't doing that. It is a big reason that his polling, nationally, has halted at 30-35%.

Which brings me to the last point, she's better funded. Jokes about corporate money aside, due to having more national support, she has more donors. She is absolutely correct to say that she was a lot of individual donations in response to challenges about being bought off. I donated $100 to her campaign: she is the clear front-runner within the legal community I work** (and we donate), and she is correct to point out that 60% of her donors are women. All in all, she is better funded today than she is in 2008, both as an individual and percentage of overall donations to candidates-wise.

In closing, I do think 2008 provides at least a blueprint on how to beat Hillary. However, I don't think it is automatically a repeat: Bernie has to do a few things to make it so, but he isn't doing those things. I think 2008 is a good way to remember that is is not over until it is over, but it is important to remember the key differences as well.

* While nobody here falls into that category, there are sexists democrats.
** this will tie into a second post I make later in regards to a post by Ibbles

Also, as a final aside, I am sorry for the thread-jacking I did. I was under the influence of considerable alcohol when I posted the Chewbacca defense, I really wanted to start off with a legit star wars discussion that would then devolve into the chewbacca defense, and ultimately into Trump. I did it for the lulz. So, could we break this discussion from the thread: maybe make it part of a P&G thread dedicated to "General discussion about the 2016 democratic primaries" or something like that.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8048 on: December 27, 2015, 02:20:28 pm »
All joking aside there Queen, Nicki does bring up a fair point that I think you want to dismiss due to how you feel about Bernie Sander's stances on gun control.  I'm seeing that a lot whenever we bring up something positive about Sanders or negative about Clinton.  You might not feel that way but it's how we see it.

Ironbite-and now back to sexy wrestling *dons battle bikini and throws out a war cry*

Doublepost.

All jokes aside, I feel I've been very favorable to Bernie, but have been met with outright dismissiveness if not denial. Such as now, my lack of support for Bernie is much more multi-dimensional than his stance on gun control: his lack of ability to work with people to pass legislation, his views on free trade, his bombastic attitude when it comes to yelling about his issues*, his fanning the flames of conspiracy theories**, his disgusting vote in favor of an amendment to an appropriations act to disallow warning Mexico about the racists Minute Man Militia***, and Bernie's proclivity for alienating his colleagues****. In sum, there is a lot more to a politician than simply that the politician's political stances coincide with yours. Further, this list is in no way exhaustive: I've said many times before that I hold back criticisms of Bernie because I know people will just get upset. But, I feel as though your post elicited this one.

And none of this is getting into the cult of personality that has evolved around him. In many ways, I want him not to become president purely because I will need a lot of alcohol to survive "feeling the bern" for 4, or god forbid 8, years. Of course, I'll vote for him if it comes to that, but I really wish the internet would stop being "Kitties, porn, and Bernie" and just go back to being "kittens and porn."

Finally, my initial comment, while made in a drunken stupor, was drawn out more in response to Nicki saying in this thread and in the other thread that "Hillary isn't cool enough to make a Star Wars joke." Which flabbergasts me. With the exception of the social butterflies, none of us are cool enough to judge another's coolness. We're more or less a ragtag posse of adorably awkward social outcasts. And Ironbite who is not adorable. But, Star Wars is the epitome of nerdy culture, and in many ways represents a win among nerd culture with general culture in that the Star Wars films are probably the most mainstream stories there are. Everyone knows them, regardless of affiliation with geek/nerd subculture. Hillary making that joke represents just how iconic and mainstream the story is. It represents a win in that one of our interests is mainstream enough to be referenced by a person who may be our next president. I feel, ironically, that while you say I dislike Bernie purely because of guns and that I am unable to see the bigger picture of Bernie, you ignore Nicki doing the exact thing with Hillary. Nothing Hillary does is good enough for Nicki to say "good job": Hillary making a reference to Star Wars on national television earns Nicki's ire. I can admit when Bernie does something right, I can admit when Hillary goofs. Just because I'm not dickriding Bernie does not mean that I am not seeing the bigger picture. Besides, the only candidate that one is allowed to dickride is Obama.

*For example, when Bernie feels strongly about socialism, income inequality, minimum wage, voting rights, taxation, international relations, public services, etc., he has no problem shouting. Regardless of how correct he is on some issues, he has no problem shouting. But, the minute that Hillary supports gun control, he chides her that all the yelling won't solve anything. My first thought is that it is a giant double standard based only his views. If he supports the issue, then he can yell about it, but if he doesn't then you must talk with utmost politeness. In many ways, it is a subtle way of saying "my issues are serious, yours are not" and it is very disingenuous. My second thought about it is how would the audience react if Hillary or Obama shouted like Bernie? Don't answer that, I'll tell you, Hillary or Obama would be pilloried as an uppity bitch and an angry black man, respectively. I am not saying it is intentional sexism or racism on Bernie's part, but I do think he is benefiting from subconscious attitudes regarding race and gender, and I do not like it, although I cannot fault him for his audience respond to him.

**After the voter data scandal, Bernie had no problem fanning the flames of conspiracy theories that the DNC has it out for him to fundraise $1 million. I also think that it is very important to remember through that whole fiasco that the data is proprietary information of the DNC, that Sanders' campaign shirked the rules, and that Hillary was the victim. Yet, I doubt these facts were remembered when people donated that $1 million.

***There is no debating that Bernie has a race problem. He has no problem gathering legions of white socialists who are young and want change, but he lacks cross-race appeal. Little things like this do not help him. The cavalier attitude of his supporters towards race (shouting slurs and "all lives matter" after BLM protesters hi-jacked his rally is a good example). Nonetheless, back to the vote on the amendment, so much for this great liberal who always votes the right way, regardless of political expediency.

**** Remember back in 2009 and 2010 when Obama had sixty democratic Senators and a majority in the House, yet it still took forever to pass ObamaCare. The delay was not due to Republican opposition, although that certainly contributed. It was largely due to having problems getting the democrats on board with the bill. Bernie and Hillary have been in Washington for almost 30 years. Essentially, all of the superdelegates have met the two of them at some point, and there is a strong break for Hillary in this regard. It is due to Bernie alienating people he'll need to pass legislation, and Clinton working with and assisting those very same people. If Bernie cannot get these people on board with his agenda, the he is severely hampered in the results that he can obtain. Rhetoric is good, but I'm thinking in terms of results that the hypothetical president would obtain. Which is why I've noted it before, that ironically I am to the left of Bernie.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline nickiknack

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8049 on: December 27, 2015, 02:41:15 pm »
So you continue to hijack the thread, then?? Why don't you just make a thread entitled "Why I'm a Hillary Fangirl, and you should be one too" and get it over with. Also what she did was lame and pandering, I'm quite tired of the whole can't call her out on her bs, but if it was GOP candidate it would be a whole different story. It was lame, and still would be lame no matter who said it. She is more less trying too hard, and that's why it comes off as such.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 02:56:46 pm by nickiknack »

Art Vandelay

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8050 on: December 27, 2015, 03:09:55 pm »
And none of this is getting into the cult of personality that has evolved around him. In many ways, I want him not to become president purely because I will need a lot of alcohol to survive "feeling the bern" for 4, or god forbid 8, years. Of course, I'll vote for him if it comes to that, but I really wish the internet would stop being "Kitties, porn, and Bernie" and just go back to being "kittens and porn."
Like you need any such excuse to drink a shitload of booze.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8051 on: December 27, 2015, 03:22:32 pm »
*lights the fuse*

Ironbite- y'all ready for this?

Offline nickiknack

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8052 on: December 27, 2015, 03:24:14 pm »
*lights the fuse*

Ironbite- y'all ready for this?

MY BODY IS READY!!!

Offline Ghoti

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8053 on: December 27, 2015, 03:33:16 pm »
*lights the fuse*

Ironbite- y'all ready for this?
Long Live The Queen.

Burn fire! Hellfire! Now Anita, its your turn! Choose GamerGate, or your pyre!
Be mine or you will buuurn!!

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8054 on: December 27, 2015, 04:36:26 pm »
*lights the fuse*

Ironbite- y'all ready for this?

This looks interesting.

Like you need any such excuse to drink a shitload of booze.

That is a fair point.

So you continue to hijack the thread, then?? Why don't you just make a thread entitled "Why I'm a Hillary Fangirl, and you should be one too" and get it over with. Also what she did was lame and pandering, I'm quite tired of the whole can't call her out on her bs, but if it was GOP candidate it would be a whole different story. It was lame, and still would be lame no matter who said it. She is more less trying too hard, and that's why it comes off as such.

First, mods can separate the threads. I figured since the last two pages of this one were off topic, then it would be best to continue the discussion here while proposing the separation. Which is exactly what I did. If they support my proposal, then they can separate it and life goes on. Otherwise, we stay here and the topic will eventually go back to WSJ. Such is the workings of the internet.

Second, just because I support her does not mean I am a fangirl. That is the difference between me and you. Hillary says something stupid (like Snowden should be jailed) and I say "that is stupid." Hillary takes underhanded stances in 2008, I call her underhanded (Bernie does so today, I give him the same treatment). I call it as I see it. I have no problem labeling Clinton as an overly pragmatic politician who will pander to those interests to get things done (like Obama), but will often wind up with less than perfect legislation (like Obamacare). I support Hillary because I feel she can get the most done to help people in their day to day lives. That is the extent of how much I care for her. Though, admittedly, the idea of a female president who addresses feminist issues is something that I enjoy about her campaign, but not to the point to blindly follow her.

In contrast, I think you are a fangirl of Bernie. I state in the other thread that I support Clinton while acknowledging her faults in response to you saying all Hillary supporters are "in denial," and I do so in very fair and polite terms. You respond with "are you trying to fight me or something?" Yes, because this is so something I am gonna fight about. [/sarcasm] I try to be very understanding about those supporting Bernie by downplaying the extent of my criticisms. I state explicitly that I do not hold anything against you seeing this as purely a difference in opinion. When I opined about Bernie in a manner that wasn't favorable, you would jump down my throat. You call me a corporate sellout, shifting the goalposts time after time to the point that your only justification is that I support free trade. Bernie misspeaks in the first debate saying "women should take time off work after birth with paid leave." The crux being that it is something that only women should do (what about gay couples who adopt and need time to stay home and care for children?). I readily give Bernie the benefit of the doubt saying that he misspoke and I don't hold it against him. You internalize his misspeak saying that "of course women should" while lashing out at others (Gyeonghwa) for taking exception to the statement on Facebook. To be honest, I really don't care about the way you've been acting. I think it is childish and insecure, but I'm not angry, sad, hurt, or offended (though the sellout comment did offend, it's whatever). I'm willing to move past all of this if you are.

And if someone on the GOP said it, I would give them the same props. I wouldn't vote for a GOP clown, but a good debate moment is a good debate moment. Chiefly, a few months ago, Rubio said to Jeb "you're just attacking me because we're running for the same office and someone told you that it would help your campaign." I thought that line was a very mature, level-headed, and concise rebuttal. As an aside, if someone held a gun to my head and made me vote for a Republican, it would probably be Rubio or Graham, because at least they can tell the truth some of the time. I gave similar props to Bernie for his "damn emails" comment in the first debate and O'Malley's "Immigrant bashing carnival barker" from the second. Know what those two statements have in common with "may the force be with you? They were the most talked about and favorably received moments of the respective debates. This isn't a loyal Hillary-Fangirl thing, this is giving credit where credit is do.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?