Author Topic: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?  (Read 5367 times)

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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 09:34:30 pm »
European here.

I think Fpqxz is right. We are not as big on free speech as you Americans are. Your free speech is probably the most important thing in your community, your system is built upon it.  We are less for letting everyone speak their mind, and more for protecting the people. An example :
Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, art.1, pas.1 :
„Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar. Sie zu achten und zu schützen ist Verpflichtung aller staatlichen Gewalt.“
Rough translation : "A humans dignity is untouchable. The government is obligated to respect and protect it."

Therefore, if something goes against the dignity of a human, it can be stopped.

But what is dignity? It's a somewhat intangible concept what makes one person feel indignity won't necessarily make everyone else feel it, even if most people take something as indignity one person may be undisturbed by it. In some cases where most people feel their dignity has been disrespected it may be socially optimal for them all to just shrug it off instead, it's just that they're not choosing to do so and so it may be better for the government to nudge people into not making too big of a deal over something. Wouldn't it be safer to specify standards of what constitutes "dignity" directly into the law rather than leaving it to interpretation.
"Speech" is a lot more concrete.

In Germany prostitution is legal. Some people think that prostitution goes against human dignity. I'm not saying dignity shouldn't be considered in making laws at all but the law itself should specify the ways in which it is being considered. Just saying "dignity" which is a very abstract human concept leaves a great deal to one's own (and so to future generations who may or may not have the same ideas) interpretation.

Granted, maybe there's a whole wealth of legal opinions and philosophies (I know Germany is famous for philosophy) on human dignity so that when that was written it was more concrete than it would appear to me just as things in our Constitution you would find vague probably seem a lot more solid to us(at least those of us who study constitutional law) based off of what the Founding Fathers said. Are there any texts in particular that are drawn off of in order to interpret the "human dignity" clause?

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Hatespeech is outlawed here in Germany. While there are obvious drawbacks, there are also positive points. No Westboro Baptist Church, for example.

Haven't hate speech laws been used at times against left-wing organizations making critiques about white power saying this is racist to white people even though they're just criticizing the racial biases among the elite. They've been used against people using the swastika in a sarcastic way or as a way of putting down Nazis (I heard there was a bust at an anti-fascist organization that had pictured the swastika being thrown away).

And then what if someone honestly denies the Holocaust but is honestly not hateful or prejudice against anyone? A person could believe in holocaust denial but put the entire blame just on the allied powers and hold the Jews harmless for 'making it up'. A person might be motivated to believe this because they don't want to believe humanity could really do such a thing. That doesn't show hate, but it does show a naive view of human nature.

Comparing the Holocaust to prostitution is a stretch...
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Offline MadCatTLX

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 09:55:50 pm »

And then what if someone honestly denies the Holocaust but is honestly not hateful or prejudice against anyone? A person could believe in holocaust denial but put the entire blame just on the allied powers and hold the Jews harmless for 'making it up'. A person might be motivated to believe this because they don't want to believe humanity could really do such a thing. That doesn't show hate, but it does show a naive view of human nature.


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Offline mellenORL

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 10:09:53 pm »
Holocaust denial is a sort of "gateway drug" to soften up people's reasoning powers into accepting racist apologist propaganda. White racists don't deny the Shoa for any reason other than to further justify their hatred of Jews (and Gays, and Blacks, and etc.) whether they believe the Holocaust happened or not. Liars calling their intended victims liars, to justify their aggression and to encourage others to join the fray, or to not care enough to intervene. In other words, Holocaust denial is just a preliminary to the propaganda tactics Hitler employed to create his dream of a White-only world.
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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 10:30:14 pm »
Holocaust denial is a sort of "gateway drug" to soften up people's reasoning powers into accepting racist apologist propaganda. White racists don't deny the Shoa for any reason other than to further justify their hatred of Jews (and Gays, and Blacks, and etc.) whether they believe the Holocaust happened or not. Liars calling their intended victims liars, to justify their aggression and to encourage others to join the fray, or to not care enough to intervene. In other words, Holocaust denial is just a preliminary to the propaganda tactics Hitler employed to create his dream of a White-only world.

^This.
Also, this is off topic, but what is your avatar?
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 11:46:40 pm »
I chose my avatar and tagline as a provocation to any lurker fundie trolls...haven't gotten any bites  yet.
The pic is a section of a Dante's Inferno inspired painting. The duck bill demon is funny/disturbing, and the fact the "altar" looks like dice, makes the whole scene remind me of the stupidity of most gambling games.
I wanted the tag to read, "I'll Butthurt you on the altar of reason", but obviously it would not fit. Maybe I could change it to Butthurt on Die (single for dice), and be really obtuse? Nah - somebody will think it's in Dutch or sumtin'. Anyway, I'll probably change it to a pic of one of my dogs at some point, just to lighten it up.
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I sympathize completely. However, to use against us. Let me ask you a troll. On the one who pulled it. But here's the question: where do I think it might as well have stepped out of all people would cling to a layman.

Offline Fpqxz

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2013, 12:09:50 am »
European here.

I think Fpqxz is right.

Someone on this board actually agrees with me?  Well, I suppose there's a first time for everything.

As long as I can remember, I've been told what horrible crimes against humanity have transpired during the reign of Hitler and that we should do everything possible to stop it from happening again. During my schooltime we got different sources from that time, and we visited the concentration camp in Neuengamme. I also talked with my grandmother, who grew up during that time. Her whole life she said that she didn't know about the Holocaust, but when she was very ill and we thought she would die, she told me that the people had a very good picture of what was happening, but the media just said that the Jews were evil. And as she said : If you are told something for a long time by almost everyone, you start to believe it.

So, you may ask yourself what I want to say with this incoherent babble, so let me summarize it : I've been growing up learning of the horrible things that can grow from hate. Therefore, for me, protecting dignity is more important that absolute free speech. Therefore I'm in favor of laws against Holocaust denial.

I probably should have elaborated a little better on my earlier point.  Continental Europe--Germany and Austria in particular--was subjected to the Nazi propaganda program set forth by Goebbels et al. for a solid twelve years.  The result was that many of the German people either approved of the Holocaust or actively participate in it, and many in the occupied countries collaborated with the Nazis.  The governments of these countries have a legitimate policy interest in preventing such a catastrophe from happening again.

Now of course, the USA has its own history of racism and violence, but our values, as enshrined in the law, are a bit different than those of the European peoples.  Here, we let bigots say what they want, and then allow the FBI to covertly monitor them.   ;)
Read some real news:  Allgov.com, JURIST

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Offline KZN02

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2013, 01:11:44 am »
In my opinion, I believe unsanitary and other health conditions was a holocaust in itself in the concentration camps, but at the very least I know something bad was going down. My dad doesn't believe it due to having read history books from China and the US and noticing the differences between them and that he says the Germans were meticulous in recording details and would have had something on it. My mom meanwhile believes the Holocaust and tells me about the Jewish refugees coming into China.

Of course, in the end, it's a matter of the truth and we need people to give their critique and evidence so we an establish that.

I'm sure your dad is a normally intelligent guy, but he did not delve very deep, or he would have come across the fact that the Nazis were in fact - yes - zealous accountants of every detail of the MILLIONS of people they arrested and killed.

The main reason being to prevent pilfering by soldiers, camp guards, and kapos, and to plan logistics in salvaging monetary value from all that huge mass of goods and materials (gold teeth alone came out to be tons, in total!)

All prisoners' personal effects of any value were sorted, counted, weighed and sold. When people were arrested their homes were stripped of all valuables, which were carefully documented and processed with paper trails for the same reason. The Nazis' war money was to a significant extent wrung out of the lives of their own condemned citizens. Those same prisoners were also a drain on food resources, and so were starved and worked to death, and later, as the war dragged on, the prisoners were killed at the fastest rate that could be managed to save resources and complete their "sacred" goal of ridding Europe of Jews and others the Nazis wanted gone forever. The concentrtion camps eventually numbered in the thousands, and the camp system of extermination through slave labor and deprivation had been employed by the Nazis for almost 10 years by wars' end.

The prisoner asset and salvage accounting files were found all over after the war, filled hundreds of traincars, and were used to prosecute war criminals at the Nuremburg War Crime Tribunals. The Nazis own greed and paranoid attention to detail over valuables was compelling testimony to having in fact commited genocide. The Nazi hierarchy were quite proud of the Holocaust.
Thanks for respecting my dad. He's actually very smart, having gone to college to learn computer programming to support our family, even if he typed with only 2 fingers. Although he has to delegate to me on how to stop the TV from recording a show while he was responsible for setting up all our computers and the programs running on them.

On that note, what have holocaust deniers said about those records you mentioned?
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2013, 01:26:02 am »
What if someone really made up a genocide for some motivation or another in the future but then because of established precedent governments in Europe ban speech saying it didn't happen?
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Offline Julian

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2013, 06:00:24 am »
But I'm still against laws against Holocaust denial, not just because it invites a slippery slope against other unpopular speech but because what if a real pseudogenocide were to happen?
Errr, The laws against Holocaust denial (note the capital letter) are against Holocaust denial (note the capital letter), not genocide denial.

Every genocide the world's ever seen is denied by some set of twats or other - to varying degrees of success - which means some of them were exceedingly successful. And as for pseudo-genocides, are you talking about dumbass propaganda like pro-life caricatures, or fabricated stories (state sponsored propaganda) for incidents that didn't exist in order to vilify specific ethnic groups (the "perpetrators"). If so, you really need to look at what constitutes genocide as opposed to mere acts of belligerence, aggression, war crimes, etc., where huge amounts of people die, but it still isn't genocide. You seriously can't fake that shit, no matter how much the appallingly ignorant, white-supremacists nutbag historical revisionists like to pretend you could.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: What If Someday A Real Pseudogenocide Happens?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 11:26:30 am »

[/quote]
Thanks for respecting my dad. He's actually very smart, having gone to college to learn computer programming to support our family, even if he typed with only 2 fingers. Although he has to delegate to me on how to stop the TV from recording a show while he was responsible for setting up all our computers and the programs running on them.

On that note, what have holocaust deniers said about those records you mentioned?
[/quote]

The white front and neo nazi leaders simply don't mention the Nuremburg trials evidence, at least as to how immense the amount of it was gathered, call the thousands of afadavits and hundreds of eye witness testimonies faked. Their fans just accept this because they are too lazy or simple minded to research for themselves. Further, the neo nazi apologists claim the many original films made of death camps and gas chambers and crematoria ovens was from just one or two places, re-edited and re-made distributed to look like hundreds of documentaries, and that the scenes were staged with dug-up bodies from mass graves, that the prisoners died of disease outbreaks that affected the guards etc. too. Basically, they just make it out to be a Jewish World Banker & Media Moguls propaganda campaign to besmirch their idol, Hitler. In fact, the neo nazi insiders love the Holocaust, revel in watching the gory, horrific scenes from the death camps. They just like to gain subscriber money from flat-earth level dumbasses by white washing all the shittty.
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I sympathize completely. However, to use against us. Let me ask you a troll. On the one who pulled it. But here's the question: where do I think it might as well have stepped out of all people would cling to a layman.