What Determines Consciousness? Could Everything Have It?

[Witchyjoshy]

Considering the nature of AI, it would be more like putting the AI temporarily to sleep until the game calls it back.

I think one of the biggest indicators of consciousness is the ability to overthink what consciousness actually is </sarcasm>

In the vein of a soul, however... let me put it this way.  We often (and for good reason) think of trees and plants as being "less alive" than us.  However, what makes sentience the determinator of how alive one is?  A tree may not be a creature, but it responds to various forms of input and responds with appropriate (or just plain weird) output.  Incoming rain?  Release a bunch of oils!  Incoming tornado? Turn leaves upside down to minimize damage and pull.  Need water in this part of the tree?  Sort water to that area in the same way a computer sorts data to various parts of a hard drive.

Trees respond to what we animals would call pain -- cut a tree and you can actually harm its health.  Cut off a healthy, living branch and you can kill it from shock.

Is a tree sentient?  As far as humanity knows, no.  Is a tree alive?  As alive as any human being.

[QueenofHearts]

Trees respond to what we animals would call pain

Citation, please?

[Cerim Treascair]

Trees respond to what we animals would call pain

Citation, please?

Cause and effect from how the tree reacts after the fact.  Remove too much bark, and it's akin to skinning something alive.  The tree will often die from the removal, just as a human would die from the shock.

[Witchyjoshy]

Trees respond to what we animals would call pain

Citation, please?

Cause and effect from how the tree reacts after the fact.  Remove too much bark, and it's akin to skinning something alive.  The tree will often die from the removal, just as a human would die from the shock.

That.  The reason I said "what we animals would call pain" was to indicate that I'm not necessarily saying the tree itself FEELS pain, but responds to things that would cause it in us animals.

Such as the aforementioned "dying of shock" from having a healthy branch cut off.

Also, some plants release a gas into the air when damaged in some way.  No one knows why, but it's a "pain response" of sorts.  With emphasis on the "".

[QueenofHearts]

Trees respond to what we animals would call pain

Citation, please?

Cause and effect from how the tree reacts after the fact.  Remove too much bark, and it's akin to skinning something alive.  The tree will often die from the removal, just as a human would die from the shock.

Even if such a tree exhibits such cause and effect, that does not mean it feels pain. Those are more likely chemical or physical reactions to external stimuli, which can very well occur without the tree feeling pain. Pain is a stimulus that motivates an animal to move for sake of its own survival. Trees can not move. So why they would evolve such an elaborate system makes little to no sense. It offers nothing of value while taking up precious resources. Further, trees lack a central nervous system required to feel pain.

Next, removing bark is a very poor metaphor. The tree will die from neither shock nor pain, but because you removed a large chunk of it from the larger body. If I go out to my car and remove random parts from my engine, the car won't start, but it never felt pain. The same can be said for many appliances from computers to refrigerators, but that doesn't amount to pain.

That.  The reason I said "what we animals would call pain" was to indicate that I'm not necessarily saying the tree itself FEELS pain, but responds to things that would cause it in us animals.

Zach, words have meanings. If you say "plants experience/respond what we animals call pain" it's goalpost shifting for you to take a more abstract response to focusing on the "respond" part of your point. Pain is the sensation of feeling hurt. So if you say they respond to pain, then for that statement to stand, trees have to feel hurt and respond for that reason. That is what you said, trees can get hurt and respond. Further, not all animals experience pain, many insects do not have a central nervous system developed enough to feel pain. Reaction in general can and does exist independent of reaction to pain.

Also, some plants release a gas into the air when damaged in some way.

Again, reaction to stimuli does not cause pain. Reaction to stimuli you think would hurt does not constitute pain. Maybe you should have worded your statement ("Trees respond to what we animals would call pain") a little better.

[Canadian Mojo]

A lot of plants are actually capable of limited movement, although the bulk of them do so in response to light in order to maximize photosynthesis. A field of sunflowers will keep their flowers facing the sun the entire day as it travels east to west and repeat that process day after day until the seeds mature. There are some plants that move far more rapidly and for other reasons such as Mimosa which folds up its leaves when touched, and the Venus fly trap.

I'm not trying to imply that plants feel pain, just pointing out that it is wrong to say that they don't move; their systems are far more intricate then most people give them credit for.

[TheReasonator]

The thing with pain is how can we know that any animals or plants feel pain in an emotional sense i.e. how can we know that their pain actually hurts?

Perhaps it is just a signal that says "danger, adjust something to avoid it" or even just an input that dictates through its working through the animal or plant's mechanisms "behavior" in response to the stimulus and isn't associated with any emotion or even perhaps conscious even basic perceptual awareness.
Or perhaps inherent in receiving a signal that says "danger" or that causes such reactions is the judgment of it as "negative" or else they wouldn't be responding to it in a way that tries to defend themselves from their environment. And it only becomes a "positive" feeling if the mind is so well developed as to be able to just decide after getting the pain: "I'm going to evaluate this positively/neutrally" or to make this decision with the assistance of context such as in S&M situations where the masochist knows the pain doesn't indicate real danger.

[Søren]

I think its very well possible that plants feel pain, they do react to stimuli, especially pressure sensitivity i.e, the venis fly trap

There is also this little thing which is quite fascinating http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16916474
In that link they show how plants can warn each other (not sure how relevant, but why not)

Also reasonator, there is a chemical in a body called Substance P, and this is thought to be the main biochemical instigator for the reception of pain. Also nocireceptors are generally found in all mammals and even in invertebrates. However, I cant seem to find any info on plants containing nocireceptors

EDIT: Also, these movements, such as the snap of the fly trap or the movement towards the sun, are classified as Nastic Movements, and they are generally not attributed to nerves but through osmotic pressure in the cell http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/nasticmovements.html

[Auggziliary]

The thing with pain is how can we know that any animals or plants feel pain in an emotional sense i.e. how can we know that their pain actually hurts?

Perhaps it is just a signal that says "danger, adjust something to avoid it" or even just an input that dictates through its working through the animal or plant's mechanisms "behavior" in response to the stimulus and isn't associated with any emotion or even perhaps conscious even basic perceptual awareness.
Or perhaps inherent in receiving a signal that says "danger" or that causes such reactions is the judgment of it as "negative" or else they wouldn't be responding to it in a way that tries to defend themselves from their environment. And it only becomes a "positive" feeling if the mind is so well developed as to be able to just decide after getting the pain: "I'm going to evaluate this positively/neutrally" or to make this decision with the assistance of context such as in S&M situations where the masochist knows the pain doesn't indicate real danger.

I don't see how that message would be any different than our pain. I mean, our pain is basically just the body saying "Stop that. Please. Fuck."