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Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: armandtanzarian on January 28, 2012, 12:38:34 pm

Title: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: armandtanzarian on January 28, 2012, 12:38:34 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/26/alain-de-botton-temple-atheism

Here's an idea. To combat what Alain de Botton calls Richard Dawkins' "destructive" form of atheism, he plans to build a temple, as a testament to... what exactly?
Quote
The philosopher and writer Alain de Botton is proposing to build a 46-metre (151ft) tower to celebrate a "new atheism" as an antidote to what he describes as Professor Richard Dawkins's "aggressive" and "destructive" approach to non-belief.

Rather than attack religion, De Botton said he wants to borrow the idea of awe-inspiring buildings that give people a better sense of perspective on life.

"Normally a temple is to Jesus, Mary or Buddha, but you can build a temple to anything that's positive and good," he said. "That could mean a temple to love, friendship, calm or perspective. Because of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens atheism has become known as a destructive force. But there are lots of people who don't believe but aren't aggressive towards religions."

I serious doubt that aping the tactics of the other side is a good way to promote atheism. If any, building a visible, hard-to-miss structure probably reinforces the idea about some religious people that atheism is simply another religion based on science. And also, how is Dawkins' style of atheism any more destructive or confrontational than this sort of grandiose gesture?
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: QueenofHearts on January 28, 2012, 12:46:48 pm
No, No, NO!!! The intelligent sea otters say the Allied Atheist Allegiance is correct and will smash your skulls like a clam on their tummy if you disagree.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on January 28, 2012, 12:58:20 pm
Quote
That could mean a temple to love, friendship, calm or perspective.

Am I the only one who thought "pony temple" when I read this?
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: rosenewock21 on January 28, 2012, 01:27:14 pm
Quote
That could mean a temple to love, friendship, calm or perspective.

Am I the only one who thought "pony temple" when I read this?

I wasn't thinking it before but I am now.

Edit for grammar.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: JohnE on January 28, 2012, 01:59:24 pm
Silly me, I thought one of the common criticisms of religion was that it spends so much money on big fancy churches, money that could be used to actually improve people's lives.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on January 28, 2012, 02:02:04 pm
Let's show atheism is good by doing what religious people do? At least Richard Dawkins set up an atheist charity. A million pounds for some eyesore temple that will confirm the idea that atheism is "just another religion"? Thanks, thanks a bunch...
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Old Viking on January 28, 2012, 02:50:18 pm
I once built a temple to drunkenness and debauchery.  It was a makeshift affair, really, mostly scrap plywood and duct tape.   People said it did little to support my cause.  And the zoning board was truly pissed.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Shane for Wax on January 28, 2012, 03:10:55 pm
An atheist temple? Build a science museum instead... (http://twitter.com/Nednus/statuses/162919936950403073)
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on January 28, 2012, 03:27:30 pm
An atheist temple? Build a science museum instead... (http://twitter.com/Nednus/statuses/162919936950403073)

Sure, why not?  Fundies  would still call it a temple and still insist we worship at the altar of science/evolution/Darwin/Satan.  The only major difference is that a museum would be USEFUL.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 28, 2012, 03:27:40 pm
I may intensely dislike Dawkins, but for right now, this guy has earned my ire :|

Why would you even think this is a good idea!?
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on January 28, 2012, 03:44:28 pm
I may intensely dislike Dawkins, but for right now, this guy has earned my ire :|

Why would you even think this is a good idea!?

Agreed. I don't like how he's completely polarized the creation-evolution debate by drawing a dichotomy between "religious illiterates" and "atheistic intellectuals." Neil Tyson called him out on being kind of a dick once.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Shane for Wax on January 28, 2012, 04:00:52 pm
I've known Dawkins was a dick forever. It sealed it with the skepchick thing and the sneering lines in his book The Ancestor's Tale. I really don't think this will help anything.

@B-man: indeed. We could use more museums.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: rookie on January 28, 2012, 04:06:29 pm
Wouldn't it be better to take that million pounds and distribute it to the 100 poorest families in England? Have it being used for education, securing a place to live, and a wardrobe? (Serious about that last part. It's easier to get a job if you're dressed well.) And then let the people you give the money to know that you don't want them going to any church they don't already go to and they don't have to even nominally say they give their lives to any invisible higher being?
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Kit Walker on January 28, 2012, 04:40:41 pm
Points I agree with him on:

1) Atheism needs a better spokesman, though of course any spokesman is unofficial, than Dr. Richard Dawkins. He's a smart man, a fine scientists (so far as I know)...but he seems to outright try to offend any and all religious people. While offending the conservative religious loonies (regardless of persuasion) is a worthy pass time, there are legitimately liberal religious folks who have a "live and let live" attitude. Attacking them and their beliefs doesn't really make you much better (in my book) than a evangelical whacko preaching to the unwilling.

2) If there were a kind of a publicly visible "atheist center", atheists might have a higher q rating with the general populace. Since it isn't a religion and isn't organized, there's an element of...mystery, I guess, to religious people. Imagine if some kind of Christian version of Richard Dawkins was the only or primary exposure you had to Christians...I'd be bit less than anxious to meet folks like him in my day to day.

Where he goes wrong:

1) It only bolsters the case for atheism being some kind of counter religion to Christianity.

2) No one will use it.

We also shouldn't be associating science with atheism too strongly.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Whore of Spamylon on January 28, 2012, 04:49:57 pm
No, No, NO!!! The intelligent sea otters say the Allied Atheist Allegiance is correct and will smash your skulls like a clam on their tummy if you disagree.

So...it begins.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: N. De Plume on January 28, 2012, 10:24:12 pm
Quote
That could mean a temple to love, friendship, calm or perspective.

Am I the only one who thought "pony temple" when I read this?
Actually, I got thinking more about Legend of Zelda style temples.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Lithp on January 28, 2012, 10:31:45 pm
It seems to me like it isn't uncommon for self-proclaimed atheists to get Hype Aversion from the New Atheist movement, & try to be overaccomodating of religion. For example, if you've ever run into that guy who said, "I'm an atheist, but what's the big deal of having faculty-lead prayer in schools? Why are you trying to start a culture war?"

Does it make sense? No. Do I see where it comes from? Yes. What do I propose the solution is? Recognizing that you're never going to find a Patron Saint of Atheism. Skepchick, Dawkins, Hitchens, et al all have their good & bad points &, like any philosophical movement, they each put emphasis on different things.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: VirtualStranger on January 28, 2012, 10:37:57 pm
Richard Dawkins was put on my shit list after being a over-entitled, privileged, condescending dick to Rebecca Watson.

That said, he's done far more good for the atheist "movement" than a giant fucking temple will ever do.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Lithp on January 28, 2012, 10:41:55 pm
Am I the only one who really doesn't care about that incident? Shit was stupid, but it's over now.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on January 28, 2012, 11:52:19 pm
For the record I'm still a fan of Richard Dawkins, though I do concede dickiness on the Skepchick matter.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: N. De Plume on January 28, 2012, 11:59:59 pm
I really don’t give a shit about Dawkins one way or the other. Though most of the time I hear about him, he is taking crap from some fundie or another, so I just wind up being on his side by default.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Lithp on January 29, 2012, 12:12:41 am
I think the initial complaint was silly, Dawkins way overreacted, boycotting him over it makes no damn sense, & in the end Conservapedia got the last laugh.

So, to recap:

Quote
Shit was stupid
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 29, 2012, 12:30:04 am
Dawkins is a haughty ass, in general.  He makes good points, don't get me wrong, but he's haughty and an ass.

I'll acknowledge his good points, but I'm not going to stand with him.  Ever.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on January 29, 2012, 12:43:12 am
I'm afraid I missed this Dawkins drama thing you're all taking about.

I like avoiding drama.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Lithp on January 29, 2012, 01:27:37 am
Rebecca Watson is a female atheist (duh) & originator of a blog called "Skepchick," who wants to promote gender equality in the "skeptic community." Anywho, she was at some kind of atheist convention. After the fact, she made a video blog detailing her visit, part of which explained being hit on by a man in an elevator. She, I guess, wanted to advise that people not do that. Of course, being a blog entry, it was over-analyzed to all Hell, resulting in an incredibly stupid flame war (redundant). Dawkins, who was also there, had heard her speak about sexism in the atheist community, & picked up on this whole thing evidently thought she was being melodramatic, & proceeded to compare her situation to women's rights violations in radical Islamic countries. They had a debate, neither one being persuaded by the other, & she & a lot of her supporters basically boycotted him after the fact. Conservapedia has an article on it called "Elevatorgate," which it uses to justify the claim that most atheists are socially dysfunctional men, & to laugh at atheists "attacking each other" in general. I'm sure you could find a lot of other blog entries about it, as well.

Quote
So, to recap:

Shit was stupid.

Dawkins is an ass, but his whole overarching point is that it's not necessary, nor inherently desirable, to be nice during a debate. Sometimes it gets him into trouble, but I can appreciate that general approach.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on January 29, 2012, 02:43:59 am
Am I the only one who really doesn't care about that incident? Shit was stupid, but it's over now.
Yeah, this, basically.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Art Vandelay on January 29, 2012, 03:53:27 am
Trying to turn atheism into a psuedo-religion is the most asinine idea since some moron decided that sultanas would be a good addition to ice cream.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on January 29, 2012, 04:35:36 am
Why not put that money towards funding education for underprivileged students? If we want to further rationality, education is the way to go.

Dawkins is very hit or miss. I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says, but there are times when he annoys the hell out of me, particularly with some of his more condescending comments.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: RavynousHunter on January 29, 2012, 05:42:22 am
Dawkins can be a prick, sure, but at least he sticks by his fuckin guns when the goin gets tough, which is a lot more than what can be said for many folks, religious and otherwise.

That said, really?  Motherfucker, we don't need a temple.  We NEED food, clothes, and bloody education.

Jesus, for an "enlightened" atheist, this bastard sure is stupid.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Sigmaleph on January 29, 2012, 10:38:59 am
For all his faults, Dawkins is a thousand times preferable to the faitheist accommodationist "the Gnu Atheists are mean" crowd.

And that includes de Botton.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Witchyjoshy on January 29, 2012, 06:17:15 pm
Look, I don't like rabid antitheists who can't leave other people alone JUST for being religious.

Everything else on the atheist/anti-theist spectrum is generally just peachy.  Even the antitheists that really really really hate religion.

However, Dawkins is too much of an ass for me to like him.  I like his mind, I just hate his attitude.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: rookie on January 30, 2012, 12:17:44 pm
So it's settled then. We take that million pounds and go find a decent spokesperson. Maybe give zir a couple years operating budget, set zim up on maybe some of those Sunday morning talking heads shows, try to get moderate atheism more mainstream and accepted. Sounds like Dawkins is out. So who does that leave? Penn Jillette maybe?
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: rosenewock21 on January 30, 2012, 12:20:51 pm
So it's settled then. We take that million pounds and go find a decent spokesperson. Maybe give zir a couple years operating budget, set zim up on maybe some of those Sunday morning talking heads shows, try to get moderate atheism more mainstream and accepted. Sounds like Dawkins is out. So who does that leave? Penn Jillette maybe?

If you get Pen Jillette does that mean non-Atheists are welcome? It would be the open minded thing to do.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: rookie on January 30, 2012, 12:29:46 pm
Sure, you can come. In fact, I would encourage it. Recruiting is where we get new atheists from.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: RavynousHunter on January 30, 2012, 06:04:30 pm
So it's settled then. We take that million pounds and go find a decent spokesperson. Maybe give zir a couple years operating budget, set zim up on maybe some of those Sunday morning talking heads shows, try to get moderate atheism more mainstream and accepted. Sounds like Dawkins is out. So who does that leave? Penn Jillette maybe?

Eeh, no.  Not because Penn's loud or obnoxious, but because he's basically an anarcho-capitalist.  Don't want someone like that representing me, that's for damn sure.  I say, we don't do like our neighbors and elect a chosen spokesperson or leader, but let each individual speak for themselves.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Sigmaleph on January 30, 2012, 06:43:53 pm
So it's settled then. We take that million pounds and go find a decent spokesperson. Maybe give zir a couple years operating budget, set zim up on maybe some of those Sunday morning talking heads shows, try to get moderate atheism more mainstream and accepted. Sounds like Dawkins is out. So who does that leave? Penn Jillette maybe?

Eeh, no.  Not because Penn's loud or obnoxious, but because he's basically an anarcho-capitalist.  Don't want someone like that representing me, that's for damn sure.  I say, we don't do like our neighbors and elect a chosen spokesperson or leader, but let each individual speak for themselves.
This. You can't treat atheism like a single group with a single voice. Hell, even the so-called "four Horsemen" had important disagreements with each other, and that's nothing compared to the disagreements between them and accommodationists like de Botton or Be Scofield. And between all of those and the I-don't-give-a-crap-ists. And so on and so forth.
Dawkins does not speak for atheists. He doesn't even speak for the "New Atheists". He speaks for himself, and for those that agree with him. Sometimes, he says "There's no good evidence for the existence of God" and we all agree with him. Sometimes, he says "Rebecca Watson is whining too much about the elevator incident" and even PZ Myers rushes to say he's wrong. That's how it should be.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on January 30, 2012, 07:20:51 pm
You know, the're that whole thing about herding atheists being like herding cats, but I wish it was pony.

I'm going to pretend it is about herding ponies, which are hard to herd as far as I know.  Which is ironic considering that the welcome for new bronies is "Welcome to the Herd."

Wait, what were we talking about again?
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: deadpandoubter on January 30, 2012, 07:57:50 pm
I'd herd dat.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Lithp on January 30, 2012, 09:51:30 pm
I'm with Sigmaleph, obviously. If someone tried to turn atheism into a dogmatic institution, it would be stupid. Of course Fundies are going to try & portray it that way anyway. Because they are stupid.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: rookie on January 31, 2012, 10:58:36 am


Eeh, no.  Not because Penn's loud or obnoxious, but because he's basically an anarcho-capitalist.  Don't want someone like that representing me, that's for damn sure.  I say, we don't do like our neighbors and elect a chosen spokesperson or leader, but let each individual speak for themselves.

Damn, do I suck at writing tongue in cheek. 
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: SimSim on January 31, 2012, 04:35:15 pm
I thought it was pretty obvious you weren't being serious. <shrugs>
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on January 31, 2012, 06:21:44 pm
I disagree with Penn on a few issues but overall I think he's way more courteous than these other guys who have been representing us. Penn won't call anyone a deluded idiot for believing in religion, but he won't instantly flip over just because someone asks nicely.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Sigmaleph on January 31, 2012, 06:59:35 pm
Damn, do I suck at writing tongue in cheek. 
Oops. Well, assume everything I wrote is directed at someone who actually believes atheism needs an official spokesperson.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: RavynousHunter on February 01, 2012, 05:30:56 pm


Eeh, no.  Not because Penn's loud or obnoxious, but because he's basically an anarcho-capitalist.  Don't want someone like that representing me, that's for damn sure.  I say, we don't do like our neighbors and elect a chosen spokesperson or leader, but let each individual speak for themselves.

Damn, do I suck at writing tongue in cheek.

Agh...sorry bout that.  It ain't you, brother, its the medium.  Text makes things like that very difficult to discern.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: RavynousHunter on February 03, 2012, 03:57:44 pm
I have no idea what you're talking about because I live in the real world, where no one cares about dashing rainbows or whatever.
Take comfort in the fact that this My Little Pony fad should burn itself out in a few months. These things always do (and thank fuck for that).
Just going to quietly second this, and the fact that a temple is a retarded idea. Now, a library dedicated to preserving all forms of literature and history (particularly those that fuckheads try to burn), that could be cool.

Well, one could argue that the internet is a modern-day Library of Alexandria.  Only with much greater (and more disturbing) scope and accessibility.
Title: Re: A Million Pound Atheist "Temple"
Post by: Shane for Wax on February 04, 2012, 01:29:33 am
Pony Derailment is here (http://forums.fstdt.net/religion-and-philosophy/ponies-derail/).